If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[Light of the East]

But the Fearful, and Unbelieving, and The Abominable, and Murderers, and Whoremongers, and Sorcerers, and Idolaters, and All liars, Shall Have Their Part In The Lake Which Burneth With Fire And Brimstone: which is the second death.
• Revelation 21:8



And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If Any Man Worship The Beast And His Image, And Receive His Mark In His Forehead, Or In His Hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; And He Shall Be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels, And In The Presence Of The Lamb: And the smoke of Their Torment Ascendeth up For Ever and Ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
• Revelation 14:9-11

Nice. But you didn't answer my question. Based on the biblical (and therefore God-given) concept of lex talionis justice, which is that the punishment fits the crime. So I ask again, what sin could be worth an eternity in torment?

 

[Light of the East]

But, I am also aware of catholic traditions that don't jive with Scripture. And, so did were those who started the protestant movement.

All I can tell you is that God chose to wake me up. He didn't wake me up because of the church I attended, nor through any other church. He woke me up through His Scriptures. That is why I am open to challenging any beliefs. But, I don't trust tradition that changes over time, as different people are in charge. And, barring God leading me there, I won't.

Well, yes, the Roman Catholic Church has added traditions which were not known by the Early Church. That is why I am not dogmatically Roman Catholic, but rather Orthodox in my theology. You cannot say that about the Orthodox Church, whatever problems they may have.

 

[Light of the East]

<LotE>I think a good question to ask is this: Why did the first fifteen centuries of Christians believe that the Eucharist is truly the very Body and Blood of Christ without any exception? The idea of a "bare memorial meal" really didn't start until the 16th century.
When I was confronted with this as a Protestant by reading the writings of the Early Fathers, I suddenly realized that I hadn't been given "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," but rather someone's interpretation and opinion which didn't jive with the teaching of the Early Church.<end>
I searched my copy of the early church fathers from Clement A.D. 30-100 to Origen c. 184 – c. 253,but the only reference to this topic I could find is this one from Tertullian.

Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] II. The Five Books Against Marcion. Book IV
Chap. XL
When He so earnestly expressed His desire to eat the passover, He considered it His own feast; for it would have been unworthy of God to desire to partake of what was not His own. Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, “This is my body, that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body. ​

Like all people who don't wish to be taken out of their comfort zone, you didn't look very hard at all.

St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 A.D.)
I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, WHICH IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I DESIRE HIS BLOOD, which is love incorruptible. (Letter to the Romans 7:3)

Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: FOR THERE IS ONE FLESH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and one cup IN THE UNION OF HIS BLOOD; one ALTAR, as there is one bishop with the presbytery… (Letter to the Philadelphians 4:1)

St. Justin the Martyr (c. 100 - 165 A.D.)
We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [Baptism], and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined.

For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, AND BY THE CHANGE OF WHICH our blood and flesh is nourished, IS BOTH THE FLESH AND THE BLOOD OF THAT INCARNATED JESUS. (First Apology, 66)

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachi [1:10-12]…It is of the SACRIFICES OFFERED TO HIM IN EVERY PLACE BY US, the Gentiles, that is, OF THE BREAD OF THE EUCHARIST AND LIKEWISE OF THE CUP OF THE EUCHARIST, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it. (Dialogue with Trypho, 41)

They [i.e. the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrnians 7:1)

Origen (c. 185 - 254 A.D.)
We give thanks to the Creator of all, and, along with thanksgiving and prayer for the blessings we have received, we also eat the bread presented to us; and this bread BECOMES BY PRAYER A SACRED BODY, which sanctifies those who sincerely partake of it.(Against Celsus 8:33)

You see how the ALTARS are no longer sprinkled with the blood of oxen, but consecrated BY THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST. (Homilies on Joshua 2:1)

But if that text (Lev 24:5-9) is taken to refer to the greatness of what is mystically symbolized, then there is a 'commemoration' which has an EFFECT OF GREAT PROPITIATORY VALUE. If you apply it to that 'Bread which came down from heaven and gives life to the world,' that shewbread which 'God has offered to us as a means of reconciliation, in virtue of faith, ransoming us with his blood,' and if you look to that commemoration of which the Lord says, 'Do this in commemoration of me,' then you will find that this is the unique commemoration WHICH MAKES GOD PROPITIOUS TO MEN. (Homilies on Leviticus 9)

You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received THE BODY OF THE LORD, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall, and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish….how is it that you think neglecting the word of God a lesser crime than neglecting HIS BODY? (Homilies on Exodus 13:3)

…now, however, in full view, there is the true food, THE FLESH OF THE WORD OF GOD, as He Himself says: "MY FLESH IS TRULY FOOD, AND MY BLOOD IS TRULY DRINK." (Homilies on Numbers 7:2)

​

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Nice. But you didn't answer my question. Based on the biblical (and therefore God-given) concept of lex talionis justice, which is that the punishment fits the crime. So I ask again, what sin could be worth an eternity in torment?

