Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

[Pneuma3]

What you are saying is that they will end up in hell until they change their minds and accept God---thst is what you and CofA said, right?

By hell you are referring to the 2nd DEATH correct?

When God judges man by the law it produces a cross that is why the law is a ministration of DEATH and our schoolmaster that leads to CHRIST.

While our old man is being destroyed we weep and wail and gnash our teeth. It is not pleasant but the destruction of the old man must occur for CHRIST to come to the fore.

Thus Paul said it is no longer I that live but CHRIST that liveth in me, yet I live.

I can't speak for clement MM, but I do know that I have a different understanding in many areas from my brothers and sister who believe as I do in the salvation of all. However what we all agree on is the final outcome, Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN.

 

[mmksparbud]

By hell you are referring to the 2nd DEATH correct?

When God judges man by the law it produces a cross that is why the law is a ministration of DEATH and our schoolmaster that leads to CHRIST.

While our old man is being destroyed we weep and wail and gnash our teeth. It is not pleasant but the destruction of the old man must occur for CHRIST to come to the fore.

Thus Paul said it is no longer I that live but CHRIST that liveth in me, yet I live.

I can't speak for clement MM, but I do know that I have a different understanding in many areas from my brothers and sister who believe as I do in the salvation of all. However what we all agree on is the final outcome, Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN.

Al that repent!! Nothing saves you out of the 2nd death. You are entitled to your believes.

 

[Pneuma3]

Al that repent!! Nothing saves you out of the 2nd death. You are entitled to your believes.

There is a natural death and a spiritual death, the law is spiritual and is the 2nd death spoken of in Rev.

but I will leave it at that for now. If perchance you have other questions jjust let me know and I will do my best to answer them.

God bless

 

[ClementofA]

Wrong---I am teaching what Jesus taught---
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There's no mention of "eternal punishment" in Mt.10:28 or anywhere else in the Scriptures.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will. Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.

In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

Definition of DESTROY

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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[ClementofA]

You believe that His justice makes Him a monster---if you are right--I will be saved anyway---if you are wrong your view of God as being a monster for being just puts you in the position of standing with the lost against Him.

Are you suggesting that if a Christian does not have a 100% perfect understanding of God's justice they will be annihilated forever? That all Christians who believe in (1) endless torments or (2) universalism or (3) they hope everyone will be saved or (4) they just don't know will be annihilated forever? If so just how "few" will the final number of the saved be out of billions of human beings? Do people have to have all their doctrines 100% right & in agreement with SDA to be saved? Or can they have some doctrines that are "against Him" in His views? Do you have every doctrine 100% correct? What makes you think that you will be one of the allegedly "few" saved & not endlessly annihilated?

So---since you think that God would be totally wrong and barbaric and worse than Hitler for annihilating anyone---

Where did i say that? Though for what purpose would Love Omnipotent annihilate anyone for whom He sent His Son to die & shed His precious blood for their salvation? Does His love have an expiry date like a milk carton? Is His hand shortened that it cannot save? Is it for anyone's good that anyone would be annihilated?

Not to worry, you won't have to worry about living with such a monster--for if He truly indeed does have a hell in which all unrepentant sinners, and anyone who
does not want to be with Him, will cease to exist ---you will not be living with Him. So either way, you will get what you want.

Who are you to judge who will be living with Him? Or what i want?

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[ClementofA]

God does what He has to for there are those that will not repent--that is it. He will not force anyone and you can not force love--by it's very nature, love requires freedom of choice---if their choice is to be annihilated rather than to live with God----that is what will happen. With all the discussion on this subject, and I have had them before with you---you have never been able to state a single verse that states there is a 2nd chance after hell---doesn't exist. You take verses out of context and you make assumptions and you add your philosophy to others. Like you did with the very words of Jesus. You reject the verses that you don't agree with and change others. There is absolutely no reason for me to agree with you theory. And what if you are wrong---what will you think of God? All you are basically saying is God is going to torture people until they say they to live by His rules. That is not love. Force and love can not reign together. No different than one these men who terrorize their women into being submissive to them. Not going to keep going over the same stuff we hashed over before.

That has been addressed before:

The concept that God is so loving that he will not annihilate anyone and so will send many to hell until they agree with Him is what a lot of men consider to be love.

Saving men into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like an endless Hitler-like gas chamber.

They will beat their significant other black and blue and then they claim to love them. Your concept paints a picture of a God that will torment and torture for who knows how long until they finally say "Yes! I love you!""

Suffering is the fate of humanity in this world. God allows it. He allows evil, torments & tortures. Even though He could easily stop it all. Therefore it must be for a good purpose.

In the book of Job the man named Job suffers the loss of his family, wealth & health. We are told that God removed His protection from Job & gave Satan permission to destroy Job's life. Thereafter He restored what Job had lost so that he had even more than before, both spiritually & materially.

Shades of the Spanish Inquisition---torture them until they recant and agree to their terms. That y0u call that love is not just ludicrous, but downright obscene.

Even - if - that were true, it would - still - be infinitely more loving than an endless annihilation Hitler-god. Do you not believe the Scriptures:

1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

2 Cor.12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

God's anger being corrective: "Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me." (Is.12:1)

The judgement of God's wrath corrects a sinner for his own good: "Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness." (Micah 7:9)

Even those whom He punished & they have refused to repent God promises to eventually heal & restore: Isa.57:16 For I will not accuse you forever, nor will I always be angry; for then the spirit of man would grow weak before Me, with the breath of those I have made. Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart. 18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners

Hab.1:12b O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

That anyone would rather die, permanently---cease to exist--the to be with God, you may find beyond comprehension ---but Satan would rather do so and His followers also.

Irrelevant. God knows what's best for them, namely being saved & living in endless bliss with Him. So even - if - anyone wished to be annihilated forever, Love would never grant such a wish. That would be unloving. Just as unloving as allowing a spoiled brat child to have its way in doing something that would cause his/her irreparable harm or death.

The thought of living forever with God is sheer torture to them--they love sin.

So does everyone until God works in their life.

Sin can not live in the presence of a holy and pure God.

Satan was in the presence of God. Read the book of Job.

And God does not force anyone to do His will.

God is patient. He has all eternity to wait for those in "hell" to repent. There are ages to come in which people can change their mind & turn to Love Omnipotent to receive His salvation in Christ. Until then they'll reap what they've sown. They won't know the peace, love or joy of God. They'll be in torments.

If we choose to be without the protection of Jesus---there is nothing that can protect anyone from the fire light that is God.

Love Omnipotent will protect them. Just as He does now. For in Him we all live & move & have our being.

It is not love to torture anyone into submission.

What would you call what is described in 1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20? Or what happened to Job in the book of Job? Or the thorn in the flesh Paul received? Or God's chastenings? Or being given to the tormentors till he pays (Mt.5 & 18)?

Mt.18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

Mt.5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Mal.3:2 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He will be like a refiner’s fire, like a launderer's soap.
3 And He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver. Then they will present offerings to the LORD in righteousness

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Love means allowing to choose death over life with Him of their own free will.

A loving parent doesn't allow their 5 year old child to foolishly choose a path leading to his/her death.

It is not love for anyone to force a another to stay with them out of fear of pain.

But it's okay with you if God coerces people to come to him by the tormenting painful fear of endless extermination out of existence? Is that what motivates endless annihilation believing people like Jehovah's Witnesses & your SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) folks?

