LDS Joseph Smith was a Modalist

[Peter1000]

I would not say that it "takes my breath away", Peter, to see similarity in a painting of Stephen's vision and a painting of JS's vision.

Biblically, an issue is WHY WAS JESUS STANDING?

Many passages say Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, others that He is simply "at the right hand of God", and one explanation is that Jesus stood at the occasion of Stephen's death to honor His first martyr.

IN any case, the two paintings are artist's conceptions. The one of JS's vision shows the Father and Son to look exactly alike, being ostensibly the same age; really the Stephen vision shows basically the same thing

If you were to tell the story of JS seeing the Father and the Son, and then tell the story of Stephen's vision of the Father and the Son, and then tell your audience to draw a picture of the 2 stories, they would draw a man on the ground and 2 glorious being in the air standing side by side.

This is exactly how I would think the Father and the Son would be if they visited me, and I would be filled with the 3rd member of the Godhead, the Holy Ghost. Great pictures.

 

[Anto9us]

2 glorious beings in the air standing side by side.

That is how both paintings have depicted things.

However, it might be possible that in Stephen's case -- the Father was seen seated on His throne, with the Son standing at His right hand.

Also, be aware that for Mormons it may be no problem that the Father literally has a "hand" -- but for non-Mormons, the references to God's HAND, MOUTH, NOSTRILS; etc. -- are seen to be figurative; anthropomorphisms attributed to a purely SPIRITUAL Father...

Yes, they are 'great pictures' -- with the caveats I am bringing up -- Mormons, believing that the Father has a flesh and bone body, would not be subject to reservations that

"no man has seen God at any time";

that Moses only saw His 'back parts' for

"no man sees my face and lives"...

"The mouth of The Lord hath spoken it"

"Yahweh hath bared His holy arm"

Exo 15:8
And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

 

[Anto9us]

Act 7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Act 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Stephen saw THE GLORY of God, and Jesus standing on the right HAND of God.

I would say that majority on CF do not consider the Father to LITERALLY have a flesh-and-bone HAND

 

[Anto9us]

Luk 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This is Jesus in His GLORIFIED body; no longer flesh and BLOOD (which cannot inherit the kingdom); but flesh and bone

 

[Rescued One]

Act 7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Act 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Stephen saw THE GLORY of God, and Jesus standing on the right HAND of God.

I would say that majority on CF do not consider the Father to LITERALLY have a flesh-and-bone HAND

And "to stand on one's right hand" indicates a place of honor.

 

[Anto9us]

And "to stand on one's right hand" indicates a place of honor.

Exactly.

 

[drstevej]

And "to stand on one's right hand" indicates a place of honor.

And it means the other person is either left handed or ambidextrous.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Look what Stephen, the first century martyr sees.
Exactly the same as JS. What do you think?

View attachment 243643

The image above is canonically errant, as God the Father is not to be depicted in images, a principle set down at the 2nd Council of Nicea in 787 AD. That hasn't stopped the occasional depiction of the Father in iconography and art, especially in the West, but it still bears mentioning that depictions of the Father are improper.

Further, here is what the text in the Acts of the Apostles says:

"But filled with the Holy Spirit, he gazed into the heavens and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 'Look,' he said, 'I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!' But they covered their ears, and with a loud shout rushed together against him. Then they dragged him out of the city and began to stone him; and the witnesses laid their coats of a young man named Saul. While they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' Then he knelt down and cried out in a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them.' When he had said this, he died." - Acts 7:54-60

Note what the text says Stephen saw, he witnessed God's glory and saw Jesus at the right hand of God the Father. It does not say that Stephen saw God the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[notreligus]

I am sixty-six years young. I know about modalism too. T.D. Jakes has been characterized as a modalist.

What I have found out to be true about studying various cults, sects, and denominations is that different sources provide different "facts." I grew up in a Restoration Movement church - the Mormons were a product of the original Restoration Movement with Sidney Rigdon joining with Joseph Smith and Rigdon's followers coming along - and I once told another Restoration Movement church member that Alexander Campbell was a slave owner. In fact students at Betheny College, founded by Alexander Campbell, nearly burnt the campus to the ground after they learned that Campbell had been a slave owner. I told this to another Restoration Movement member, one older than me, and he insisted that I was a liar, no matter what I used as my sources for this information. We can split hairs but I am certain that Mormons teach that Jesus and Lucifer are created beings. I have studied this too. Even some "traditional" Christians teach that Jesus was created, seemingly without understanding that's what they're doing, and do so by denying the preexistence of the Son.

 

[Solomon Smith]

No Joseph Smith was not a modalist he believed that the Father and the Son were two distinct beings and actually separate Gods.