The red highlighted parts are the answer.

 

[Light of the East]

The red highlighted parts are the answer.

No, they aren't.

You list sins. Are you honestly saying that sins done in a short period of time, and some of which did not even involve the shedding of innocent blood, deserve a never-ending eternity in pain, torture, and suffering?

In order to have an eternal punishment, based on lex talionis punishment, someone would have to commit a sin that was also eternal. None of those done in chronological time qualifies.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

No, they aren't.

You list sins. Are you honestly saying that sins done in a short period of time, and some of which did not even involve the shedding of innocent blood, deserve a never-ending eternity in pain, torture, and suffering?

In order to have an eternal punishment, based on lex talionis punishment, someone would have to commit a sin that was also eternal. None of those done in chronological time qualifies.

The people who have there part in the lake of fire are apart of those in the list who are unrepentant in Revelation 21:8.

The people who take the mark and worship the beast are the people who are tormented in the lake of fire Forever and Ever in Revelation 14:9-11.

 

[Light of the East]

The people who have there part in the lake of fire are apart of those in the list who are unrepentant in Revelation 21:8.

The people who take the mark and worship the beast are the people who are tormented in the lake of fire Forever and Ever in Revelation 14:9-11.

You are just not getting it. To consign to never-ending torment for sins committed in chronological time, i.e., sins that come to an end, is the same a draw and quartering a living child for stealing a candy bar.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

You are just not getting it. To consign to never-ending torment for sins committed in chronological time, i.e., sins that come to an end, is the same a draw and quartering a living child for stealing a candy bar.

I showed you the answer. You just don't like the answer.

Human opinions don't override The Scriptures.

 

[ClementofA]

But the Fearful, and Unbelieving, and The Abominable, and Murderers, and Whoremongers, and Sorcerers, and Idolaters, and All liars, Shall Have Their Part In The Lake Which Burneth With Fire And Brimstone: which is the second death.
• Revelation 21:8



And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If Any Man Worship The Beast And His Image, And Receive His Mark In His Forehead, Or In His Hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; And He Shall Be Tormented With Fire And Brimstone In The Presence Of The Holy Angels, And In The Presence Of The Lamb: And the smoke of Their Torment Ascendeth up For Ever and Ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
• Revelation 14:9-11

There's no endless tortures for anyone there or anywhere else in the Scriptures, properly translated without an Endless Tormenter bias. More honest accurate and literal translations are like this:

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name."

Darby Bible Translation
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

Weymouth New Testament
And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Greek-English Interlinear says "ages of ages" here:

Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

The translators biased to the endless hell dogma rendered terms (olam, aion, aionios, etc) that can & do - often - refer to finite durations as "eternal", "forever" & the like in contexts referring to eschatological punishment. Thus, they rendered them according to their theological position. What they should have done is translated them as theologically neutral terms, e.g. eon, eonian, which can refer either to a finite or endless period of time. And left the interpreting up to the readers whether or not, in any given context, the words "eon" & "eonian" refer to a finite or endless "eon" or "eonian" duration. But, instead they injected their opinion, their interpretation, of terms (such as olam, aion & aionion) into the text. Thus you don't have a faithful translation of these words with most English translations, but rather an interpretation, a paraphrase, a theologically driven opinion.

The fair way to translate (olam, aion, aionion, etc) is to use an English word (e.g. eon, eonian) that covers the range of meanings for that term & leave the interpreting up to the readers. Rather than inject one's theological biases into Scripture's ancient language words that have multiple or ambiguous meanings. If an appropriate English word is not available, then there is the option of using the ancient language word, i.e. not translating it, as some versions have done, e.g. using aionion. Or just transliterate it into English, e.g. eonian (or alternately aeonian, agian, etc.).

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

There's no endless tortures for anyone there or anywhere else in the Scriptures, properly translated without an Endless Tormenter bias. More honest accurate and literal translations are like this:

Berean Literal Bible
And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name."

You conveniently left out the part about them being Tormented:

Berean Literal Bible

And another, a third angel, followed them, saying in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath; and he will be Tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages; and those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest day and night, and if anyone receives the mark of its name.”
• Revelation 14:9-11



I'm not the one who wrote it. I'm just showing you what it says.

 

[ClementofA]

You conveniently left out the part about them being Tormented:

Actually i posted 5 different translations of Rv.14:11 that use the word "torment".

