2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

So, you think "hating your own life' will get into heaven? There's lots of people in the 3rd world countries who hate their life. Does that get them into heaven?

This is an unusual viewpoint you have put here.
A common theme through scripture is the world desires domination of an individual over others at the cost of the suffering of the people they dominate. This cost often through slavery, exploitation, murder, theft, lying, fraud, any and all means of evil, where the reward is wealth, through the loss of someone else. And what drives this behaviour are the passions of the heart.

As Paul describes we are to put to death these things, and think on the things of heaven.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:13-14

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.
Colossians 3:5-7

When the Lord grabs our hearts and starts to work them through, the words here are not just words, but a living reality in our lives. It is hard for those who have not had this mold and make them to think there are other interpretations and meanings, because when you know walking in the Spirit and the dying to these other things, then freedom and victory is truly reached.

It is like saying to a tree, it says here you will have a strong trunk and deep roots, but it is all spiritual and metaphorical, what you have in Jesus, one is just a seed which in heaven will come to life and purity.

Ofcourse to those who do not have this embedded in their hearts and lives, it appears as just metaphorical, because we are called to walk the way. And unless we walk the way, it appears just promises and aspirations which seem impossible for the worldly man to follow. And this is why salvation is being born of the Spirit and walking in the Spirit, though such a testimony to some will appear condemnation, that is why repentance, humbleness and faith are needed to take the first step. Believe what Jesus says, and is pointing to and start walking.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I see no relevance.

Salvation and being religious. Religion is about behaviour, separating good from evil, a process of judgement by a deity, and a story line of favour and punishment to ones followers.

What makes me laugh, is religious people claiming they are not religious.
What they often mean is they are happy and alive, their faith changing every aspect of who they are, not just ceremonies which they do occasionally in the hope this resolves their eternal future.

Even more strange is the refining idea, that a sentence must be accepted one way and not another, though the belief systems are identical this matters as if it is above the core beliefs themselves. In truth people are looking for a battle, not agreement or encouragement, and wish to root out the enemy as they see them and win them over or put them down.

So a desire to be "religious" in one heroic aspect can be pointless when the other aspects of life which are part of that faith or belief system are ignored or rejected. But people do this all the time, not seeing why they are behaving as they do, and how this has become something else than they intended.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again the above verse emphasises the same point. Forgiveness of our sins is conditional on our forgiving others. I have communicated with believers who hate this connection, as if Jesus is not plain as to His feelings and approach. It is in centring our hearts through forgiveness that we begin to know the meaning of purity, holiness and walking in love.

It seems you've been spending far too much time with believers who have a very unbiblical orientation.

Why do you do that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"So, you think "hating your own life' will get into heaven? There's lots of people in the 3rd world countries who hate their life. Does that get them into heaven?"

This is an unusual viewpoint you have put here.

My responses are to your posts, which seem rather "unusual". I got the impression that you think that getting into heaven includes hating your own life. So that's why I commented as I did.

So if you think my responses are unusual, just read back your own comments to which I responded. Then you'll understand.

A common theme through scripture is the world desires domination of an individual over others at the cost of the suffering of the people they dominate.

That's not what I find. I find that the devil desires domination over all individuals.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:13-14

Let's focus on the phrase "you will die" in v.13. Please explain specifically what Paul meant by that phrase.

Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.
Colossians 3:5-7

Can you provide verses that result in putting to death whtaever belongs to our earthly nature?

When the Lord grabs our hearts and starts to work them through, the words here are not just words, but a living reality in our lives.

I am interested in your biblical knowledge of how to "put to death whatever belongs to your earthly nature", specifically.

Yes, I agree. These words are "not just words, but a living reality in our lives". Or should be, since Paul wrote this as a command. So, how do you obey this command?

It is hard for those who have not had this mold and make them to think there are other interpretations and meanings, because when you know walking in the Spirit and the dying to these other things, then freedom and victory is truly reached.

I'm really NOT interested in all of these other people you seem to like to reference. I am interested in how YOU "put to death whatever belongs to your earthly nature" in specific terms. Remember, these are not just words.

How do you make this a reality? It isn't automatic or guaranteed.

 

[LightLoveHope]

It seems you've been spending far too much time with believers who have a very unbiblical orientation.

Why do you do that?

Lol. These believers come to forums like this one.
I am called like all believers to shine as a light in the darkness. When I come witnessing to the work the Lord has done in my life, this is some of the people I have met. I am not spending time in agreement with them, but rather I explore their approach in all aspects and wonder at the way they interact.

