Absolute Predestination

[YeshuaFan]

Why is that? Define "free will" as you use it above. Is it the Calvinist definition which really means "totally depraved will", "will in 100% slavery to sin", "will that must obey its sinful nature", "will that is free in the sense of free to sin & do nothing but sin"? A will that can only sin is not free to not sin. It is a puppet of sin which God is responsible for. Therefore to send such people to an endless hell for what they are not responsible for is unjust & makes God a sadistic monster.

The lost sinner had been bound by their sin nature and enslaved, so that while free to choose still, limited to just what and how much still free to be able to choose!

 

[ClementofA]

Only those whom the Father chose to give to jesus to save shall be though!

"The Father loves the Son and has given all into His hand"

 

[ClementofA]

The lost sinner had been bound by their sin nature and enslaved, so that while free to choose still, limited to just what and how much still free to be able to choose!

Free only to sin is nothing but bondage & slavery as puppets! It's is not the real freedom to choose given by God, as in libertarian free will (LFW), which Calvinists deny!

The Calvinist definition of "free will" which really means "totally depraved will", "will in 100% slavery to sin", "will that must obey its sinful nature", "will that is free in the sense of free to sin & do nothing but sin". A will that can only sin is not free to not sin. It is a puppet of sin which God is responsible for. Therefore to send such people to an endless hell for what they are not responsible for is unjust & makes God a sadistic monster.

 

[ClementofA]

I posted:

Just because humans are conceived or born imperfect, or with a sinful nature, or some such thing that guarantees they will eventually sin if they don't die first, it does not follow they do not have libertarian free will.

You replied:

Actually, if I understand the term (LFW) correctly, that's exactly what it means. Libertarian free will means a man is free to act against his nature and God's predetermination.

There are different definitions of LFW. I didn't offer one. One view of LFW is it is a separate entity, ability or nature within man from his fallen nature, or , perhaps, even his will that is in bondage to sin. Man is made in God's image & likeness with a conscience. A second view of LFW is that it occurs when God enlightens & graces a human to make a choice either (a) to follow the light given or (b) to resist the light he has been given. Those are not just pretend options. The man can choose either (a) or (b). God doesn't know which LFW choice he will make, so it is not predetermined. In this view while man's nature & will is to some degree in bondage to sin & fallen, it is not completely so. And when enlightened & graced by God may make LFW choices.

Mt.23:37b how often did I WILL to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not WILL.

In Mt.23:37 we are told of men who resisted the will of the Lord. His will was not irresistible.

If grace was always irresistible, why do we read:

Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, also do you.

Even Christians can resist His grace:

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

LFW is essentially a crapshoot to see how this black box (free will) is going to decide at any given time. There are no rules or guidelines as to how a man will choose. It could be anything at any time.

LFW is not a "crapshoot", roll of the dice or a matter of pure luck. It is the Sovereign God given ability for a human to determine which of multiple options to choose. Though, perhaps, many of those (i.e. Calvinists) who wish to call LFW a "crapshoot" do so because they don't wish to take responsibility for their own choices. Calvinism reduces men to puppets whose sins are not their own fault, but God's fault. In essence it puts all the blame on God for human sins. And gives them an excuse for their own sins: "the devil made me do it". Yet Scripture says men are "without excuse".

Taking this line of thought to a logical extent - if God created everything, then everything is ultimately on God, right? At the "rubber meets road" perspective (i.e. from our point of view) your first sentence is the question that is answered by the gospel. Man is a puppet of sorts - a slave to sin. Ultimately, I think, the whole concept of LFW tends to the anarchical because every man ultimately serves something and/or someone. The question is not if he is free to (dis)obey, but who (or what) is it that he is obeying? LFW essentially replaces that "Master" with "(nothing)".

Why would an omnipotently loving God choose free will to be the determining factor of a man's salvation when mankind is so lost?