The fact is the wicked are already empty & in pain without being in union with their Maker. They are reaping what they've sown. How much more so when the things of this world they loved are removed from them in the afterlife?

God spends our entire life calling us into His arms through Jesus---here is no 2nd chance. Believe what you want.

In light of the above, i'd suggest you spend more time in the Bible & believing what it says instead of "what you want".

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

 

[ClementofA]

This is the typical view of love. Beat them into submission.

God's love is demonstrated in Christ's incarnation, life, sufferings & death. That is His sacrificial love for the salvation of all. Then there is His tough love, as in rebukes, chastisement, punishment, wrath, judgement, imprisonment, anger, etc, also always for the good of created beings.

I have no doubt that if you have children, the home will be fine and happy as long as everyone does what you want. Beating a child until he surrenders his will for fear of pain is what many parents consider to be loving parents. There are parents in jail right now for that.

So what are you suggesting? God should be put in jail for removing His protection from Job & allowing Satan to destroy Job's health? Or for fire bombing Sodom? Or sending a flood to drown to world, little children included? Or allowing countless torments & tortures every second of every day of every year?

That one couple in the news not too long ago--chained up their kids for years --but they still do not think they did anything wrong---they were doing what was best for them.

So do you think God is evil for chaining evil spirits unto the day of judgement (Jude 1:6). Or casting beings into the lake of fire where they'll be tormented "to/into the eons of the eons"? Or sending the wicked to Hades where they're being tormented?

Or the pain of letting the one you love to do as they wish.

No one in their right mind wishes to be annihilated forever. The sane wish to live forever in endless blessedness. All of creation, even insects, fight for survival & not to die.

If a wife or husband wants to leave them---beat them until they stay -- and then they will be happy.

You're comparing this with God casting the wicked into Hades & the lake of fire? Or are you suggesting that what God allows, & how He deals with, the church, His bride, is wrong, e.g.:

Heb.12:4 Not yet have you resisted unto blood, struggling against sin, 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as to sons: “My son, do not regard lightly the Lord’s discipline,nor faint being reproved by Him. 6 For the Lord disciplines whom He loves, and He scourges every son whom He receives.a 7 If you endure discipline, God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which they have all become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore indeed, we have had fathers of our flesh, correctors, and we respected them; and shall we not much more be in subjection to the Father of spirits and shall live? 10 For truly they were disciplining us for a few days, according to that seeming good to them; but He for our benefitting, in order to share His holiness. 11 And all discipline indeed for those being present, does not seem to be of joy, but of grief; but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those having been trained by it.

God is willing to suffer the pain of letting a child go their won way and end up ceasing to exist rather than to beat them into a submission that leaves them resentful and full of anger and hatred.

Where does Scripture say God will "beat them into a submission"? Would that change their hearts? People's own sins will torment them in "hell". Like they do in this life.

He will miss them forever--the pain will be His--not theirs. Self-centered people can not comprehend that kind of love.

Love Omnipotent has no need to be forever in pain or miss anyone forever. He is quite capable of bringing all to salvation & never giving up on anyone. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk. Neither does the blood of Jesus poured out for all. Nor is the Almighty too weak to save, as if the will & mind of man could overpower & outwit the All Knowing One for all eternity. Saving all into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like your endless Hitler-like gas chamber SDA god. Yet you falsely accuse the Universalist God of the Holy Scriptures of being unloving.

Slave owners felt that the blacks were better off as slaves, where they had all their needs taken care of and would whip them skinless for running away until they remained --nice and happy to be there. They felt slaves were ungrateful for their care. That is the kind of God you people want--the plantation owner with a whip to keep His slaves happy.

Who ever said that God's chastisements, wrath, punishments, etc, will make anyone happy? That would make no sense. But you do seem to have a problem with believing the Scriptures i posted regarding such things. Are all SDA's of the same view as yours? I suggest you check with your leaders to see if they would approve of what you've been posting here.

Have you never read the OT with the lists of curses & blessings? Blessings to those who obey & curses to those who rebel? Or the punishments God brought on Israel time and time again to bring them to repentance & back to Him? My previous post to you was full of Scriptures showing the things God brought on people for their own good, to correct their souls. Are you rejecting Scripture in favor of your own human opinions?

God is love---self sacrificing love. It is not an attribute--it is what He is. He is not selfish and self centered.

Correct.

He offers eternal life--a life without tears, sorrow, pain, filled with beauty. Anyone can have it, that is why He died for us to be able to have it. He is not selfish enough to force this life on anyone.

Why would it be selfish to force something good on someone, as opposed to annihilating them forever out of existence like an endless Hitler like gas chamber? Not that Love Omnipotent needs to force salvation on anyone, since it is impossible anyone would reject Him for eternity. BTW, does your SDA god force the saved to remain in heaven forever & not give them a free will choice to rebel like the angels in heaven did? Does he force & cause those who reject him to be annihilated against their will?

They must want to be there and be there with Him, not out of fear of being tortured, but out of love for Him.

The impression i've gotten from some JW annihilationists is they are motivated by fear of being annihilated forever. Ideally, when people are perfected in love, fear of God's judgement (e.g. hell) is cast out (1 John 4):

God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 In this, love has been perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment that, just as He is, also are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Please note also that perfect love is referred to in both verses 17 & 18.

If you are still fearing "hell", you have not been "perfected in love" (1 Jn.4:17-19).

V.19 We love because He first loved us. Not because of a make-believe children's bed time horror fantasy about being tortured in fire for eternity.

Are those who profess Christ merely out of fear, i.e. for "fire insurance", even saved?

Do they serve the Scriptural God Who is love, or a false god of fear? Such as Ra, Allah, & Molech, who are inventions of Satan?

The Biblical kind of fear of God that a Christian should have is not a tormenting, paralyzing, destructive fear, but a reverential awe & respect:

"Definition: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect." Strong's Greek: 5401. φόβος (phobos) -- panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror

Those who love, will be there---those who do not, simply can not tolerate His presence and can not live in it.

Misbehaving children may find it difficult to be in the presence of their parents. That doesn't lead good parents to throw them out into a dumpster to rot forever.

I pray you will one day learn what true, unselfish love really means.

I pray you will one day accept the Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures instead of the SDA & JW horror flick Hitler god fantasy of him.

---

George MacDonald The Consuming Fire
Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: The Consuming Fire

 

[mmksparbud]

God's love is demonstrated in Christ's incarnation, life, sufferings & death. That is His sacrificial love for the salvation of all. Then there is His tough love, as in rebukes, chastisement, punishment, wrath, judgement, imprisonment, anger, etc, also always for the good of created beings.



So what are you suggesting? God should be put in jail for removing His protection from Job & allowing Satan to destroy Job's health? Or for fire bombing Sodom? Or sending a flood to drown to world, little children included? Or allowing countless torments & tortures every second of every day of every year?



So do you think God is evil for chaining evil spirits unto the day of judgement (Jude 1:6). Or casting beings into the lake of fire where they'll be tormented "to/into the eons of the eons"? Or sending the wicked to Hades where they're being tormented?



No one in their right mind wishes to be annihilated forever. The sane wish to live forever in endless blessedness. All of creation, even insects, fight for survival & not to die.



