2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Your attempt to “explain away” the truth is well noted by all.
Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15
Were you ever able to find a scripture that says a brother can hate his brother and still have eternal life remaining in him?
If you need more time to search the scriptures, I understand.
I’ll just wait.
JLB

It's time to address the OP. 2 Thess 2:12, along with John 3:18 shows that the only people who will be condemned are those who NEVER BELIEVED.

What does that tell you? That those who HAVE BELIEVED shall never perish.

Just what Jesus said in John 10:28.

OSAS is all over the Bible. But you don't want to see it.

 

[JLB777]

It's time to address the OP. 2 Thess 2:12,

Ok.


Please show me from 2 Thessalonians 2:12 where it teaches eternal security?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok.


Please show me from 2 Thessalonians 2:12 where it teaches eternal security?
JLB

Didn't you read the OP? That's how these forums work. One responds to the point of the OP.

But, since you didn't read it, the point of 2 Thess 2:12 is that condemnation is for those who NEVER BELIEVED.

"and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

Jesus said the same thing in John 3:18 - "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

So, your claim that a believer who ceases to believe reverts back to an unbeliever is refuted by these 2 verses.

iow, once a person believes, they will not be condemned.

Jesus made the same point in John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Therefore, on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

 

[JLB777]

Didn't you read the OP? That's how these forums work. One responds to the point of the OP.

But, since you didn't read it, the point of 2 Thess 2:12 is that condemnation is for those who NEVER BELIEVED.

"and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

Jesus said the same thing in John 3:18 - "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

So, your claim that a believer who ceases to believe reverts back to an unbeliever is refuted by these 2 verses.

iow, once a person believes, they will not be condemned.

Jesus made the same point in John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Therefore, on the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish.

Here is the scripture you posted from the OP.


that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:12


People who do not believe the truth, are those who live in the pleasures of sin and unrighteousness, disobeying Christ and His commandments.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



Your scripture does not validate eternal security, but rather it disproves it.



JLB

 

[LightLoveHope]

God's Truth remains God's Truth
regardless of what anyone thinks,
or says, or writes, or does!

BACs are responsible for being led
by the Holy Spirit as He reveals the
meaning of what the word of God
is saying!

For example: the supposed conflict
between the so-called OSAS verses
and those verses in which opposition.

These are reconciled simply by seeing:
The NT English word "believe" from
the Greek "pisteou" is so understated!
There is NO English word which can be
used to relay the full meaning of the
secular Greek word "pisteou".
(Some Greek words can have up to 40
different meanings, depending on context!)

Taking into account the whole of the NT,
the Greek "pisteou" must mean:
believe, faith, trust, and obedience.

I.E. one who truly believes in Jesus and
His Gospel (Good News), will "believe"
in the above manner.

This is a good point. We have a protestant tradition which has often separated the concept of believing something from the action that results.

So we can say "I believe you" which is just an intellectual assent to the truth of a statement. In another language it could mean the action that results from the belief as well, where we have separated the two.

If someone declared your house is burning down, to agree with this, would also mean you took action, it would be absurd not to.

The fact this theological divide is created because the idea of action is actually wrong, is odd, because why communicate the truth, if it did not result in action. If the action is irrelevant, then communicating it is just flattery or reassurance. In the context of sin and judgement, as in the case of Jonah, the whole point was repentance and change of behaviour, which Jonah specifically did not want Nineveh to do, so they would be judged. And when you meet people enslaved by sin, to leave them enslaved is no favour or help to anyone. It is here I wonder what these believers think Jesus intended or desired, because it seems to be to leave the world as it is.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I said: ↑
The doctrine of eternal security does not do that. However, the opposite is blasphemy; by the notion that the salvation that God provides BY GRACE can be lost by works.

Stick to the Bible. It is lost by neglect for one. Jesus said it’s lost because of the pleasures of sin. That’s not a work. It’s lost by failing to endure to the end. That’s not a work. It’s lost because of the tribulation in this life. That’s not a work either.

"certainly does"...what? Leads to sin? Please explain how. And refute my claim that the opposite is blasphemy against God's grace.

Please provide where God describes something that is blasphemy against His grace. What is that?