Otherwise you're like a computer operated robot God is making to love or hate Himself. So it's not really you doing the loving, it's God controlling His human puppet like a TV remote control to love Himself.

Would you prefer to (1) program a robot wife to say "I love you" to yourself, or (2) have a real wife say "I love you" from her own libertarian free will?

"If I found out that my wife’s love for me has all these years been determined by some biochip in her brain by a will or wills other than her, by forces or persons other than her, my opinion and experience of HER (as friend, lover, partner, etc.) would drastically change. I would no longer be able to perceive her love for me as HER love for me."

"...What makes me feel right about her loving me is knowing that it’s HER who is loving me. Libertarian choice is just a necessary by-product of this that comes in further down the line."

"... If God determined your daughter’s ‘love’ for you, then in my view you can’t say “My daughter loves me and if God…” since in my view it’s GOD loving you by means of your daughter who is just merely the instrumentation of God’s actions. That’s functionally equivalent to pantheism in my view."

"...To clarify, what I mean by charade in my previous post is God's call of sinners to repentance, His plea for them to turn from sin by the declaration that He doesn't delight in the death of the wicked, His command for them to humble themselves, His "regret" that He had made man before the flood, etc. The calvinist understanding of God could be characterized by a man in his room holding a sock puppet on each hand, talking to them and voicing like a ventriloquist their responses, one puppet being the bad guy and the other the "good" guy. Then, after a long ridiculous show with pretentious loud drama, he rips the bad sock off and throws it in his fireplace, while the "good" puppet cheers him on."

"...God is a God of infinite and unconditional love... And determinism is also not on the menu because ‘love requires freedom’...Libertarian freedom is power to the contrary.

 

[Anto9us]

The Calvinist definition of "free will" which really means "totally depraved will", "will in 100% slavery to sin", "will that must obey its sinful nature", "will that is free in the sense of free to sin & do nothing but sin". A will that can only sin is not free to not sin. It is a puppet of sin which God is responsible for.

There was a FREE WILL OFFERING in the OT. Do you think that THAT free will was defined in the 'Calvinist definition' that CofA posted above, or did FREE WILL mean something else to the OT saints who brought FREE WILL OFFERINGS?

 

[ClementofA]

There was a FREE WILL OFFERING in the OT. Do you think that THAT free will was defined in the 'Calvinist definition' that CofA posted above, or did FREE WILL mean something else to the OT saints who brought FREE WILL OFFERINGS?

In some schools there are compulsory courses one must take & courses that are not compulsory that one is free to choose or reject. The free choice courses do not imply anything about libertarian free will (LFW). They are not necessarily any more of a LFW choice than the compulsory courses that a student must take.

 

[EmSw]

No, as the blood of jesus atoned for just the chosen elect of God, who prove and confirm their election by trusting in Him to save them!

Show us how physical blood provides spiritual atonement. Please, give the details.

 

[YeshuaFan]

"The Father loves the Son and has given all into His hand"

Yes, and those all would be the elect of God...

 

[YeshuaFan]

Free only to sin is nothing but bondage & slavery as puppets! It's is not the real freedom to choose given by God, as in libertarian free will (LFW), which Calvinists deny!

The Calvinist definition of "free will" which really means "totally depraved will", "will in 100% slavery to sin", "will that must obey its sinful nature", "will that is free in the sense of free to sin & do nothing but sin". A will that can only sin is not free to not sin. It is a puppet of sin which God is responsible for. Therefore to send such people to an endless hell for what they are not responsible for is unjust & makes God a sadistic monster.

You misunderstood what we Calvinists mean by that term, as we hold that lost sinners can still do good things and good works , but the truth is that they cannot desire to get saved, not want or even can accept jesus as Messiah left to our own wills!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Show us how physical blood provides spiritual atonement. Please, give the details.

For in the shedding of blood is remission for sins, as God needed to have Jesus die and shed His blood in order to be the sin bearer who took on our sins so that we can be saved by God!

