2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

It's based on possessing eternal life, which isn't given for "passing" any exam.

This phrase means nothing. It is like saying a driving license is obtained by holding it in your hand, there is no exam, or examination and test. But clearly it is, there are conditions and knowledge, behaviour, skills learnt, and standard reached.

But you want short circuited language to avoid the actual realities of passing from death to life without defining the how, because that would mean denying what you believe.

 

[JLB777]

Don't you know that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish?

It takes a lot of gall to disagree with Jesus and deny what He said.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus died for them. What do you mean by this? How does an individual claim He died for them as opposed to the guy next to him?

This is what I said:
"It's based on possessing eternal life, which isn't given for "passing" any exam.

It's given to those who have entrusted their souls to Jesus Christ because He died for them and saves those who believe in Him for it."

You equated entering heaven with passing an exam. Which isn't true in the least.

If a person doesn't believe that Jesus Christ died for them personally, they don't have saving faith. One MUST believe that Christ died for them.

btw, He also died fort "the guy next to him" as well. But that wasn't my point.

Did not Jesus die for everyone and got rid of sin past present and future?

Yes. That was my point. But a person must believe it is personal to them.

So He died for everyone, and in your view sin is no longer an issue for judgement.

Do you know why? Because I KNOW the Scripture and what it says.

Read Rev 20:11-15 and then get back to me and answer the question of WHY people will be cast into the lake of fire. I know what you think is the reason, but first read the 5 verses and then answer the question.

Except this then means it is not an individual act for us or me as a sinner, it was a general action irrespective of my faith or belief in Him.

I don't know what this sentence means, or the point. Could you rephrase, please?

But in this situation, how is our faith different from anyone else, and what is the belief in?

It seems your question is about what saving faith is. OK. Good question.

Faith requires 2 aspects in order to be saving.
1. object of faith. This is what or who is the object of faith. In the case of saving faith, the object of saving faith is Jesus Christ, the Son of God (Deity), who died personally for your sins, and gives eternal life to those who trust in Him for it.

2. goal or purpose of faith. This is the "why" of faith in Christ. Or why we need to believe in Him. We need to in order to be delivered or rescued from the lake of fire, which is where every single human being will end up unless they have saving faith in Jesus Christ.

Surely if sin is removed, then nothing else is left.

Not true. No human being possesses eternal life unless it has been given to them.

It is received by faith in Christ. He gives it.

People then invent this idea they believe in Jesus above the cleansing from sin, which is not actually scriptural.

Another sentence that I cannot understand. What does "above the cleansing from sin" mean or refer to? What IS Scriptural is that Jesus Christ died for everyone's sins. But do you understand what that means?

Hint: it doesn't mean that everyone He died for is saved.

It is the forgiveness of sins, the sprinkling of His blood that cleanses our consciences from guilt and delivers pure and holy, except this would appear to apply to everyone on the planet, because guilt is about sin and not redemption.

Let me share some knowledge with you.

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

What this means is that His dying for our sins isn't forgiveness of them. What it did was remove the barrier that sin creates between man and God. The removal of this barrier allows God's grace to be extended to mankind.

So it get very confusing when one invents these extreme ideas outside the theology provided in scripture.

How would you know the theology provided in Scripture when your whole focus has been on emotions rather than knowledge?

And that's what I'm trying to share with you; knowledge of God's word.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As I suggested you are an exam based beleiver, where knowledge is your foundation.

Absolutely.

My foundation is being born again as a whole loving, cleansed beleiver, in both mind body and spirit.

So, how do you know any of this? How were you born again? How were you cleansed? And how are being cleansed on a day to day basis?

My point to you is without your heart being transformed you miss the power of the cross.

See? It seems you do not even know anything about being "born again". Another word is RE-generated. My heart was transformed WHEN I believed. Why don't you believe that? Do you understand what being "born AGAIN" or "RE-generated" means? and how one is?

I do not say this because I am arguing a point, I am stating the reality of what we are in Christ.

OK, please explain HOW you came to be "in Christ". From Scripture, naturally.

Do you have love in your heart, the desire that reaches out to another for them to find life, love and freedom in Jesus.