You're comparing this with God casting the wicked into Hades & the lake of fire? Or are you suggesting that what God allows, & how He deals with, the church, His bride, is wrong, e.g.:

Heb.12:4 Not yet have you resisted unto blood, struggling against sin, 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as to sons: “My son, do not regard lightly the Lord’s discipline,nor faint being reproved by Him. 6 For the Lord disciplines whom He loves, and He scourges every son whom He receives.a 7 If you endure discipline, God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which they have all become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore indeed, we have had fathers of our flesh, correctors, and we respected them; and shall we not much more be in subjection to the Father of spirits and shall live? 10 For truly they were disciplining us for a few days, according to that seeming good to them; but He for our benefitting, in order to share His holiness. 11 And all discipline indeed for those being present, does not seem to be of joy, but of grief; but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those having been trained by it.



Where does Scripture say God will "beat them into a submission"? Would that change their hearts? People's own sins will torment them in "hell". Like they do in this life.



Love Omnipotent has no need to be forever in pain or miss anyone forever. He is quite capable of bringing all to salvation & never giving up on anyone. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk. Neither does the blood of Jesus poured out for all. Nor is the Almighty too weak to save, as if the will & mind of man could overpower & outwit the All Knowing One for all eternity. Saving all into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like your endless Hitler-like gas chamber SDA god. Yet you falsely accuse the Universalist God of the Holy Scriptures of being unloving.



Who ever said that God's chastisements, wrath, punishments, etc, will make anyone happy? That would make no sense. But you do seem to have a problem with believing the Scriptures i posted regarding such things. Are all SDA's of the same view as yours? I suggest you check with your leaders to see if they would approve of what you've been posting here.

Have you never read the OT with the lists of curses & blessings? Blessings to those who obey & curses to those who rebel? Or the punishments God brought on Israel time and time again to bring them to repentance & back to Him? My previous post to you was full of Scriptures showing the things God brought on people for their own good, to correct their souls. Are you rejecting Scripture in favor of your own human opinions?



Correct.



Why would it be selfish to force something good on someone, as opposed to annihilating them forever out of existence like an endless Hitler like gas chamber? Not that Love Omnipotent needs to force salvation on anyone, since it is impossible anyone would reject Him for eternity. BTW, does your SDA god force the saved to remain in heaven forever & not give them a free will choice to rebel like the angels in heaven did? Does he force & cause those who reject him to be annihilated against their will?



The impression i've gotten from some JW annihilationists is they are motivated by fear of being annihilated forever. Ideally, when people are perfected in love, fear of God's judgement (e.g. hell) is cast out (1 John 4):

God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 In this, love has been perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment that, just as He is, also are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Please note also that perfect love is referred to in both verses 17 & 18.

If you are still fearing "hell", you have not been "perfected in love" (1 Jn.4:17-19).

V.19 We love because He first loved us. Not because of a make-believe children's bed time horror fantasy about being tortured in fire for eternity.

Are those who profess Christ merely out of fear, i.e. for "fire insurance", even saved?

Do they serve the Scriptural God Who is love, or a false god of fear? Such as Ra, Allah, & Molech, who are inventions of Satan?

The Biblical kind of fear of God that a Christian should have is not a tormenting, paralyzing, destructive fear, but a reverential awe & respect:

"Definition: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect." Strong's Greek: 5401. φόβος (phobos) -- panic flight, fear, the causing of fear, terror



Misbehaving children may find it difficult to be in the presence of their parents. That doesn't lead good parents to throw them out into a dumpster to rot forever.



I pray you will one day accept the Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures instead of the SDA & JW horror flick Hitler god fantasy of him.

---

George MacDonald The Consuming Fire
Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: The Consuming Fire

Sorry--but I am not into repeating over and over the same things with the same people! I will not go on over this issue with you as I have said all there is to say and you have said all there is to say from your perspective. I do not, will never see it your way. God wants everyone to be saved-that doesn't mean He makes anyone to choose Him, If they don't want Him, then He can not help them. He is a devouring fire to those without His protection, we will live in His fire because His blood protects us, with that, we can not live in that fire--sin can not live in His presence.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

It is not the wicked that live in an everlasting fire---it is the saved. As Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego did---as the burning bush with Moses we an live in His presence--sin can not. Sin is as a drop of water on the sun. Not that the sun wants to kill it--that is just what happens without the blood of Jesus.
I will not keep saying this, so you may have the last word.

 

[ClementofA]

Sorry--but I am not into repeating over and over the same things with the same people! I will not go on over this issue with you as I have said all there is to say and you have said all there is to say from your perspective. I do not, will never see it your way. God wants everyone to be saved-that doesn't mean He makes anyone to choose Him, If they don't want Him, then He can not help them. He is a devouring fire to those without His protection, we will live in His fire because His blood protects us, with that, we can not live in that fire--sin can not live in His presence.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

It is not the wicked that live in an everlasting fire---it is the saved. As Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego did---as the burning bush with Moses we an live in His presence--sin can not. Sin is as a drop of water on the sun. Not that the sun wants to kill it--that is just what happens without the blood of Jesus.
I will not keep saying this, so you may have the last word.

Nothing there says anyone is annihilated into endless oblivion.

More literal & accurate translations say:

Young's Literal Translation
14 Afraid in Zion have been sinners, Seized hath trembling the profane: Who doth dwell for us -- consuming fire, Who doth dwell for us -- burnings of the age?

14 Afraid are the sinners in Zion, quivering holds the polluted. Who is telling you of the devouring fire? Who is telling you of the glowings eonian? (CLV)

14 Terror-stricken in Zion,—are sinners, Shuddering hath seized the impious,—Who among us can sojourn with a fire that devoureth? Who among us can sojourn with burnings age-abiding? (RO)

Compare Jude 1:7 which also speaks of "eonian fire", the fire which killed those in Sodom. Were those of Sodom annihilated forever by that "eonian fire"? No, just their bodies were killed, not their souls or spirits. And even their bodies were only killed temporarily until the resurrection. Their bodies were turned into ashes, which BTW is the same language used in Isaiah 33:

11b Your breath is a fire that will consume you. 12a The peoples will be burned to ashes

Bodies are turned to ashes, not souls or spirits. So v.12 is speaking only of their bodies. It tell us nothing about the final destiny of their souls.

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

That word "aionios" [eonian] is the same Greek word used in Jude 1:7 and the equivalent of the Hebrew word olam in Isa.33:14.

More examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

And what is the conclusion of the matter according to Isaiah 45:

22“Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’d

24“Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,
are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed
all who were incensed against him.
25In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
shall be justified and shall glory.”