 

[JLB777]

Only those whom the Father chose to give to jesus to save shall be though!

Please read what the scripture actually says, not what you want it to say.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

JLB

 

[ClementofA]

You misunderstood what we Calvinists mean by that term, as we hold that lost sinners can still do good things and good works ,

Irrelevant & false. For in Calvinism fallen man does "not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12)":

"Total Depravity - Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ."

1. It is the unbeliever who is deceitful and wicked (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light and does evil (John 3:19), does not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

What is TULIP in Calvinism? | CARM.org

And in Calvinism even the good works a wicked person does are sin stained: they "are filthy rags before God (Is. 64:6)" What is the relationship between faith and works? | CARM.org

but the truth is that they cannot desire to get saved, not want or even can accept jesus as Messiah left to our own wills!

Any Christian theology (e.g. Calvinism) that rejects libertarian free will [LFW] leads to these conclusions:

1. We are all puppets in God’s puppet show.

2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.

3. God alone is responsible for all sin.

4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.

If unregenerate humans are totally depraved & can only sin & do not have the ability of contrary choice, then they are just puppets controlled by God & or the forces He has created. As such they are not responsible for their actions. God is. For Him to send them to an endless hell for His sins makes Him to be a sadistic monster.

In Calvinism God forces people to be saved by irresistible grace without their libertarian free will (LFW) consent. IOW the saved are forced to be saved like a man forcefully rapes a girl. Likewise the lost are forced to remain lost & burn in hell forever for sins that God is responsible for.

If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a “god”, then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that “god” would be unjust & make that “god” a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists’ actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a “god” would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy “god” except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?


213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[AFrazier]

For in the shedding of blood is remission for sins, as God needed to have Jesus die and shed His blood in order to be the sin bearer who took on our sins so that we can be saved by God!

More correctly ... Jesus became the sin bearer who took on our sins, and Jesus had to die and shed his blood as a result. He came to be God's offering. He is the Lamb of God.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Please read what the scripture actually says, not what you want it to say.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

JLB

The ones that are actually enabled to believe on Him to save them are the elect of God..... God's election and predestination on them grants them the enabling to receive Jesus and to be saved!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Irrelevant & false. For in Calvinism fallen man does "not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12)":

"Total Depravity - Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ."

1. It is the unbeliever who is deceitful and wicked (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light and does evil (John 3:19), does not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

What is TULIP in Calvinism? | CARM.org

And in Calvinism even the good works a wicked person does are sin stained: they "are filthy rags before God (Is. 64:6)" What is the relationship between faith and works? | CARM.org



Any Christian theology (e.g. Calvinism) that rejects libertarian free will [LFW] leads to these conclusions:

1. We are all puppets in God’s puppet show.

2. God is the first cause of all evil & sin.

3. God alone is responsible for all sin.

4. If God sends anyone to an endless hell for sins he alone is responsible for, he is unjust and a monstrous sadist.

If unregenerate humans are totally depraved & can only sin & do not have the ability of contrary choice, then they are just puppets controlled by God & or the forces He has created. As such they are not responsible for their actions. God is. For Him to send them to an endless hell for His sins makes Him to be a sadistic monster.

In Calvinism God forces people to be saved by irresistible grace without their libertarian free will (LFW) consent. IOW the saved are forced to be saved like a man forcefully rapes a girl. Likewise the lost are forced to remain lost & burn in hell forever for sins that God is responsible for.

If humans have no choice but to sin, since they do not have libertarian free will (LFW) or the power to resist or the power of contrary choice, then they are the puppets of sin. They are not responsible for that sin, since they could do nothing but sin. If no created beings have LFW, then their creator would be responsible for all sin, not the created beings. For such a “god”, then, to send any to endless tortures for sins caused by that “god” would be unjust & make that “god” a monstrous sadist, infinitely worse than all sadists’ actions of history combined, including Satan. Such a “god” would be the most unrighteous being there ever was & one of the worst conceivably imaginable. Who would dream up, inspire & propagandize such a fantasy “god” except Satan, the accuser & slanderer of the good & righteous true God, Love Omnipotent?