The purpose of evangelism is to lead people to Jesus Christ FOR SALVATION. Weren't you aware of that?

It would appear to me, not only this is not language you would use, you do not know what I am talking about.

I am giving you the language that I use, which you seem not to understand.

So I have spent my life learning what I am and what love really is. So you are my challenge and the reminder of why I started looking and desiring to translate life within to life on the outside.

Th ONLY WAY to "translate life within to life on the outside" is through KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORD, which doesn't seem to be the way you think or operate.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did you feel Jesus's pain, as they drove the nails home?

No. I wasn't there. But I fully understand WHY He died for me. And am eternally grateful to Him for that.

Do you feel your incapacity to get close to this level of chosen sacrifice?

What are you talking about? I have no idea.

Do you know I am one of those shouting crucify to get rid of this do gooder, who just wanted to show me up?

Again, no idea what you are trying to say.

Did you hear the words, I forgive you? I did and it changed my life.

That's good. I suppose everyone who understands what Jesus did for them, and believes it, knows they were forgiven of their sins. Acts 10:43. And it SHOULD change their lives.

But sadly, Jesus taught us that there are those who "believe for a while, and in time of temptation/testing, fell away". Luke 8:13

I remember wondering why people were not broken before the King, knowing their debt and the wonder of service to such a loving Lord as Him. I cannot say what others have experienced because it does not matter, I just want to encourage them more to see who Jesus truly is, His words, His ministry, His life, His vision and His desire to purchase a people from this world.

This is the expected response. But Jesus was grounded in reality. Luke 8:13

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"It's based on possessing eternal life, which isn't given for "passing" any exam."

This phrase means nothing.

It's the truth. Which, apparently, you do not KNOW.

It is like saying a driving license is obtained by holding it in your hand, there is no exam, or examination and test. But clearly it is, there are conditions and knowledge, behaviour, skills learnt, and standard reached.

This is actually nonsense. No comparison. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, and 13 all say that eternal life is possessed on the basis of faith in Christ. No exam given.

But you want short circuited language to avoid the actual realities of passing from death to life without defining the how, because that would mean denying what you believe.

You want to KNOW how to "pass from death to life", then read John 5:24. You'll learn something.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
JLB

Yep. I see this a lot on these forums.

I still wonder why you believe that salvation can be lost when Jesus didn't give you that freedom. He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

You've failed to show that Jesus didn't teach eternal security in that verse. And you never will. Because He DID teach OSAS.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I said:
"It's based on possessing eternal life, which isn't given for "passing" any exam."

It's the truth. Which, apparently, you do not KNOW.

This is actually nonsense. No comparison. John 5:24, 6:47, 1 John 5:11, and 13 all say that eternal life is possessed on the basis of faith in Christ. No exam given.

You want to KNOW how to "pass from death to life", then read John 5:24. You'll learn something.

Hi Free,

If there is no qualification criteria for getting eternal life, then everyone is given it. In the crudest sense, your name must be written in the Lambs book of Life.
You must not be wicked but be washed and sanctified.
And how does this happen? Because you repent and walk in the way of righteousness, or else you are still wicked and unforgiven.

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15

So you must be written into the book.

Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life
Rev 21:27

So excluded are those who do what is shameful or deceitful.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10> nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11> And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1 cor 6:9-11

Sounds very much like a qualification exam to me.
You must be worthy.

If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke 9:23

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. Matt 16:25

Strangely the concept of loses ones life in Christ is a qualification of devotion and commitment as opposed to trying to keep ones life.

So the above is very concrete, if you do not pass the exam or test you have nothing.

Oddly you believe is you have faith in Jesus you will be saved. That is a test or exam or qualification to receive a reward. You appear to dislike the word reward or a bargain, which leads me to suggest you are like the universalists, close to declaring all are actually saved.

If not it is hard to say the only reason people should be tortured in hell is because they say a few words.

 

[LightLoveHope]

An exam without an exam.
No words spoken needed. No doctrine read and understood. No change in ones heart. No repentance of sins or faith placed in the cross.
It is all a free gift given to everyone.

The free gift is eternal life. And it is given to all, because if one is given it without any criteria or qualification, then all are given it, or no one is given it, or it is just a random choosing of individuals, some to fry some to heaven.