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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[mmksparbud]

We have not discussed body and soul before, that I remember---so --there is no such thing as the soul apart from the body. there are no bodiless souls up in heaven--our souls and our bodies are together.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen_6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Gen_7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen_7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
2Sa_22:16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.
Job_4:9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

God breathed into a sculpture made of dust--it became a living soul. Without that breath--Adam would have remained a pile of dust. It was the same breath that made all the living things alive--His breath is life. There is no immortal soul---being without breath, is being without the body is being dead.
At death, that spark of life goes back to God who gave it. God alone is immortal.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Adam and Eve were not immortal--
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The concept of the immortal soul is of Greek origin.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Those that die the first death are not dead--they are sleeping---Jesus is the life, He is the resurrection--when He speaks we awake. The saved will be resurrected at His coming--the wicked after the 1000 years. Nothing says that in hell only the boy dies but the soul keeps on living---When they die in hell---that is the 2nd death from which there is no coming back to life. The breath of life goes back to God and stays there. All sin is done away with because all sinners will be gone.
There are about 12 people resurrected in the bible---including Lazarus---not a single one had one single thing to say about having been in heaven. If Lazarus had been in heaven , I doubt he would have been very happy about coming back here--if he had been in hell Jesus would not have left Him there suffering all that time. Either way--he would have been talking about it.
I've heard all the arguments on this, I already know what your arguments will be---this is another area where we wll not agree.
Every knee will bow--from Satan on down--there will be no other choice--they know their end, they know they haven failed, are wrong, they have to acknowledge now that Jesus is God and that He is just for their end. They acknowledge the justice of God--their hearts have not changed--At some point, When Jesus brings down the New Jerusalem , they encompass it and try to take it by force--that is their end--
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That is their hell -- and death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels and the false prophet--the rest of the wicked were devoured with the fire from heaven.

I have to go now.

 

[ClementofA]

Nothing says that in hell only the boy [body] dies but the soul keeps on living---When they die in hell---that is the 2nd death from which there is no coming back to life.

See Luke 16:19-31; Rev.14:9-11; 20:10. They are conscious in "hell". Not annihilated.

Do you believe that when Jesus died He ceased to exist?

Perhaps you'ld like to consider these Scriptures in opposition to the "soul sleep" theory:

Jesus also told the dying thief, “Today you shall be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43).”
Jesus tells Martha, “Whoever lives and believes in me shall never die (John 11:26).”
Moses and Elijah return to converse with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:1-9).
The righteous dead are alive in heaven and able to speak in Rev. 6:10.
Paul implies that at death he will immediately be enjoying Christ’s presence: “I am hard pressed between the 2 (choices): my desire is to depart and be with Christ;
for that is far better.; for to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you (Philippians 1:23-24).”

...The NDEs and ADCs and the accompanying videos are far more impressive evidence
for immediate postmortem survival...

Speaking in Tongues: Its Power and My Dilemma

And these Scriptures:

(1) Unbelievers:

In hell are conscious and in torment (Luke 16:23);
Are “under punishment [after death] until the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9);
(2) Believers:

Are immediately in Paradise at death (Luke 23:43);
Long for a heavenly dwelling (2 Cor. 5:2);

Are away from the body [at death] and are at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8);

Deaths are gain (Phil. 1:21) and they depart at death to “be with Christ” (Phil. 1:23);

Who are martyred souls “cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord . . .” (Rev. 6:9-11). They were conscious after death so that they could speak to the Lord.

...Dr. Morey (2006) provides these verses as “the primary NT texts that refute soul sleep”: Matt. 22:23-33; Lk. 16:19-31; Lk. 23:43; Acts 7:59; 2 Cor. 5:1-10; Phil 1:21-25; Heb. 12:18-24.

Soul Sleep: A Refutation


Groups like JW's, Christadelphians, 7th Day Adventists, & some annihilationists i've encountered on forums believe in "soul sleep", whereas the historic Christian church has rejected the "soul sleep" viewpoint. Both sides present many verses allegedly supporting their POV re how they harmonize the Scriptures on this topic. Following are some sites that offer verses in favor of the majority historic Christian teaching & how they harmonize passages that annihilationists present:

Refuting the Jehovah's Witnesses on Soul Sleep

"Soul Sleep": A Thorough Biblical Refutation

Settling the Soul Sleep Controversy

How do we refute the "soul sleep" argument? | Catholic Answers

Soul Sleep: A Refutation

If people who die don't go to heaven, hell, paradise or Hades, where do they go? Nowhere? Do they become nonexistent? Do they go into oblivion, until a recreation from the mind of God? Are they nothing until God makes them again from the earth like He created Adam? Do they have no awareness or consciousness, no thoughts or feelings, no actions or choices, until their resurrection?

If you no longer exist, then how can the you that is resurrected not be a copy or recreation of the you that used to exist?

What would be the point of a saved person ceasing to exist for thousands of years? To what purpose? Did Jesus not say he would never leave us?

Do you believe that when Jesus died He ceased to exist?

More Scriptures for "soul sleep" advocates to take into consideration:

I derive my view from these three passages.
In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
.....The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
In the New Testament Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Some more questions for "soul sleep" believers:

What would be the point of “soul sleep”. What purpose?

Once a soul has been created, this unique spirit… what would be the purpose of God taking the batteries out of us, so to speak, and essentially turning us off for a period of time?

Do you believe in Soul Sleep?

There has to be something that IS YOU that survives your death otherwise you can not be brought back to life, only a copy or clone of you could.

Lets say that when you die all that remains of you is a perfect memory of you in Gods head or mind. His information about you will be flawless but its still not you, its information about you.

God can use this information to re-create or 'resurrect' another you (ie a perfect copy) but it won't be you, it will just be a copy. As the information that God has is about you
and not you then he could use this information to resurrect (or re-create) you multiple times, there could be a hundred you's running around in heaven, each a copy of the original (with a new body of course), but none of them actually the you that lived and died on earth and made the choice for God.

Its like saying, will God and Jesus be happy to surround themselves in heaven with a copy of everyone who was saved or will they want it to be the actual people who lived, toiled, suffered and died and chose Jesus. If its the latter then something that is you must survive your death, if its the former, then all that matters is that the information about you survives in some storage medium until required.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-state-of-the-dead.8074136/page-2#post-72972191

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/index.html

213 Questions Without Answers:
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[Choir Loft]

We have not discussed body and soul before, that I remember---so --there is no such thing as the soul apart from the body. there are no bodiless souls up in heaven--our souls and our bodies are together.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
* * * *
Adam and Eve were not immortal--
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
* * * *
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
* * * *
The concept of the immortal soul is of Greek origin.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
* * * *
Those that die the first death are not dead--they are sleeping---

Jesus is the life, He is the resurrection--when He speaks we awake. The saved will be resurrected at His coming--the wicked after the 1000 years. Nothing says that in hell only the boy dies but the soul keeps on living---When they die in hell---that is the 2nd death from which there is no coming back to life. The breath of life goes back to God and stays there. All sin is done away with because all sinners will be gone.

There are about 12 people resurrected in the bible---including Lazarus---not a single one had one single thing to say about having been in heaven. If Lazarus had been in heaven , I doubt he would have been very happy about coming back here--if he had been in hell Jesus would not have left Him there suffering all that time. Either way--he would have been talking about it.
I've heard all the arguments on this, I already know what your arguments will be---this is another area where we wll not agree.
Every knee will bow--from Satan on down--there will be no other choice--they know their end, they know they haven failed, are wrong, they have to acknowledge now that Jesus is God and that He is just for their end. They acknowledge the justice of God--their hearts have not changed--At some point, When Jesus brings down the New Jerusalem , they encompass it and try to take it by force--that is their end--
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That is their hell -- and death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The lake of fire is for Satan and his angels and the false prophet--the rest of the wicked were devoured with the fire from heaven.

I have to go now.

My post here is an attempt to clarify some of the points mentioned in the quote above as well as to reiterate my own position that hell, as a doctrine of eternal torment of the wicked, does not exist and is not suggested by any passage of scripture. The wicked are utterly destroyed and eliminated for all time. God does not run a torture chamber in the bowels of the earth. Eternal life is reserved only for the just.

Post #830 (in purple text above) says hell is of Greek origin.