"Jesus was clear: those He gives eternal life (believers, when they believe) shall never perish."

”He (and only he) who endures to the end (and not before) shall be saved.” Jesus being clear on when salvation is given.... the end.

Sure. John 5:24 and 6:47 tell us that whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life, and John 10:28 says those Jesus gives eternal life shall never perish.

Given at the end to those who had endured. Enduring is not a work, btw.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Since you have plainly rejected the Scriptures, what do you think "makes you clean"?

I have rejected the scriptures?
Are we not called to live pure, holy, blameless lives?
Are we not encouraged to hunger and thirst after righteousness?
Are we not told Jesus's blood cleanses us if we confess our sins and trust in His forgiveness through the cross, repenting and desiring to walk in love.
We need to believe that Jesus has brought forgiveness, by accepting His death as the atoning sacrifice on the altar in the Holy of Holies.

But part of this is desiring to walk in His ways, not perfectly at first, but knowing that the path is there and it is our calling.

The difference between sinning, doing another harm, and loving, serving and desiring ministry is not legalism or law watching. It is about working through our motivations, seeing Jesus's example and choosing to follow. So to love ones enemies, to love the leper, to reach out those if difficult places and give support.

But this cannot happen while emotions, motivations and hurts are locked away and refused to be given up. It is like saying it is nice to be good, but Jesus does that, I just acknowledge Him, that is enough. That is the same as a demon saying Jesus has meaning for them, while they are commited to damage and causing trouble.

To be born again is to have the law of God written on ones heart, to obey is a delight, is something one wants to achieve. But we need a mirror to see where we really are, and not paint rosy pictures of ourselves or imagine Jesus just ignores our standing and just puts His sacrifice over us, while we have no desire to conform to the way of the Spirit.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Lol please ask some of the Orthodox brothers and sisters what the Orthodox Church says on this matter. I’m sure you already know their position. I’m also sure you are aware that the Orthodox Church is an expert at Greek scripture translation. They wrote it.

There was no orthodox Greek church in the first century and the language used is not spoken today.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is the scripture you posted from the OP.

that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:12

People who do not believe the truth, are those who live in the pleasures of sin and unrighteousness, disobeying Christ and His commandments.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
Your scripture does not validate eternal security, but rather it disproves it.
JLB

As per your usual response, you failed to even address the points I made.

Of course those who do not believe the truth do those things you listed.

Here is the verse: "and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

I don't know or care what translation you quoted, but the point is about the fact that the people who are condemned HAVE NOT BELIEVED the truth.

Unless you can prove the Greek doesn't say that. Good luck proving that one.

And you failed, once again, to engage the other 2 verses, which also indicate the very same thing; only those who have NEVER BELIEVED will be condemned.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Stick to the Bible.

I do.

It is lost by neglect for one.

And what verse?

Jesus said it’s lost because of the pleasures of sin.

Again, what verse?

That’s not a work. It’s lost by failing to endure to the end.

This is a serious misunderstanding of the verse. The context is the Tribulation, and includes physical death. The verse about "enduring to the end shall be saved" has NOTHING to do with soul salvation and is about living through the Tribulation by enduring in the faith.

That’s not a work. It’s lost because of the tribulation in this life. That’s not a work either.

Nope. The tribulation in that verse is the Great Tribulation, a 7 year period.

Please provide where God describes something that is blasphemy against His grace. What is that?

Why would I do such a silly thing? And what are you talking about anyway?

”He (and only he) who endures to the end (and not before) shall be saved.” Jesus being clear on when salvation is given.... the end.

Do you not believe these verses?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has (current possession) eternal life and will not be judged (guaranteed future result) but has crossed over (past action completed) from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has (current possession) eternal life.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given (past action resulting in present possession) us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have (current possession) eternal life.

You may want to rethink your position on when one is saved.

Further, Jesus was real clear about the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

I've color coded the verse in order to more easily follow my points.

The red words represent the CAUSE of possessing (having) eternal life. The CAUSE is Jesus Christ Himself.

The blue words represent the EFFECT of possessing (having) eternal life. Shall never perish.

I would point out that between the red words (CAUSE) and blue words (EFFECT) is nothing else. No conditions to meet.