And the cause of this? No qualification or exam for entry.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Intellectual assent or heart change

The intellect is a series of thought processes which lead to a conclusion. It is just a model and does not relate to behaviour or wisdom or choice. So a man with no intellect but does the right thing is better than a man who understands all yet does everything wrong. Understanding and knowledge only have value if put into effect.

So the measure of wisdom is action. Action can be words spoken, gifts given, support provided, forgiveness sought.

But without the emotional background the actions will never happen. You can know you should not hate x, but you still do so will not behave as you ought. So intellectual understanding only provides a framework, it is ones heart, emotions, motivations that provide the power for action.

So without the heart change one is bound to sin and destructive behaviours which govern the world and lead people to death and hell.
We do not enter heaven because of our hearts, our emotional motivations and actions. These things are who we are. But a previso is our actions that result from our hearts balancing out distorted emotions and motivations to bring love and glory to God. It is this ability to change our core processes to bring out righteousness which is our walk of redemption and sanctification, that needs patience, endurance and perseverance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free,

If there is no qualification criteria for getting eternal life, then everyone is given it.

That was my point. But there is no "exam" to take.

In the crudest sense, your name must be written in the Lambs book of Life.

There's nothing "crude" about that.

You frequently use very odd descriptive language.

You must not be wicked but be washed and sanctified.

And rather vague as well. No. We MUST POSSESS eternal life. Period.

And how does this happen? Because you repent and walk in the way of righteousness, or else you are still wicked and unforgiven.

Well, this indicates that you haven't yet placed full trust in the work of Jesus Christ on your behalf, but rather are trusting in your "walk in the way of righteousness". That isn't salvation, friend.

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15

So you must be written into the book.

OK, so how does one "get written into the book"?

Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life
Rev 21:27

So excluded are those who do what is shameful or deceitful.

Are you kidding? There is nothing that you do (works, deeds) that will get your name into the book of life.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10> nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11> And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1 cor 6:9-11

I recommend that you study and compare the 2 other parallel passages to this one:
Gal 5:19-21
Eph 5:1-5

What you will find is that 1 Cor 6 and Gal 5 both use the phrase "will not inherit the kingdom", but Eph 5:5 uses the phrase "will have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

But the rest of each passage describes the same kind of behavior, so they are all parallel.

Therefore, the 2 phrases are equated. They mean the same.

So, to "not inherit the kingdom" means "will have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

Here's what none of the passages mean: "will not enter the kingdom".

The passages are about having inheritance IN the kingdom.

If Paul (who wrote all 3 passages) meant "not enter the kingdom", why did he write "have no inheritance IN the kingdom" in Eph 5:5?

The point is that those believers who behave the way he described will have no inheritance IN the kingdom, but will enter the kingdom.

Sounds very much like a qualification exam to me.
You must be worthy.

What you here describe is nothing other than a works based salvation. Very unbiblical.

Eph 2-
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Apparently you didn't KNOW about these 2 verses, huh.

If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke 9:23

This verse isn't about how to get into heaven.

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. Matt 16:25

When are you going to "lose your own life" in order to find life? What is your plan?

Strangely the concept of loses ones life in Christ is a qualification of devotion and commitment as opposed to trying to keep ones life.

And has nothing to do with getting into heaven.

So the above is very concrete, if you do not pass the exam or test you have nothing.

Which of these verses even mentions an exam or test?

Oddly you believe is you have faith in Jesus you will be saved.

Because that's what the Bible says. But one would have to KNOW that.

So, I'll share this KNOWLEDGE with you.
Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, please count how many of these verses specifically about salvation/eternal life mentions some kind of exam.

That is a test or exam or qualification to receive a reward.

This is correct. We ARE evaluated regarding our behavior for eternal reward IN heaven. Many will FAIL that exam and "have no inheritance IN the kingdom". Just as the Bible says in 1 Cor 6, Eph 5 and Gal 5.

You appear to dislike the word reward or a bargain, which leads me to suggest you are like the universalists, close to declaring all are actually saved.