In clarification of the historic reference, the idea that some portion of a human being has an indestructible quality which survives physical death can be traced to ancient Egypt. (source: Encyclopedia Brittanica) The Greek historian Herodotus informs us that the Greeks adopted and adapted the Egyptian religion into their own form. Following historic documentation we see that the church adopted and adapted Greek myths into its own doctrines of human origin. The Christian notion of the underworld was called Hell - adapted from the Greek Hades. Hades was brother to Poseidon and Zeus and his rule of the underworld eventually adopted his name - Hades. Neither term or word appears in the Bible except as translational alterations of the original Hebrew Aramaic and Greek.

Post #830 (in purple text above) says "those that die the first death are not dead --- they are sleeping".

In clarification of the Biblical reference above the term SHEOL is used in the original Hebrew. It originally meant all the dead, not the wicked or righteous only. Sheol was the place where disembodied human spirits called 'shades' (rephaim) exist without personality or strength. It is understood sheol is a place of temporary spirit-sleep. For example, in the first book of Samuel Saul goes to the witch of Endor, asks her to call up the spirit of Samuel and proceeds to have a conversation with the spirit of Samuel.

During translation of Hebrew scripture into Greek, the scribblers substituted hades or hell for the original Sheol, thus passing along their redefinition of the afterlife to future readers.

During the Second Temple, the doctrine of Sheol was altered to suggest that Sheol was a place where the wicked were sent after death. Either way, it is the abode of death-sleep. Nothing happens there to those who wait for Final Judgment.

Post #830 (in purple text) says there were a dozen people who were temporarily resurrected in the Bible. Matthew 27:52 states that when Jesus died upon the cross two things happened - the curtain of the temple was torn in two and the tombs of many holy people were opened, releasing them to walk through Jerusalem to be seen by many of the living. More than 12, obviously.

The curtain referred to was hung in the Holy Place in the temple and separated the Holy of Holies from the outer compartment of the Holy Place. It signified that the Mercy Seat of God (the Lid or removable top of the ark of the covenant) was open to those who approach God - not priests only. The ark is a figure of the Law, while the Lid (also called Mercy Seat) represents grace unto forgiveness. Together they represent divine qualities of judgment mingled with mercy.(*)

Post #830 states there is no such thing as a disembodied human spirit.

As discussed earlier, the Hebrew concept of Sheol suggests otherwise. Scripture forbids attempts to contact the spirits of the dead, however. They are to be allowed to rest until brought before God at Final Judgment.

Post #830 quotes Revelation 20:10 wherein death and false prophet and the beast are thrown into the lake of fire.

Earlier passages in Revelation define the beast as a symbol for debauched religion. Animal figures in Revelation all represent nations, religions, governmental systems as well as religious groups of people.

It is impossible for an organization or an idea to suffer pains of torture. Individuals suffer. Organizations and/or ideas do not. Therefore the passage is to be properly interpreted as an allegory - the destruction of a religious system along with its supporting ideology and infrastructure.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) In a rare point of theological accuracy the movie RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK features a scene where the Ark of the Covenant is opened. When the Lid (Mercy Seat) is removed, all sorts of avenging angels and spirits of judgment pop out and kill everyone except the hero and his girl friend. Removal of mercy results in merciless judgment according to the Law.

 

[Der Alte]

...begin

<CL>Post #830 (in purple text above) says hell is of Greek origin.
In clarification of the historic reference, the idea that some portion of a human being has an indestructible quality which survives physical death can be traced to ancient Egypt. (source: Encyclopedia Brittanica) The Greek historian Herodotus informs us that the Greeks adopted and adapted the Egyptian religion into their own form. Following historic documentation we see that the church adopted and adapted Greek myths into its own doctrines of human origin. The Christian notion of the underworld was called Hell - adapted from the Greek Hades. Hades was brother to Poseidon and Zeus and his rule of the underworld eventually adopted his name - Hades. Neither term or word appears in the Bible except as translational alterations of the original Hebrew Aramaic and Greek.
In clarification of the Biblical reference above the term SHEOL is used in the original Hebrew. It originally meant all the dead, not the wicked or righteous only. Sheol was the place where disembodied human spirits called 'shades' (rephaim) exist without personality or strength. It is understood sheol is a place of temporary spirit-sleep. For example, in the first book of Samuel Saul goes to the witch of Endor, asks her to call up the spirit of Samuel and proceeds to have a conversation with the spirit of Samuel.
During translation of Hebrew scripture into Greek, the scribblers substituted hades or hell for the original Sheol, thus passing along their redefinition of the afterlife to future readers.,<end>

end

Let me clarify something you claimed to clarify. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the translators of the 225 bc LXX knew what they were doing when they translated "sheol" and "gehinnom" as "hades." While the Egyptians may or may not have had some concept of "hell" and the Greeks may or may not have borrowed some of those ideas. I do not consider a secular encyclopedia a credible source for interpreting scripture. Here for your consideration three irrefutable Jewish sources which document a belief in some concept of "hell" before, during and after the time of Jesus.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
=================
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.

 

[ClementofA]

…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud,

I posted:

Where does any OT Scripture say "hell shall pass away"? Where does any OT Scripture say "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them"? Where does any OT Scripture say "heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews"? Those are all quotes by anti-Christian Jews from your post. Where does any OT Scripture support such opinions from anti-Christian Jewish sources?

Der Alter replied:

I'll tell you where scripture says all of this just as soon as you show me the scriptures which says "even if they do not repent in this life all the unrighteous, unrepentant will be saved after death" or words to that effect. And I don't mean quote verses which say "savior of the world."

The answer to that is another topic (already addressed elsewhere) than your post with quotes from anti-Christian Jews. You also posted some Scripture verses & then concluded Jesus' "teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell". You reach this conclusion because some of Jesus' words bear some similarity to what the Jewish quotes say, even though they are still quite different and don't arrive at the same conclusion of "eternal hell" which Jesus rejected. If Jesus meant to affirm a belief in "eternal hell" in an anti-Christian Jewish writing, why didn't He use the exact words? Or did He mean to reject their teaching by rejecting the language they used which affirms "eternal hell"?

Yet you have provided no evidence that the particular Jews Jesus was speaking to in any specific Scripture context held to such a belief at the time Christ spoke to them c. 30 AD. In fact you stated that there were a variety of beliefs among the Jews about the afterlife. So which of the various beliefs was Jesus supposedly affirming or rejecting? How would you know unless you compare some of the other Jewish views? Did they also use some phrases that were similar to Jesus' statements? If so, then how do you know which of the various Jewish views Jesus was rejecting or affirming?

You might want to actually read my post especially the Talmud which was compiled after the time of Jesus but quotes writings before the time of Jesus.

I did read it. Your post didn't provide any evidence that your quotes from anti-Christian Jews were believed by any Jews at the time of Jesus (c. 30 AD). Yet you alleged they were believed by some Jews from "before and during the time of Jesus".

Of all your quotes from anti-Christian Jews, only one of them speaks of an eternity of pain, assuming it is even correctly translated. None of the others refer to "eternal hell". So you are basing your argument on a single Jewish quote. And is this quote merely an interpretation of, or quote, from an apocryphal Jewish writing, Judith, rejected by the Jews from their canon? Was it written at the time of Christ (c. 30 AD) or generations or centuries apart from Christ's time? Your answer is the Judith quote is "according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era". So where is your evidence of a Jewish belief in "eternal hell" at the time of Christ?