So, Jesus CAUSES the believer to HAVE eternal life. And the EFFECT of HAVING eternal life is to NEVER PERISH.

Given at the end to those who had endured. Enduring is not a work, btw.

Enduring IS a work, obviously. And that verse isn't about getting saved at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have rejected the scriptures?

If you believe that salvation can be lost, yes.

Are we not called to live pure, holy, blameless lives?

Yes, but not for salvation.

Are we not encouraged to hunger and thirst after righteousness?

Of course we are.

Are we not told Jesus's blood cleanses us if we confess our sins and trust in His forgiveness through the cross, repenting and desiring to walk in love.

If you are referring to 1 John 1:9, the subject of ch 1 is fellowship with the Lord. And because of the problem of sin, the believer needs cleansing on a recurring basis. So that confession is to maintain or regain fellowship with the Lord.

We need to believe that Jesus has brought forgiveness, by accepting His death as the atoning sacrifice on the altar in the Holy of Holies.

Yes, this is saving faith.

But part of this is desiring to walk in His ways, not perfectly at first, but knowing that the path is there and it is our calling.

No, none of this is involved in saving faith.

To be born again is to have the law of God written on ones heart, to obey is a delight, is something one wants to achieve.

No, to be "born again" is to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5), which is the result of faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 1:13,14). And it is God who "writes on one's heart", not something we do.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As per your usual response, you failed to even address the points I made.

Of course those who do not believe the truth do those things you listed.

Here is the verse: "and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

I don't know or care what translation you quoted, but the point is about the fact that the people who are condemned HAVE NOT BELIEVED the truth.

Unless you can prove the Greek doesn't say that. Good luck proving that one.

And you failed, once again, to engage the other 2 verses, which also indicate the very same thing; only those who have NEVER BELIEVED will be condemned.

How is whether a person believed the truth measured by God Almighty? Because they said so? Because they once in their lives said so?

Or because they did not delight in wickedness? Hummmm. When is this measured? What if they once said so and were following Jesus faithfully but the pleasures of sin or the troubles in this life choked out their faith and they returned to unrighteousness?

This happens as jesus said it does and many can name names of those who fit this description.

So they enjoyed the pleasures of sin after a life to the end of their lives. Hmmm This verse says they will be condemned because they delighted in wrong doing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I do.

No you don’t. Look
below.

This is a serious misunderstanding of the verse. The context is the Tribulation, and includes physical death. The verse about "enduring to the end shall be saved" has NOTHING to do with soul salvation and is about living through the Tribulation by enduring in the faith.

I’ve heard this before and it’s the silliest argument I’ve ever heard. It goes like this, if a person isn’t killed during the tribulation, that is they endure the Tribulation rather than die, they won’t die. Unbelievers who don’t die during the Tribulation won’t have died either of course. In the end it warns and promises nothing at all. Endure to the end by not dying and you’ll be saved from dying. If that isn’t the silliest twisting of scripture I ever heard and men actually believe it instead realizing Jesus is giving a real warning.

You also have to ignore that the Christians who flee don’t experience the tribulation at all.

Nope. The tribulation in that verse is the Great Tribulation, a 7 year period.

Yeah, if you endure to the end and don’t die you will be saved from dying.

Why would I do such a silly thing? And what are you talking about anyway?

What is blasphemy against his grace? Your phrase.

Do you not believe these verses?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has (current possession) eternal life and will not be judged (guaranteed future result) but has crossed over (past action completed) from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has (current possession) eternal life.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given (past action resulting in present possession) us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have (current possession) eternal life.

Do you believe the words of Jesus where he talked about HOW people fall away? The pleasures of sin, the troubles of persecution or the troubles in this life. What about who come to Jesus calling on the name of the Lord as Lord, clearly believers acknowledging him as Lord, who he rejected as workers of inquity.

You may want to rethink your position on when one is saved.

Ah, no i know Jesus says we ALL need to endure to the end. The fruit is rejecting that one is embracing the most absurd excuse i ever heard.

Further, Jesus was real clear about the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

But they can all jump out of his hand like the 70.

I've color coded the verse in order to more easily follow my points.

The red words represent the CAUSE of possessing (having) eternal life. The CAUSE is Jesus Christ Himself.