You must be living an isolated life if you have not come across them as well. Unfortunately you respond in a similar way, though you may not have the same developed theology which they have. This is why I explore and express these different out workings of the theological framework, partly because it also builds up my understanding and bring blessing to my heart. Amen.

 

[JLB777]

Well then, please pay attention, because I've explained it to you frequently.

Eternal life is given to those who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, and there are NO (that means zero) verses about losing eternal life.

Pretty simple, actually.


Your sentence needs work as you put in a non word and I have no idea what your point is.

What you've failed to do is provide any verse that says that eternal life CAN be lost.

I've proven my position with verses that DO SAY what I believe, but you haven't.

It’s very simple.


Christians who hate their brother do not have eternal life remaining in them.


Since you have done everything you know to distract from answering this simple question, it has become obvious to all that you are promoting a false doctrine.



Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


If a brother hates his brother, does he still have eternal life remaining in him, according to your doctrine?


Yes or no?



JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

I got the impression that you think that getting into heaven includes hating your own life. So that's why I commented as I did.

We are commanded to hate our lives in this world. As with all simple words, this about an attitude to the things the world aspires to.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:13-14

"you will die" - it means what it is saying. Death results from sinful behaviour. It destroys the life we have, in terms of fellowship with the Lord, and relationships we have here on earth. Behind this is also the warning that it destroys our standing in Christ. Paul implies from other writing it may not destroy our salvation, but it may well bring into question whether we have even begun this walk.

For me this has always been the mystery of weeds and wheat together in a fellowship. We are commanded just to walk and witness, not judge other than obvious sin. This is where I leave it, because walking in the Spirit is the way of life and to life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"It seems you've been spending far too much time with believers who have a very unbiblical orientation.

Why do you do that?"

Lol. These believers come to forums like this one.

Well, so have you. Shall I equate you with them?

Let's just focus on what each of US believe and why.

I am called like all believers to shine as a light in the darkness. When I come witnessing to the work the Lord has done in my life, this is some of the people I have met.

Stop it. I don't care about any of the idiots that you keep wanting to talk about.

I am not spending time in agreement with them, but rather I explore their approach in all aspects and wonder at the way they interact.

And none of that is relevant to OUR discussion.

You must be living an isolated life if you have not come across them as well.

Of course I have. And I ignore them. They have NO BEARING on what I believe.

Unfortunately you respond in a similar way, though you may not have the same developed theology which they have.

What is your point here? I AM direct, and some may say blunt. But when defending Scripture, I see no other way to get another's attention.

This is why I explore and express these different out workings of the theological framework, partly because it also builds up my understanding and bring blessing to my heart. Amen.

How are you blessed by the idiot theology of these others that you keep bringing up?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It’s very simple.
Christians who hate their brother do not have eternal life remaining in them.

I'm getting quite tired of your games and frequent flip-flops.

Since you now seem to believe that believers during this life possess eternal life, and if a believer then hates his brother loses eternal life, my question to you is this: WHEN does the believer FIRST receive eternal life?

If you don't answer this, there is absolutely no reason to answer any of your questions.

Since you have done everything you know to distract from answering this simple question, it has become obvious to all that you are promoting a false doctrine.

What a bogus comment. I've answered all your questions, or revealed the bogus ones that cannot be answered because of their false premise.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

If a brother hates his brother, does he still have eternal life remaining in him, according to your doctrine?
Yes or no?

At this point, if you don't answer my question about WHEN a believer FIRST receives eternal life, then there is no reason at all to answer any of your questions.

Comprendo?

 

[LightLoveHope]

How are you blessed by the idiot theology of these others that you keep bringing up?

Hi Free,

No ones theology is "idiot". Some of my brothers and sisters in Christ hold positions that are not worked out, and look inconsistent but I am commanded to not judge or call them idiots, but see them as redeemed sinners still struggling and growing in His grace.

Everytime I speak with people they have their perspective, which to them makes sense. It is this I am desiring to comprehend, with the hope that I can express in their terms the love Christ brings to all.

What blesses me is the process of sharing Gods love in a language that is accessible to others where they are. Christ came to earth to express His love to us in our terms. He walked with sinners, drank and eat with them. That involves empathy, a real bonding and knowledge of where people are.