I posted:

Your post referenced both Judith and the Book of Enoch. What are those, if not extrabiblical myths, fables or legends which Scripture warns against? Can your alleged interpretations of Scripture by anti-Christian Jews also be considered myths that Jews have created from their own imaginations? Where do the OT Scriptures ever say anything even remotely resembling this: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." What are the original language words rendered "all eternity"? Is "all eternity" a mistranslation?

Der Alter replied:

The book of Enoch and Judith and others not in the Christian canon are considered scripture by the Jews.

There's no Book of Enoch or Judith listed here:
The 24 Books of the Hebrew Bible • Torah.org

Judith an "Apocryphal book".
JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"Thus forms of the Books of Judith, Maccabees and Ben Sira, as well as parts of Wisdom of Solomon were familiar to Jewish scholars. But these works never achieved wide acceptance in Judaism and remained, to a greater or lesser extent, curiosities."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

"The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

"The Book of Enoch...contradicts scripture, lies about biblical cosmology...and perverts God's mercy and plan of salvation" The Book of Enoch Debunked

"Although it was likely written by a Jewish person during the Second Temple Period, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group."

"The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
Sefer Yehudit - AbeBooks

"The content of the books of the Apocrypha is below that of canonical Scripture. Several of the books including Judith, Tobit, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon read like ***LEGENDS***. When one reads these books alongside canonical Scripture the differences become obvious." (emphasis, mine) Why Were the Books of the Old Testament Apocrypha Rejected as Holy Scripture by the Protestants?

Speaking of legends:

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

I posted:

A worm not dying & unquenched fire does not necessarily equate in any sane, sound minded thinking individual (who has not been brainwashed) to "eternal punishment" where people are tortured for all eternity. Don't be ridiculous. Also see this re Mark 9:43-49 which you've never addressed or refuted, though posted to you many times before: Early church opposition to endless hell

If Jesus believed in "eternal punishment", why didn't He use the anti-Christian Jews words you quoted in your post, namely: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." By Jesus' choice to reject using such words, does He - REJECT - that Jewish belief?

Der Alter replied:

Your opinion about worms and unquenched fire is irrelevant. Jesus talked about them and the Jewish sources I quoted talked about them

On this forum are Christians talking about the same things. Does that mean they all believe in an "eternal torture chamber"? Yet that's what your argument amounts to. Lame.

Still trying to dictate which words Jesus and others should or should not have used to satisfy you.

I just used your same method to argue against your conclusion. First you assume Jesus believed in "eternal hell". Then you assume He confirmed a belief in "eternal hell" allegedly believed by an ancient Jewish apocryphal author just because he used some similar but different language as Jesus did. Yet the Jewish author's words, if they were properly translated, clearly affirm "eternal hell", while Jesus' words do not.

What Jesus did say virtually mirrored the words that the Jews.

Why would He leave out the most important part, the part about an eternity of pain, if He was wishing to affirm a Jewish person's belief in an eternity of pain? Clearly He didn't mirror the beliefs of the Pharisees, since He rejected a number of their beliefs, for He warned against the teachings of the Pharisees:

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)." "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9). Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."(Jn.8:44).

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)


---

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[ClementofA]

But here is what Jesus Himself says,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these [on the left] shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Compare:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Clearly the Greek/Hebrew words mistranslated "everlasting", "eternal" & "forever" in pro endless hell biased translations do not always mean what they seem to mean, e.g.:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo.21:6)

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/l
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50

Lame. Nothing there says anyone will suffer endless tortures. Jesus could have easily expressed such a thought, if that was His belief. Since He never does, He doesn't believe such a thing. See also:

Early church opposition to endless hell

• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

"To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23

"never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

"Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." Mark 9 Benson Commentary

Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

Better not to have been born. Not to have never existed.

Jesus said it would have been better if Judas had not been born. He did not say it would have been better if Judas had never been conceived or existed. The latter opposes universalism, the former does not necessarily do so. One who dies in the womb without being born has existed. To not be born & die before being born means that one existed.

It would be better to be (1) concieved (& therefore to exist) & not be born than (2) to be born & live a wicked life (e.g. Judas Iscariot), because the former is in better standing with God than the latter (compare, for example, Lk.12:47-48). Judas will suffer the wrath of God of which the child in utero, who was never born, is not deserving. Therefore, for Judas, it would have been better if he had never been born, but died in his mother's womb. But, though he will suffer the wrath of God, this does not rule out the possibility of his ultimate salvation. Therefore Mt.26:24 fails as a proof text against him being saved.

• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence.

None of those verses refer to a "fate worse than...nonexistence". And a "fate worse than death" need not be endless tortures & is nowhere near being similar to endless tortures. Compare:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

.....Unlike the UR crowd I consider Jesus to be the standard not Paul or John or other NT writers. I interpret the writings of Paul et al. to agree with what Jesus said. On the other hand UR-ites reinterpret the words of Jesus so that they do not mean what they literally say in order to make them agree with the UR interpretation of Paul et al.

All Scripture is inspired of God. Paul is in harmony with what the 4 Gospels & Jesus say about the Lord being the Savior of the world, of all mankind. For Paul's inspired words of truth are from the risen Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"

Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).​

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

 

[Choir Loft]

Let me clarify something you claimed to clarify. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the translators of the 225 bc LXX knew what they were doing when they translated "sheol" and "gehinnom" as "hades." While the Egyptians may or may not have had some concept of "hell" and the Greeks may or may not have borrowed some of those ideas. I do not consider a secular encyclopedia a credible source for interpreting scripture. Here for your consideration three irrefutable Jewish sources which document a belief in some concept of "hell" before, during and after the time of Jesus.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.…..

Apples and oranges, sir. Your twin arguments do not disprove the Biblical position that man is mortal (Genesis 6:3a) and only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16) .

Your post #833 rejects secular references to secular myth - that of Egyptian origins of the idea of an indestructible human spirit. The myth is well documented by every archeological and academic source known. Your objection is noted, but unfounded and argumentative at best.

Neither are complicated references to the Mishnah (*) suitable for interpreting the Holy Bible. If secular records are to be excluded, then so to must references to the Mishnah. Neither are Biblical. Neither are canonical. Both are excluded. You cannot reject one and accept another so as to interpret scripture as you please.

I do agree that secular sources are not sufficient to interpret the Bible. This being agreed upon it should be obvious that these secular sources do serve to explain the origins and development of secular myths popular today. Unfortunately many of these popular myths have been adopted by the church, thus diluting and corrupting the general ideology of the religion.

The Bible is self-interpreting. Disagreements and obfuscation arise when external myth hypotheticals and popular fiction are employed to interpret scripture.

How strange then that you support my contention by admitting the translator(s) of original Hebrew and Greek texts deliberately misTranslated the original scripture. [Highlighted in green in the quoted portion above.]

There is no 'absence of evidence' as you claim - only your suppression of it.

I believe the point I was trying to make in the first place is that the post modern church now wallows in myth, tabloid fiction and political correctness so deeply that the Christian belief system has been almost totally debauched.

Most Christians have sunk into a kind of spiritual quicksand composed of slogans and buzz words.

Hell is one of those words.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The Mishnah is a collection of Jewish traditions originally known as the 'oral Torah'. According to the gospels, Jesus argued against many of these traditions.