The blue words represent the EFFECT of possessing (having) eternal life. Shall never perish.

I would point out that between the red words (CAUSE) and blue words (EFFECT) is nothing else. No conditions to meet.

No love. No obedience. Just being convinced one is going to heaven no matter what sin one enjoys. This doctrine has bad fruit.

But let me ask you, do you need obey the command to love God?

So, Jesus CAUSES the believer to HAVE eternal life. And the EFFECT of HAVING eternal life is to NEVER PERISH.


Enduring IS a work, obviously. And that verse isn't about getting saved at all.

So you are going to Heaven no matter how you behave to others, right?

 

[FreeGrace2]

How is whether a person believed the truth measured by God Almighty?

It is God who created the plan of salvation. And He has given us the measure by which a person is saved. It's called "saving faith".

So, let's define it according to Scripture, which is the only way.
John 20:31 - But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

What is the result of "having life", which is eternal life?

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, saving faith is a faith with 2 aspects.

The first aspect is OBJECT. All faith must have an object; something or someone to believe IN. The OBJECT in saving faith is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah. Per John 20:31.

The second aspect is GOAL OR PURPOSE of that faith. iow, for what reason are we putting our faith (believing in) that Person. The answer is to be saved/delivered/resued from the lake of fire based on the promise of Jesus in John 10:28.

How do we know that salvation refers to hell, or the lake of fire?

Rev 20:15 - Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

What is clear here is that all who have been given eternal life (Jn 10:28) have been written in the book of life. So, on THAT basis, they will NEVER perish, or be thrown into the lake of fire (hell).

So, within these 3 verses: John 20:31, 10:28, Rev 20:15, we have the definition of what "saving faith" is.

Those who believe these 3 verses HAVE saving faith, and HAVE eternal life, and shall NEVER PERISH.

[QUOTRE] Because they said so?[/QUOTE]
If they ever had saving faith, the Bible says so.

Because they once in their lives said so?

If they ever had saving faith, the Bible says so.

Or because they did not delight in wickedness?

This has zero bearing on whether one has been saved or not.

Hummmm. When is this measured?

For the believer, it is measured/evaluated at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Bema) per 2 Cor 5:10, and is the basis for eternal reward (Rev 22:12).

For the unbeliever, it is measured/evaluated at the Great White Throne Judgment per Rev 20:11-15 and is the basis for how "bearable" the lake of fire will be for them.

What if they once said so and were following Jesus faithfully but the pleasures of sin or the troubles in this life choked out their faith and they returned to unrighteousness?

Again, this isn't about what "they once said", but what "they once BELIEVED".

And the Bible is clear about who WILL BE CONDEMNED; those who NEVER BELIEVED. 2 Thess 2:12 and John 3:18

So they enjoyed the pleasures of sin after a life to the end of their lives. Hmmm This verse says they will be condemned because they delighted in wrong doing.

No it doesn't. But one must reject the verses I've shared to continue to think this way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Stick to the Bible"

No you don’t.

Yes I do. And I was asking you to.

Look below. I’ve heard this before and it’s the silliest argument I’ve ever heard. It goes like this, if a person isn’t killed during the tribulation, that is they endure the Tribulation rather than die, they won’t die. Unbelievers who don’t die during the Tribulation won’t have died either of course. In the end it warns and promises nothing at all. Endure to the end by not dying and you’ll be saved from dying. If that isn’t the silliest twisting of scripture I ever heard and men actually believe it instead realizing Jesus is giving a real warning.

Let's examine the context to determine what one will be saved from.

Matt 24:13 - but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

This verse wasn't written in a vacuum. Here is the context:
The disciples ask Jesus:
v.3 - As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Obviously the Tribulation, which ends this age.
v.6 - You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
v.10 - At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
v.12 - Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
v.13 - but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

What is clear here is the words "the end" refers to the end of the Great Tribulation.

Now consider these verses:
v.21 - For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
v.22 - “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

So, the whole context refers to the 7 year period known as the Tribulation. And v.22 makes clear that if those days had continued beyond 7 years, not even the elect would have survived (been saved from the Tribulation).

We find the same statement in Mark 13:13, and guess what?! In that same context, we find the Tribulation. I'll leave that study up to you.