Well, let me give you some KNOWLEDGE, which YOU appear to dislike. In NO uncertain terms, everyone is NOT SAVED. Only believers in Christ are saved.

btw, I LOVE the word REWARD. And I am looking forward to my reward for faithful service to the King.

If not it is hard to say the only reason people should be tortured in hell is because they say a few words.

Who EVER said anything about "saying a few words"? That isn't saving faith. I've already explained what saving faith is. So please don't make this sloppy mistake again.

All human beings are BORN headed for hell because of John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[FreeGrace2]

An exam without an exam.

Confusion.

No words spoken needed. No doctrine read and understood. No change in ones heart. No repentance of sins or faith placed in the cross.
It is all a free gift given to everyone.

Where in the world do you get this nonsense?

The free gift is eternal life. And it is given to all, because if one is given it without any criteria or qualification, then all are given it, or no one is given it, or it is just a random choosing of individuals, some to fry some to heaven.

Please just read the 24 verses I shared in my previous post.

And the cause of this? No qualification or exam for entry.

It seems you are hard of hearing/listening/understanding.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Intellectual assent or heart change

The intellect is a series of thought processes which lead to a conclusion. It is just a model and does not relate to behaviour or wisdom or choice. So a man with no intellect but does the right thing is better than a man who understands all yet does everything wrong. Understanding and knowledge only have value if put into effect.

So the measure of wisdom is action. Action can be words spoken, gifts given, support provided, forgiveness sought.

But without the emotional background the actions will never happen. You can know you should not hate x, but you still do so will not behave as you ought. So intellectual understanding only provides a framework, it is ones heart, emotions, motivations that provide the power for action.

So without the heart change one is bound to sin and destructive behaviours which govern the world and lead people to death and hell.
We do not enter heaven because of our hearts, our emotional motivations and actions. These things are who we are. But a previso is our actions that result from our hearts balancing out distorted emotions and motivations to bring love and glory to God. It is this ability to change our core processes to bring out righteousness which is our walk of redemption and sanctification, that needs patience, endurance and perseverance.

I'm going to make an observation here.

When I respond to your posts, I address your points, sometimes sentence by sentence, or paragraph by paragraph. And I quote verses that support my points.

And you? You don't deal with any of my points, nor provide Scripture (most of the time) to support your points.

So, what kind of conclusion does this mean? That you have no foundation for your beliefs. Only feelings. No knowledge.

In spite of my clear explanations, you still demonstrate a total failure of understanding of anything I post.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Hi Free,

You do not like the idea the Lord qualifies those called, He chooses them.
Many are called, few are chosen.

This is the language you dislike and reject. Whether I quote scripture or not,
it is obvious this is what the Lord does.

Able was accepted, Cain was rejected.
Job was praised for being righteous. Abraham obeyed God and His faith was
counted as righteousness.

These are all qualifying statements.
Why are you fearful of choice by the Lord?
He talks of the servants given much and asked about how they invested their
talents. The one who did not invest was rejected.

Put simply you cannot have a heaven and hell unless one has measures and
balances. The idea of good points balancing out bad points is not scriptural.
Walking in repentance and walking righteously is as described in

Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.'
If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.
Ezek 33:12-13

But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Ezek 18:21-24

God does not change or how He deals with sinners. Ezekiel lays out His grace and eternal reality of dealing with people in present time.

Death is deemed to be judgement, and life is eternal life and blessing.

How is it that to your mind God is no longer the God of righteousness, justice and truth, but of a bound promise to sinners who have not listen or obeyed His word?

And if Gods word and authority does not emotionally stir you then nothing will.
I do fear for people like you and for yourself how the clear principles the Lord lays you you chose to rebel against. It is not me who will stand in judgement of you, but the Lords words and Jesus himself declared,

There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
John 12:48

And if you believe Jesus's words contradict the Father listen again to Jesus

I and the Father are one. John 10:30

If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
John 15:10

So if you think Jesus is laying down a different principle than His Father, you have got the wrong understanding of Jesus's words, because Jesus is Gods word to us, the essence of all that went before.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I read yesterday a long rejection of the Father and Jesus with this simple sentence.
The old testament is for the Jews, Jesus's words are for the Jews so do not apply to gentile christians.