 

[Der Alte]

Apples and oranges, sir. Your twin arguments do not disprove the Biblical position that man is mortal (Genesis 6:3a) and only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16) .

Although I addressed this once before you continue to holler your unsupported opinion. Gen 6:3a says nothing about "mortal." But "mortal" seems to support your assumptions and presuppositions so you continue to holler that.

Your post #833 rejects secular references to secular myth - that of Egyptian origins of the idea of an indestructible human spirit. The myth is well documented by every archeological and academic source known. Your objection is noted, but unfounded and argumentative at best.

None of this irrelevant hollering proves that the Jews or Christians copied any Egyptian or Greek myths. Your opinion about my arguments are equally irrelevant. Anybody can say "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"

Neither are complicated references to the Mishnah (*) suitable for interpreting the Holy Bible. If secular records are to be excluded, then so to must references to the Mishnah. Neither are Biblical. Neither are canonical. Both are excluded. You cannot reject one and accept another so as to interpret scripture as you please.

I have found it useful to actually read a post before trying to reply. I did not quote the mishnah to interpret the Bible.

I do agree that secular sources are not sufficient to interpret the Bible. This being agreed upon it should be obvious that these secular sources do serve to explain the origins and development of secular myths popular today. Unfortunately many of these popular myths have been adopted by the church, thus diluting and corrupting the general ideology of the religion.
The Bible is self-interpreting. Disagreements and obfuscation arise when external myth hypotheticals and popular fiction are employed to interpret scripture..

The biggest self contradictions I have seen lately. You reject the sources I quoted, i.e. the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud and make some vague reference to "secular" and "popular myths" While you you keep hollering about Egyptian and Greek myths and have provided no, zero, none evidence to support your claims

The Bible is self-interpreting. Disagreements and obfuscation arise when external myth hypotheticals and popular fiction are employed to interpret scripture.

Meaningless references to "external myth hypotheticals and popular fiction are employed to interpret scripture." No, zero, none evidence.

How strange then that you support my contention by admitting the translator(s) of original Hebrew and Greek texts deliberately misTranslated the original scripture. [Highlighted in green in the quoted portion above.]
There is no 'absence of evidence' as you claim - only your suppression of it.

Nonsense, I don't support your contention. I suppressed nothing, I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any of your claims. Quoting from anonymous websites does not constitute such evidence.

I believe the point I was trying to make in the first place is that the post modern church now wallows in myth, tabloid fiction and political correctness so deeply that the Christian belief system has been almost totally debauched.

If this is what you believe you'd better read the rules, I think you are in the wrong forum.

Most Christians have sunk into a kind of spiritual quicksand composed of slogans and buzz words.
Hell is one of those words.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

More of the same empty hollering.
[/quote]

(*) The Mishnah is a collection of Jewish traditions originally known as the 'oral Torah'. According to the gospels, Jesus argued against many of these traditions.

Part of the reference to Talmud in the Jewish Encyclopedia. Thus rendering your opinion irrelevant.

Talmud
Name of two works which have been preserved to posterity as the product of the Palestinian and Babylonian schools during the amoraic period, which extended from the third to the fifth century C.E. One of these compilations is entitled "Talmud Yerushalmi" (Jerusalem Talmud) and the other "Talmud Babli" (Babylonian Talmud). Used alone, the word "Talmud" generally denotes "Talmud Babli," but it frequently serves as a generic designation for an entire body of literature, since the Talmud marks the culmination of the writings of Jewish tradition, of which it is, from a historical point of view, the most important production.
Its Authority.
After the completion of the Talmud as a work of literature, it exercised a twofold influence as a historical factor in the history of Judaism and its followers, not only in regard to the guidance and formulation of religious life and thought, but also with respect to the awakening and development of intellectual activity. As a document of religion the Talmud acquired that authority which was due to it as the written embodiment of the ancient tradition, and it fulfilled the task which the men of the Great Assembly set for the representatives of the tradition when they said, "Make a hedge for the Torah" (Ab. i. 2)....
The Talmud has not yet entirely lost its twofold importance as a historical factor within Judaism, despite the changes which have taken place during the last century. For the majority of Jews it is still the supreme authority in religion; and, as noted above, although it is rarely an object of study on the part of those who have assimilated modern culture, it is still a subject of investigation for Jewish learning, as a product of Judaism which yet exerts an influence second in importance only to the Bible.
TALMUD - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

 

[Choir Loft]

By hell you are referring to the 2nd DEATH correct?

When God judges man by the law it produces a cross that is why the law is a ministration of DEATH and our schoolmaster that leads to CHRIST.

While our old man is being destroyed we weep and wail and gnash our teeth. It is not pleasant but the destruction of the old man must occur for CHRIST to come to the fore.

Thus Paul said it is no longer I that live but CHRIST that liveth in me, yet I live.

I can't speak for clement MM, but I do know that I have a different understanding in many areas from my brothers and sister who believe as I do in the salvation of all. However what we all agree on is the final outcome, Jesus Christ IS the saviour of ALL MEN.

THE FOLLOWING IS AN ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN AND DEFINE THE DEBATE.....

The present argument is about the definition of human afterlife as presented in the Bible
vs.
assertions based upon extra-Biblical references in non-canonical religious tradition & secular myth.

The Second Death, also called the Lake of Fire, is not the same thing as Hell.

According to the Bible, the Second Death is the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:11). It's also referred to by Jesus as gehenna(1) in translations that are true to the original Hebrew Aramaic & Greek. Translations that use the word hell have been influenced by Greek & Roman myth adopted from the ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead. A certain amount of secular seepage has crept into Christian ideology and has affected it negatively. Secular ideology bows to Greco-Roman mythology as well as the Hindu Book of the Dead - the Sraddha/reincarnation (Hebrews 9:27)

Hell is not the same as the Lake of Fire/2nd Death.

According to secular myth, hell is a place of eternal torment created by a divine vindictive sociopath. The myth states that the wicked are tormented in the bowels of the earth eternally without hope of remediation or renewal (as in Dante's Divine Comedy section titled 'Inferno'.)

The Bible teaches that humanity is mortal. There is no eternal component of a human being that survives death forever. (Luke 9:60; Romans 6:23; John 3:16)

Which part of 'dead' is not understood here?
Must every simple word in the Bible be corrupted to support doctrines of demons?
If certain persons do not understand the meaning of 'death', then a trip to the local cemetery may provide an educational experience.

The Bible teaches only God is immortal.(1 Timothy 6:16)
Which part of 'only' is not understood?

The glory of the gospel is that God has chosen to grant a portion of His eternal life to those who surrender to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. ONLY the justified are granted eternal life. The wicked are not rewarded with that which is reserved for the elect. The wicked suffer the 2nd death - spiritual death as well as physical death.

The Bible is consistent in both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant with this teaching.

Those that prefer to harbor ill will toward their fellow man, as well as Biblical truth, continually refer to documentation outside the Bible to prove their position.

It is my position the Holy Bible is self-interpreting. Explanations for its assertions can be found within its own pages if only the disciple will take the time to investigate therein.

It is my position that secular sources, such as history, may be used to explain secular myth. Secular sources, including non-canonical religious documents similar to the Mishnah(2), may never be used to interpret the Bible. Attempts to do so only muddy the issue, dilute scripture's original intent and further the agenda of the Opposer. For instance, some passages in non-canonical Jewish literature suggest Mermaids assisted in one of the Mosaic plagues of Egypt. Mermaids opened the doors of Egypt to allow frogs to enter human dwellings.