 

[Peter1000]

Luk 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This is Jesus in His GLORIFIED body; no longer flesh and BLOOD (which cannot inherit the kingdom); but flesh and bone

You are right.

 

[Peter1000]

No Joseph Smith was not a modalist he believed that the Father and the Son were two distinct beings and actually separate Gods.

You are right, if anything comes close to modalism it is the Trinity doctrine.

 

[Peter1000]

The image above is canonically errant, as God the Father is not to be depicted in images, a principle set down at the 2nd Council of Nicea in 787 AD. That hasn't stopped the occasional depiction of the Father in iconography and art, especially in the West, but it still bears mentioning that depictions of the Father are improper.

Further, here is what the text in the Acts of the Apostles says:

"But filled with the Holy Spirit, he gazed into the heavens and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 'Look,' he said, 'I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!' But they covered their ears, and with a loud shout rushed together against him. Then they dragged him out of the city and began to stone him; and the witnesses laid their coats of a young man named Saul. While they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' Then he knelt down and cried out in a loud voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin against them.' When he had said this, he died." - Acts 7:54-60

Note what the text says Stephen saw, he witnessed God's glory and saw Jesus at the right hand of God the Father. It does not say that Stephen saw God the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

You can squirm around the text and give us your opinion, but if you had 10,000 people draw a picture of what Stephen saw in the heavens it would look like the picture we are talking about.

So mutilate all you want, but it does not matter, Stephen saw Jesus Christ standing on the right hand of the Father, just like the picture depicts, and of course it would be powerful and glorious.

 

[Peter1000]

And it means the other person is either left handed or ambidextrous.

For you, I would expect that to be important. Thanks for the info.

 

[Solomon Smith]

You are right, if anything comes close to modalism it is the Trinity doctrine.

No, the doctrine of the Trinity is not modalism.

The Trinity states that there are 3 eternally existent beings. Modalism states that the Father in time became each one of those beings.

 

[Peter1000]

Luk 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This is Jesus in His GLORIFIED body; no longer flesh and BLOOD (which cannot inherit the kingdom); but flesh and bone

You are right, and if Jesus has a body of flesh and bone, and he is the exact express image of his God and his Father, would mean that God the Father, being (in reverse) the express image of the Son, would have a body of flesh and bone just like the Son.

Think about this: If we are made in the image and likeness of God in Genesis 1:26, and if God was only a spirit, we would be only a spirit. But we are not just spirit, but we are flesh and bone and spirit. So since we are flesh and bone and spirit (in reverse) God, whom we are made in the image of, must also have a body of flesh and bone and spirit. That would also answer many odd questions in the bible about the nature of God and His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Solomon Smith]

standing on the right hand of the Father

And what exactly does that mean?

 

[Peter1000]

No, the doctrine of the Trinity is not modalism.

The Trinity states that there are 3 eternally existent beings. Modalism states that the Father in time became each one of those beings.

I understand that, but if the Father and Son and HS are in 1 God, and Jesus is talking to a crowd on the Mt. of the beatitudes, what is God doing? Is His person somehow behind the face of Jesus, whose face is forward speaking to the crowd?

You see, that is what modalism is. The Father and the Son and the HS are in 1 God and are all the same God, with different masks that are used to depict the Person who is speaking at the time.

In fact the would hoomoisia was used by the modalists to describe how their god lived. When the Nicean Fathers tried to describe the relationship of the Trinity Persons, they finally decided to use hoomoisia, and a lot of the bishops at Nicean objected vehemnently because 150 years before they condemned modalism and the hoomoisia concept as heretical, and now 150 in the future were using it to describe God again. The Trinity passed, only because Constantine had an army and would have killed every bishop if they had not come to a consensus of this important relationship between the Father and the Son and the HS, so the kingdom could move forward more united. So they gave up on true doctrine for true unity.

Modalism and Trinity are very closely associated by the word hoomoisia (could be spelling this wrong).

 

[Peter1000]

And what exactly does that mean?

I know it is difficult to envision "on the right hand of the Father" when you think of the Father without body, parts, or passions, or just an invisible spiritual entity of some sort.

But if you envision both the Father and the Son as flesh and bone Persons, then one standing on the right hand of the other is just the same as if you are standing on the right hand side of your friend.

 

[Solomon Smith]

I know it is difficult to envision "on the right hand of the Father" when you think of the Father without body, parts, or passions, or just an invisible spiritual entity of some sort.

But if you envision both the Father and the Son as flesh and bone Persons, then one standing on the right hand of the other is just the same as if you are standing on the right hand side of your friend.

God is a Spirit. He has no physical right hand as he has no physical body.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.