With these few words, they dismissed any discussion and authority of God, Jesus had over them. For a believer these words are astounding, but then they cannot be His sheep, because no sheep rejects the Father or the Son and words that are eternal, for everyone, though spoken in the context of the temple, now our bodies, and the vine, now our vine into which we are grafted.

So if one is a gentile and not grafted into the people of God one is not a believer. By these very words of exclusion, where they exclude themselves from Jesus and His authority they exclude themselves from the promises and inheritence. But these hypocrites like the promises so they will claim them even though they exclude other parts of the same speeches as not applying to them because of the audience. You have to be crazy to believe like this. When Jesus rejects them as not being in the body and not known to Him, they will say, oh you mean those guys over there, you could not possibly mean me. Then it will strike home that Jesus meant everything He said for everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi Free,

You do not like the idea the Lord qualifies those called, He chooses them.
Many are called, few are chosen.

Actually, you don't have any idea about what I like or not. So why do you so pompously claim that you do know?

I LOVE the FACT that Jesus has called many, but chosen few. But I would guess that you don't understand what Jesus meant when He said that.

This is the language you dislike and reject. Whether I quote scripture or not, it is obvious this is what the Lord does.

And, contrary to your faulty assumptions, I LOVE what the Lord does.

Able was accepted, Cain was rejected.
Job was praised for being righteous. Abraham obeyed God and His faith was
counted as righteousness.

And I LOVE the FACT that Christ's righteousness is credited (counted) to us on the basis of faith in Him.

These are all qualifying statements.
Why are your fearful of choice by the Lord?

Why do you so pompously (and erroneously) judge what I might fear or not?

He talks of the servants given much and asked about how they invested their talents. The one who did not invest was rejected.

Exactly what was he rejected from?

Put simply you cannot have a heaven and hell unless one has measures and
balances.

OK, so now we're moving from exam week to a pair of scales. Except neither of these things are EVER mentioned in relation to how one receives salvation. But it seems you don't KNOW that.

The idea of good points balancing out bad points is not scriptural.

Correct.

Walking in repentance and walking righteously is as described in

Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. Ezek 33:12-13

But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Ezek 18:21-24

Now that you've quotes a passage, please explain what it all means.

God does not change or how He deals with sinners.

Correct. And I LOVE that.

Ezekiel lays out His grace and eternal reality of dealing with people in present time.

So do the NT writers.

Death is deemed to be judgement, and life is eternal life and blessing.

Apparently you erroneously assumed that "death" in the Ezekiel passage above referred to hell. Well, the very context shows what he meant; physical death. As judgment for unrighteous living.

How is it that to your mind God is no longer the God of righteousness, justice and truth, but of a bound promise to sinners who have not listen or obeyed His word?

Your question is absurd, makes no sense, and, once again, comes from a pompous assumption about what is in my mind. You're not even close to KNOWING any of that. So don't pretend that you do.

And if Gods word and authority does not emotionally stir you then nothing will.

I never said it didn't. That's only your pompous and erroneous assumption.

I do fear for people like you and for yourself how the clear principles the Lord lays you you chose to rebel against.

So now Dr FeelGood has become judge and jury, huh?

Apparently you DON'T KNOW the Scripture:
"judge not, lest you be judged". Matt 7:1, Luke 6:37

It is not me who will stand in judgement of you, but the Lords words and Jesus himself declared,

And...now you're His spokesman, huh?

There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
John 12:48

It is your own words that I have rejected, not the Lord's words. Your words of feelings and emotions over KNOWLEDGE of God's Word.

And if you believe Jesus's words contradict the Father listen again to Jesus

What a stupid comment.

So if you think Jesus is laying down a different principle than His Father, you have got the wrong understanding of Jesus's words, because Jesus is Gods word to us, the essence of all that went before.

You not only have the wrong understanding of Scripture, you also have the wrong understanding of what I have posted to you.[/QUOTE]

 

[LightLoveHope]

On the point of answering things point by point, I find this style meaningless.
Each individual makes a series of points linked together to form a whole.
We need to address the whole, not its individual parts. And often people will
not change their views until the fuller context is painted. So this is where I concentrate.