You also have to ignore that the Christians who flee don’t experience the tribulation at all.

Are you kidding? The Tribulation will affect the whole earth. I guess you haven't yet read Revelation.

Yeah, if you endure to the end and don’t die you will be saved from dying.

A little more dramatic than that. being spared the tremendous suffering that leads to physical death during the Tribulation. But I see that you'd rather trivialize the Tribulation, to suit your own opinions.

What is blasphemy against his grace? Your phrase.

Rejection of His grace, that's what.

Do you believe the words of Jesus where he talked about HOW people fall away? The pleasures of sin, the troubles of persecution or the troubles in this life.

I sure do. Luke 8:13

What about who come to Jesus calling on the name of the Lord as Lord, clearly believers acknowledging him as Lord, who he rejected as workers of inquity.

I see context isn't your "thing". So, let's get some.

Matt 7-
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

OK, what is the "will of My Father" from v.21? Believers receiving eternal life.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

OK, so what that these people, who are standing before the King of Kings and Lord of lords, who is sitting on a Great White Throne (Rev 20), call Him Lord. By now, every knee IS bowing, and probably knocking together uncontrollably. So calling Him Lord has NO connotation of how they EVER thought of Him during their lives.

And v.23 clarifies all doubt. Becuase Jesus tells them, "I NEVER KNEW you", He is saying that they NEVER BELIEVED.

And that is clear anyway from the basis upon which they APPEALED to Him for entering the kingdom: their OWN works, even those done "in His name".

If any of this crowd had EVER believed in Him as Savior, He could NOT have said, "I NEVER KNEW you". That's just not reasonable or possible.

Because He also said that whoever believes HAS (current possession) eternal life (John 5;24 and 6:47).

Then Jesus said, "I give them (believers) eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28.

So, IF any in that crowd in Matt 7 had ever believed, Jesus wouldn't have said "I never knew you" and then rejected them (v.23).

Ah, no i know Jesus says we ALL need to endure to the end.

No He didn't. That verse is in the context of the Tribulation, as I have just shown.

The fruit is rejecting that one is embracing the most absurd excuse i ever heard.

This is an absurd sentence. What "fruit"? And rejecting "what"?

But they can all jump out of his hand like the 70.

What 70. Do you actually know any Scripture, or are you just winging it with bits and pieces of verses that you've recalled over the years?

If you actually know verses, please at least cite them so others can understand where your comments are coming from.

I'm unaware of any "70" jumping in any context, much less "His hand", what ever that refers to.

No love. No obedience. Just being convinced one is going to heaven no matter what sin one enjoys. This doctrine has bad fruit.

Your doctrine is the unbiblical one. Paul made clear in Rom 6 and 7 that sin is a choice. And he was writing to believers. We all make choices. But salvation is based on faith in Christ (saving faith). And from that MOMENT, the person shall never perish.

To force conditions into John 10:28, where NONE exist, is blasphemous and rejects the straightforward words of Jesus. You are not smarter than Jesus. You do not know more than He does.

But let me ask you, do you need obey the command to love God?

Sure I need to. But not for salvation, which probably shocks you. The command to love is for believers, because unbelievers are incapable of loving God. They don't have the capacity.

So you are going to Heaven no matter how you behave to others, right?

Do you realize that this sentence just SMACKS of works salvation, as if one's behavior determines whether they go to heaven or hell?????

Look, everyone is a sinner. Rom 3:9, 23. But only saved sinners will go to heaven.

How many sins did Jesus die for on the cross? Your answer will explain a lot.

 

[JLB777]

As per your usual response, you failed to even address the points I made.

Of course those who do not believe the truth do those things you listed.

Here is the verse: "and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

I don't know or care what translation you quoted, but the point is about the fact that the people who are condemned HAVE NOT BELIEVED the truth.

Unless you can prove the Greek doesn't say that. Good luck proving that one.

And you failed, once again, to engage the other 2 verses, which also indicate the very same thing; only those who have NEVER BELIEVED will be condemned.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


Does eternal security teach that we don’t have to keep His commandments but are still eternally secure?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Does eternal security teach that we don’t have to keep His commandments but are still eternally secure?
JLB

It seems you're either just not up to discussing my points, or not capable of doing so.