Jesus sets my example and method. When we talk, like now, you teach me another aspect of Jesus and His example in witnessing and sharing His heart. He went to a well at noon, and met a woman, through whom He touched a whole community. A few key sentences, had massive impact, speaking to a need and a static compromise of social standing, failed marriages, social rejection and economic survival.

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. John 3:8

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"I got the impression that you think that getting into heaven includes hating your own life. So that's why I commented as I did"

We are commanded to hate our lives in this world. As with all simple words, this about an attitude to the things the world aspires to.

This doesn't answer my question to you. Do we have to hate our lives in order to enter heaven. A simple yes or no question.

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:13-14

"you will die" - it means what it is saying. Death results from sinful behaviour.

No, the word "death" is used in a number of ways. Twice in Scripture Abraham was described as being "dead" and the context was referring to his ability to have children. So, sexual death was in view.

We also see the use of "death" to be metaphorical, as in James 2 where one's faith is said to be dead. This is neither physical nor spiritual, but death nonetheless.

Let me ask it this way: if fellowship between husband and wife is destroyed because of the actions of either spouse, how else could one describe what happened to their fellowship?

It destroys the life we have, in terms of fellowship with the Lord, and relationships we have here on earth.

Well, there you go. Fellowship death is the answer. We lose fellowship when we live a sinful life. Which is why the Bible commands believers to live a holy life.

Behind this is also the warning that it destroys our standing in Christ.

This is not possible. You were doing well at "fellowship death". The reason our "standing in Christ" cannot be destroyed is because of what Eph 1;13,14 says:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

I've color coded the words to easier explanation:

Red words show that believers are placed in union with Christ
Blue words show that this occurs WHEN one believes and the means is the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, who seals us in Him
Green words give us the PROMISE or guarantee of our inheritance (living in heaven as God's children)
Purpose words show us the result of being God's possession; redemption.

From these 2 verses, it simply is impossible for our "standing in Christ" to be in any way changed.

For me this has always been the mystery of weeds and wheat together in a fellowship.

There can be no fellowship between weeds and wheat. This is what the Bible says about that:

2 Cor 6:15 - What harmony is there between Christ and Belial ? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

The answer is "nothing".

We are commanded just to walk and witness, not judge other than obvious sin. This is where I leave it, because walking in the Spirit is the way of life and to life.

Could you explain exactly how a believer "walks in the Spirit"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free,

No ones theology is "idiot". Some of my brothers and sisters in Christ hold positions that are not worked out, and look inconsistent but I am commanded to not judge or call them idiots, but see them as redeemed sinners still struggling and growing in His grace.

The Bible commands believers to be discerning and to "rightly divide the Word of God" in 2 Tim 2:15 - Be diligent to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

So I disagree with your assessment.

And any theology that does not line up with Scripture is "idiot" imo.

 

[LightLoveHope]

This doesn't answer my question to you. Do we have to hate our lives in order to enter heaven. A simple yes or no question.

Yes we have to hate the world to enter heaven. To be friends with the world is to be an enemy of God.

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. James 4:4

You asking this question suggests to me you have not learnt this truth.

 

[LightLoveHope]

This is not possible. You were doing well at "fellowship death". The reason our "standing in Christ" cannot be destroyed is because of what Eph 1;13,14 says:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

This is where we look at things differently.
You hold scripture like it defines life, rather than scripture is the doorway to see life and how it is laid out. Words gain their meaning from life and the interactions that define them, either in scripture or in testimonies or in our own life experiences. Fluidity of ideas is key to seeing different perspectives. Over time some will appear more important than others.

Unfortunately often it is not the ideas or propositions in themselves are wrong, rather the emphasis on one rather than the other that creates the problem. Each emphasis creates its own tensions. And we end up choosing the tensions that fit us best. It is where we go wrong, and jumping to judgements lets us down.

The unforgivable sin, is taking a true work of God and calling it a work of the enemy. There is no hope for those who end up this far gone. This should humble us, to know that in all things God is sovereign.

So your stand on security in Christ is where my heart is, but defending corrupt sinful broken and false teachers is a big mistake. A rotten tree that destroys those it touches is not of the Lord. Where the Lord is there is purity and love. When we feel most strongly about something, often it is us who carries the bigger problem.

So the Lord is gracious and patient with His people, but not to the point of defending sinful behaviour. I hope you can see the distinction I am making. It is why for me to come with a testimony of love and walking in His ways, should not end up with believers condemning me as an unbeliever.