Some people refuse to let go of hate and use secular myth to justify their inner perversions to torture and abuse their fellow human beings. For instance, certain passages in the Jewish Babylonian Talmud state its perfectly acceptable to lie to gentiles so as to gain an advantage in a financial transaction. The Bible clearly states the ways of God are not the ways of man.

God kills because he has to, not because He enjoys it (unlike some humans who take pleasure in it).

God does not torture endlessly (some humans would no doubt enjoy watching the horror and would even take photos of it if such were possible).

Personally speaking, the idea of eternal torture sickens me.

I would not wish it on a mad dog.

If the Second Death, a merciful end to sin, is good enough for Jesus - it's good enough for me.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Jesus' references to gehenna are to an actual geographic location to the south and east of Jerusalem.
(Matthew 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33;
Mark 9:43, 45, 47;
Luke 12:5)
Originally used as a place to sacrifice children to the pagan god Molech, the valley of Hinnom came to be used as a waste dump by the 1st century. Waste dumps are fetid toxic places always burning and always crawling with worms and bugs and birds dining on the excrement of civilization. Gehenna was no exception.

The fires and worms of gehenna continually feasted and consumed because there was a continuous source of garbage thrown into it. Jesus' reference to eternal flames did not suggest the trash continued forever, only the fires and worms that consumed it lasted from day to day and year to year.

Fire consumes and destroys. Fire may continue to burn, but that which is tossed into it is obliterated. Of such is the nature of the Second Death, the Lake of Fire, according to the Bible - according to Jesus.

Death is THE END.

(2) The Mishnah is also referred to as the second Torah or oral Torah. The written Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible - accepted as cannon, the legitimate Word of God, by Jews and Christians alike.

The Mishnah also provided the basis for composition of the Babylonian Talmud and Jewish religious traditions that Jesus vehemently opposed in his preaching and witness. Together, these documents provide the foundation for Jewish writing and theology into the present age. They are not accepted as cannon by Christians and are even argued and opposed by Jewish scholars - continually.

 

[Der Alte]

I posted:
Where does any OT Scripture say "hell shall pass away"? Where does any OT Scripture say "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them"? Where does any OT Scripture say "heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews"? Those are all quotes by anti-Christian Jews from your post. Where does any OT Scripture support such opinions from anti-Christian Jewish sources?
Der Alter replied:
The answer to that is another topic (already addressed elsewhere) than your post with quotes from anti-Christian Jews. You also posted some Scripture verses & then concluded Jesus' "teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell". You reach this conclusion because some of Jesus' words bear some similarity to what the Jewish quotes say, even though they are still quite different and don't arrive at the same conclusion of "eternal hell" which Jesus rejected. If Jesus meant to affirm a belief in "eternal hell" in an anti-Christian Jewish writing, why didn't He use the exact words? Or did He mean to reject their teaching by rejecting the language they used which affirms "eternal hell"?
Yet you have provided no evidence that the particular Jews Jesus was speaking to in any specific Scripture context held to such a belief at the time Christ spoke to them c. 30 AD. In fact you stated that there were a variety of beliefs among the Jews about the afterlife. So which of the various beliefs was Jesus supposedly affirming or rejecting? How would you know unless you compare some of the other Jewish views? Did they also use some phrases that were similar to Jesus' statements? If so, then how do you know which of the various Jewish views Jesus was rejecting or affirming?
I did read it. Your post didn't provide any evidence that your quotes from anti-Christian Jews were believed by any Jews at the time of Jesus (c. 30 AD). Yet you alleged they were believed by some Jews from "before and during the time of Jesus".
Of all your quotes from anti-Christian Jews, only one of them speaks of an eternity of pain, assuming it is even correctly translated. None of the others refer to "eternal hell". So you are basing your argument on a single Jewish quote. And is this quote merely an interpretation of, or quote, from an apocryphal Jewish writing, Judith, rejected by the Jews from their canon? Was it written at the time of Christ (c. 30 AD) or generations or centuries apart from Christ's time? Your answer is the Judith quote is "according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era". So where is your evidence of a Jewish belief in "eternal hell" at the time of Christ?
I posted:
Your post referenced both Judith and the Book of Enoch. What are those, if not extrabiblical myths, fables or legends which Scripture warns against? Can your alleged interpretations of Scripture by anti-Christian Jews also be considered myths that Jews have created from their own imaginations? Where do the OT Scriptures ever say anything even remotely resembling this: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." What are the original language words rendered "all eternity"? Is "all eternity" a mistranslation?
Der Alter replied:
There's no Book of Enoch or Judith listed here:
Judith an "Apocryphal book"
"Thus forms of the Books of Judith, Maccabees and Ben Sira, as well as parts of Wisdom of Solomon were familiar to Jewish scholars. But these works never achieved wide acceptance in Judaism and remained, to a greater or lesser extent, curiosities."
"The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch."
"The Book of Enoch...contradicts scripture, lies about biblical cosmology...and perverts God's mercy and plan of salvation"
"Although it was likely written by a Jewish person during the Second Temple Period, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group."
"The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
"The content of the books of the Apocrypha is below that of canonical Scripture. Several of the books including Judith, Tobit, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon read like ***LEGENDS***. When one reads these books alongside canonical Scripture the differences become obvious." (emphasis, mine)
Speaking of legends:
2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)
I posted:
A worm not dying & unquenched fire does not necessarily equate in any sane, sound minded thinking individual (who has not been brainwashed) to "eternal punishment" where people are tortured for all eternity. Don't be ridiculous. Also see this re Mark 9:43-49 which you've never addressed or refuted, though posted to you many times before:
If Jesus believed in "eternal punishment", why didn't He use the anti-Christian Jews words you quoted in your post, namely: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." By Jesus' choice to reject using such words, does He - REJECT - that Jewish belief?
Der Alter replied:in this forum are Christians talking about the same things. Does that mean they all believe in an "eternal torture chamber"? Yet that's what your argument amounts to. Lame.
I just used your same method to argue against your conclusion. First you assume Jesus believed in "eternal hell". Then you assume He confirmed a belief in "eternal hell" allegedly believed by an ancient Jewish apocryphal author just because he used some similar but different language as Jesus did. Yet the Jewish author's words, if they were properly translated, clearly affirm "eternal hell", while Jesus' words do not.
Why would He leave out the most important part, the part about an eternity of pain, if He was wishing to affirm a Jewish person's belief in an eternity of pain? Clearly He didn't mirror the beliefs of the Pharisees, since He rejected a number of their beliefs, for He warned against the teachings of the Pharisees:
"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducee's,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)." "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9). Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."(Jn.8:44).
2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

All irrelevant! Do you not realize how absurd and ridiculous this entire same old, same old argument is?
.....The Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] was published more than 100 years ago. The JE had an editorial staff of 40+ rabbis and scholars and 400+ rabbis and scholars contributors. I previously posted two reviews of the JE which showed how highly regarded the JE is among Jews and Jewish scholars.
.....Unless someone has considerable expertise in Hebrew and Greek and Bible and Jewish history, that means post graduate degree(s), they do not have the knowledge or understanding necessary to criticize the JE. Having said all that I will ignore any future criticisms of the JE by you.