Either way, all you do is play dodge ball.

Yes, it does mean that. One is eternally secure based on what Jesus DID (save those who believe and give them eternal life) AND on what He DOES (keep them from ever perishing).

But you don't believe what the Bible says.

However, don't make another mistake and assume that eternal security means that one's behavior doesn't have negative consequences.

They assuredly do. God's discipline is painful (Heb 12:11). Can you imagine what Satan is capable of doing for one whose behavior results in being turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh?

1 Cor 5:5 - hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Now, go ahead and tell me this ain't no big thing. Nothing more than a hand slap.

But, please also notice that in spite of the horrible nature of that man's behavior, he would still be saved. But I shudder to think about what Satan is capable of doing when allowed by God towards rebellion children of God.

I'm sure it's far more than just unpleasant.

 

[JLB777]

It seems you're either just not up to discussing my points, or not capable of doing so.

Either way, all you do is play dodge ball.

Yes, it does mean that. One is eternally secure based on what Jesus DID (save those who believe and give them eternal life) AND on what He DOES (keep them from ever perishing).

But you don't believe what the Bible says.

However, don't make another mistake and assume that eternal security means that one's behavior doesn't have negative consequences.

They assuredly do. God's discipline is painful (Heb 12:11). Can you imagine what Satan is capable of doing for one whose behavior results in being turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh?

1 Cor 5:5 - hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Now, go ahead and tell me this ain't no big thing. Nothing more than a hand slap.

But, please also notice that in spite of the horrible nature of that man's behavior, he would still be saved. But I shudder to think about what Satan is capable of doing when allowed by God towards rebellion children of God.

I'm sure it's far more than just unpleasant.

I have addressed your OP scripture which totally disproves eternal security.


I now ask you a simple question about your eternal security doctrine.

Can you answer it?


Does eternal security teach that we don’t have to keep His commandments but are still eternally secure?



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have addressed your OP scripture which totally disproves eternal security.

You have not.

I now ask you a simple question about your eternal security doctrine.

It's not mine. It's the Bible's.

Can you answer it?

Some of your questions are irrational, and not based on facts. So we'll see.

Does eternal security teach that we don’t have to keep His commandments but are still eternally secure?

Eternal security doesn't teach anything. So your question is irrational.

Eternal security MEANS that one's behavior does not affect one's salvation.

iow, our security is based on what Jesus does for us. He gives us eternal life.

And on THAT BASIS ALONE, the recipient shall never perish.

If you don't believe that, you do not have truth in you.

If you claim that salvation can be lost, then you ARE a liar.

If there were conditions for possessors of eternal security to meet in order to not perish, Jesus would have listed them in John 10:28 between the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

But He didn't.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Where does this verse say anything about salvation, losing salvation, or how to keep salvation?

There are believers who don't keep His commandments, ARE liars, and have no truth in them. But since they have believed, and possess eternal life, they shall never perish.

And you still haven't provided ANY verses that actually state that salvation or eternal life can be lost. So why believe such an idea when the Bible says nothing about that?

 

[JLB777]

It seems you're either just not up to discussing my points, or not capable of doing so.

Either way, all you do is play dodge ball.

Yes, it does mean that. One is eternally secure based on what Jesus DID (save those who believe and give them eternal life) AND on what He DOES (keep them from ever perishing).

But you don't believe what the Bible says.

However, don't make another mistake and assume that eternal security means that one's behavior doesn't have negative consequences.

They assuredly do. God's discipline is painful (Heb 12:11). Can you imagine what Satan is capable of doing for one whose behavior results in being turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh?

1 Cor 5:5 - hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Now, go ahead and tell me this ain't no big thing. Nothing more than a hand slap.

But, please also notice that in spite of the horrible nature of that man's behavior, he would still be saved. But I shudder to think about what Satan is capable of doing when allowed by God towards rebellion children of God.

I'm sure it's far more than just unpleasant.

I’m still waiting for you to explain how a brother can hates his brother and still have eternal life.

You have made every excuses sevin the world, but have posted any scripture that says a brother who hates still has eternal life remaining in him.


JLB