That in itself declares they do not understand Jesus or what He stands for.
It is this issue of walking the way that troubles our churches, not a sense of security, because often they have not entered in to start with.

 

[LightLoveHope]

And any theology that does not line up with Scripture is "idiot" imo.

I am called to show respect, to understand people hold positions for often good reasons with a history of experiences and teaching.

I could be the one who is wrong, for I am merely a follower of another. It is this humbleness that keeps me safe, rather than loyalty to one position or another.

It is a risky approach, but over my life, it has led me to some great discoveries and experiences.

My previso is simple. The Lord uses everything.
The Lord took Joseph and let his brothers sell him into slavery and go the Egypt, to be put in prison, interpret dreams and finally to be the most powerful administrator in the land to deliver Egypt and his family from a great famine.

But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
Jude 1:9

And we urge you, brothers, warn those who are idle, encourage the timid, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else.
1 Thess 5:14-15

I have seen many conversations between believers that fail this standard. I have tried in the past to intervene but that just led to more disputes and hurt feelings. So it appears better to just address Jesus's examples, and call people to the way. Those of the way will listen, and the rest we have no influence over.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes we have to hate the world to enter heaven.

Show me a verse that actually says that.

To be friends with the world is to be an enemy of God.

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. James 4:4

Nothing here about not getting into heaven. You keep assuming things that verses do not say.

You asking this question suggests to me you have not learnt this truth.

On the contrary, I understand what the verse means, which has nothing to do about not getting into heaven.

James wrote to believers. You know, those who have been given eternal life. And Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So James 4:4 cannot be about losing salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is where we look at things differently.
You hold scripture like it defines life, rather than scripture is the doorway to see life and how it is laid out.

I don't see any real difference here. And Scripture most assuredly defines life. If you don't believe that, you really don't understand Scripture.

Words gain their meaning from life and the interactions that define them, either in scripture or in testimonies or in our own life experiences.

Not true. Neither your life experiences nor mine, nor any one else's put meaning into words. That's ridiculous. What psycho class did that come from?

That's nothing but rank subjectivity.

Words mean things apart from whatever life experiences occur.

If our life experiences create meaning to words, then words mean nothing. Nonsense.

Fluidity of ideas is key to seeing different perspectives. Over time some will appear more important than others.

More psycho-babble from your psych class.

Scripture is rock solid. With ONE perspective, which is God's perspective.

The unforgivable sin, is taking a true work of God and calling it a work of the enemy.

I suggest you read the Bible. The unforgivable sin was described by Jesus when the Pharisees accredited His miracles to the devil. God does a lot of "true works". It was specifically SEEING the miracles and claiming they came from the devil.

So, it is impossible to commit this sin today. No one today will see Jesus physically perform miracles. That only occurred when Jesus walked on earth about 2,000 years ago.

So your stand on security in Christ is where my heart is, but defending corrupt sinful broken and false teachers is a big mistake.

Stop this nonsense. I've never defended either sin nor false teachers.

So the Lord is gracious and patient with His people, but not to the point of defending sinful behaviour.

Unless you prove your outlandish charge about what I have defended, you owe me a huge apology.

I hope you can see the distinction I am making.

What I've seen is distortion and delusion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And any theology that does not line up with Scripture is "idiot" imo."

I am called to show respect, to understand people hold positions for often good reasons with a history of experiences and teaching.

Any theology that doesn't line up with God's word doesn't deserve "respect", nor are there any "good reasons" for having such a theology.

What is at play is Satan's deception. That is nothing to respect.

I could be the one who is wrong, for I am merely a follower of another. It is this humbleness that keeps me safe, rather than loyalty to one position or another.

No, what keeps one safe is being in Christ.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Nothing here about not getting into heaven. You keep assuming things that verses do not say.

In your view you can be an enemy of God and still be His child.
That is a very odd view of walking in faith and love.

You demonstrate you hold a ticket of salvation as your definition of faith and the Lords gospel, which is the same way the people of Israel viewed God before He judged them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In your view you can be an enemy of God and still be His child.
That is a very odd view of walking in faith and love.

How come you don't realize that loving the world would include "walking in faith and love". Obviously not.

It seems you are unaware of how believers out of fellowship live.

You demonstrate you hold a ticket of salvation as your definition of faith and the Lords gospel, which is the same way the people of Israel viewed God before He judged them.

Always trying to make comparisons with others. Please stop that.