Free, your points have never answered the thrust of my position. God blesses righteous
walking, consistency, a lifetime spent dedicated to eternity and His principles.

There is nothing is scripture that allows us to compromise this. Compromise was measured
with death. And not death by natural causes but people being struck dead.
Man gathering wood on the sabbath. Num 15:35
Korahs rebellion, his family swallowed up by the ground Num 26:10
Man steadying the ark on a cart, killed. 1 Chronicles 13:10
Ananias and Saphara lying to the Lord, killed. Acts 5:5

God has not changed. It is foolish, and unbelief to paint that the Lord, His nature and His dealings are less than Holy and just. The apostles put it like this

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
2 Peter 2:20-21

Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
2 Peter 2:2

What Peter declares is happening today. Leaders who are corrupt liars, teachers of hypocracy and error, are found in sin, forgiven and then allowed to continue as before, as if they have something of value, but the very thing they share has no standards or righteousness, no conviction of sin or calling people to repentance and humbling before the Lord. Such people emphasis faith without anything else, but then as they are not going to despise themselves they cannot preach anything else.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You not only have the wrong understanding of Scripture, you also have the wrong understanding of what I have posted to you

Free, I am not here to understand you. I will share my position and other positions which I do not accept. I do not know where you stand on these, and as soon as it becomes I do not believe.... you say I believe.... things have gone wrong.

I hope you understand why I walk as I walk. If you want to say it is just "emotions", that is your call. I am not here to defend anything or even respond necessarily.

I will suggest problems with groups I have met and their approach.

As far as I can tell, your responses have failed to address how we qualify to receive the Holy Spirit other than to "believe" without defining what that is. It is a neat illusion when words are used to mean something, but the meaning is missed out.

At a base introduction level, believe is to walk as Ezek 18:21 describes that is the beginning.

What is disturbing is to find believers who then get angry at this point.
Anger at righteous walking is sin. His sheep rejoice at people who do good, no matter who they are, literally. We are the people of the light to bring light to the world so that it might know love and walk in His ways. Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Simple argument visual
Gods word => implication taken => implication rejected <= rejection because not Gods.

Both sides of the debate take the same process and end up with different implications.
There are though extreme interpretations that are clearly wrong and others that are
close to being consistent. In the consistent arena traditional positions predominate.

So to ease communication one method is to say which traditions ones align to.
Weslyian, methodist would be my group, with baptist charismatic emphasis.
I am part calvanist, part armenian, we are chosen and redeemed yet can choose to
walk away, though His sheep will not.

What has hardened for me most recently is the observation that fundamentally people
reflect the faith and positions that reflect their personality and tensions. So a drug
addict will tend to believe in a perfect spirit and fallen flesh, because that is what they
experience in addiction ( gnostic in its most extreme form )

Someone who has difficulties with love and intimacy will tend to hold faith assent
rather than an open heart and empathy, because that is where they are.

A non-boundary mothering person will tend to be all acceptance and love will set
the hardest sinner on the straight and narrow, and probably will tend towards
universalism, and everyone is just naughty, with a few niggles that need putting right.

I believe Christ calls us to be greater than these things and to see ourselves as part
of His body, which is all aspects working together as one. But that is a difficult path
to work against ones own tendencies and find this place of His will. But it is just
the next step that matters, and God be praised, I can do that, Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

So why do you so pompously claim that you do know?

Am I being pompous?
I have learnt when people want to claim something, reflecting it back to them often clarifies their position and how it comes across.

One believer disliked me doing this, because what they said sounded to them fantastic, but when I put it in another context, they realised it did not work and was actually not good at all.

So maybe to someone else it is pompous to do this, but if one fells the other party are being pompous, maybe it is a reflection on their own feelings and their belief they are so right, there is no flaw or problem, so any other view is empty pomposity. I have read people saying in effect for anyone to hold morality has value is just self righteous pomposity, which in effect is saying being a reprobate is where everyone is and should be, and we can do nothing about it.

My response to this approach is this is what the world claims, not believers. Our faith and its transformation of ourselves, our hearts, minds, emotions is what drives us forward. It is why we love Jesus because we know first hand His words have power when put into effect.