213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

We hold that lost sinenrs can and do do good works, but that noe of those works are untainted and really done totally for good reasons, and that none actually will seek Jesus to save them apart from the Holy Spirit working in their lives to do such!

 

[YeshuaFan]

More correctly ... Jesus became the sin bearer who took on our sins, and Jesus had to die and shed his blood as a result. He came to be God's offering. He is the Lamb of God.

True, as being a sinless man, he qualified to die as the sin offering to propiate the wrath of the Father towards sinners, and also being God, His death had infinite value to save....

 

[The Gryphon]

Here is how I see things in my own way of thinking. G_d created Angels as pure servants. They do not have freedom of choice if they in any way refuse or rebel they are cast out from the presence of G_d. How could G_d create anything but perfection some ask? I believe G_d does not want machines but willing servants. I believe G_d created man because He wanted fellowship also willingly and freely chosen not forced. I am amazed that so few understand that while Eve was deceived Adam choice to disobey of his own free will. G_d wants the best for us and often makes it possible for us to have many chances to make right choices but He will not force us. That can be clearly seen in the history of the Jewish people. They have been given so much and those that have sought to destroy them have been destroyed instead. Jews have been scatter across the earth and yet G_d is again gathering them into their promised homeland to honor His Word not their actions. G_d is faithful even if men are not. Do you think Satan would have motivated Jesus's murder on the cross if he had any idea he was about to destroy his own kingdom. Finite beings cannot see infinite possibilities. Humans can not shed themselves of their sins until they come to the understanding they are selfish and sinful beings in need of a savior. Sin cannot exist in the presence of G_d so G_d took on flesh so that He could make a way for His creation to again gain fellowship with Him by choosing to do so because He Loved them that much.

I am constantly amazed by the arrogance of humans. One group thinks they get a leg up on another group and they are bound and determined to be superior to them rather than being a servant as Jesus taught. It is simply amazing. The Son of God washed his disciples feet. Were they undeserving? Without question but that was not the point. The Son of God was showing by example how you have to be willing to humble yourself and serve others. He was G_d in the flesh about to take on the Sins of all mankind to the death and yet He was HUBLE. Somehow even so many Christians feel rather than being humble in their position of salvation and service to others including Jews they feel it is there place to judge others an rack retribution up them. That is hardly Christ like and not the example Jesus set. G_d sent the Jewish Messiah to the Jews first and that ALL men including Jews might find salvation. How we Christians must grieve G_d' heart.

 

[JLB777]

The ones that are actually enabled to believe on Him to save them are the elect of God...

Can you show us where in John 3:16, that your idea of God just enabling the elect to save them, is found?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Why would the Lord Jesus Christ, teach us that “whosoever believes” would have everlasting life, if it were only a special group of people that He enabled to believed, were the ones to receive everlasting life?








JLB

 

[YeshuaFan]

Can you show us where in John 3:16, that your idea of God just enabling the elect to save them, is found?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Why would the Lord Jesus Christ, teach us that “whosoever believes” would have everlasting life, if it were only a special group of people that He enabled to believed, were the ones to receive everlasting life?
Same jesus stated that all the Father gave to Him he will save and raise up in resurrection, but did not say All would be saved!







JLB

 

[roman2819]

Free will does not exist....show one NT. verse that says it does exist.
I did not say a verse that says choose, or believe, I said one that says free will.

I don't think the bible need to use the word "free will" to show that there is free will.

When God told Adan and Eve, they could eat from any trees except one, it is implicit that God gave them free will. The fact that they did eat showed free will. Israel chose to worship idols instead of God. The Pharisees and most Jews chose to go against Jesus and crucify Him. Free will is implicit throughout the Bible, right before our eyes.