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Universalism is Not in the Bible

 

[Der Alte]

Nice. But you didn't answer my question. Based on the biblical (and therefore God-given) concept of lex talionis justice, which is that the punishment fits the crime. So I ask again, what sin could be worth an eternity in torment?

Did the flood and destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah meet your concept of lex talionis justice, when God killed men, and women and children and infants being destroyed for the sins of their parents?

 

[Light of the East]

Did the flood and destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah meet your concept of lex talionis justice, when God killed men, and women and children and infants being destroyed for the sins of their parents?

You miss the point I made. That was still a finite punishment. Eternal conscious torment simply never ends. If a human being did this to another human being - torture without relenting, end, or even purpose - we would call that person a sociopath.

 

[Der Alte]

You miss the point I made. That was still a finite punishment. Eternal conscious torment simply never ends. If a human being did this to another human being - torture without relenting, end, or even purpose - we would call that person a sociopath.

I missed nothing. You deflected my question. What would you call a person who went into a city and killed all the inhabitants men, women, children, infants and killed them all? Sociopath.
.....Fortunately, or unfortunately, as the case may be, God's justice is not affected by the whims and sensibilities of errant, finite humanity.

 

[Doug Melven]

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Read the context of that verse.
Verse 18 of that chapter says the wrath of God is revealed.
Those who reject Christ are deluding themselves into thinking they won't suffer for there rejection of Him.

 

[Shempster]

A very spirited thread, indeed.
I feel like going back to the original question asked by the OP: if eternal torment is real, is God a monster? There seem to be two positions here. One side believes God will torture people forever and the other side doesn't. Maybe instead of focusing on specific bible verses that fit our paradigm, we should focus on the actual OP question... would unending, eternal torture be valid in any circumstance?

 

[ClementofA]

What would you call a person who went into a city and killed all the inhabitants men, women, children, infants and killed them all? Sociopath.

In the OT is at least one example where God commanded some Israelites to attack a group of people & kill them all, children included. God did not call those He told to kill "sociopaths". Did the children who were killed go straight to heaven forever with no possibility of ever going to a (make belief) endless hell? Then wouldn't they be the lucky winners of God's salvation by luck lottery? And wouldn't salvation be a matter of luck? Just like in Calvinistic Double Predestination?

.....Fortunately, or unfortunately, as the case may be, God's justice is not affected by the whims and sensibilities of errant, finite humanity.

That remark fails to address the logical arguments in the OP. This thread has demonstrated that those who advocate a God who tortures billions for eternity can find no logical justification for why Love Omnipotent would allow such an unbelievably monstrous thing to occur.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[ClementofA]

You miss the point I made. That was still a finite punishment. Eternal conscious torment simply never ends. If a human being did this to another human being - torture without relenting, end, or even purpose - we would call that person a sociopath.

There is an infinite difference between a God who will torture a being for infinite eons and a God who won't. Even a trillion years of tortures is less than a drop in the ocean compared to eternity. The infinite torturer is infinitely more monstrous than the temporary torturer. So the infinite torturer is infinitely more monstrous than those tortures caused by Satan, Hitler & Stalin combined.

 

[Berl]

I showed you the answer. You just don't like the answer.

Human opinions don't override The Scriptures.

A very spirited thread, indeed.
I feel like going back to the original question asked by the OP: if eternal torment is real, is God a monster? There seem to be two positions here. One side believes God will torture people forever and the other side doesn't. Maybe instead of focusing on specific bible verses that fit our paradigm, we should focus on the actual OP question... would unending, eternal torture be valid in any circumstance?

The mortal stage of infant consciousness is bombarded with the emotional programming, what scares one makes another laugh, vulgar behavior while another knows no shame, so on and so on, The limitations of mortal consciousness under hypnotic simulation is unqualified to give an inclusive enough opinion, if we were qualified we wouldn't be in this mortal class where judgement keeps us busy till we stop Romans 2:1, humanities favorite dead letter pastime.

 

[Der Alte]

In the OT is at least one example where God commanded some Israelites to attack a group of people & kill them all, children included. God did not call those He told to kill "sociopaths". Did the children who were killed go straight to heaven forever with no possibility of ever going to a (make belief) endless hell? Then wouldn't they be the lucky winners of God's salvation by luck lottery? And wouldn't salvation be a matter of luck? Just like in Calvinistic Double Predestination?

Is this supposed to make some kind of sense? About the children Romans 4:15 and Romans 5:13

That remark fails to address the logical arguments in the OP. This thread has demonstrated that those who advocate a God who tortures billions for eternity can find no logical justification for why Love Omnipotent would allow such an unbelievably monstrous thing to occur.

Sorry don't know any "Love Ominpotent." Would "Love Omnipotent" destroy the inhabitants of the world men, women, children, infants by a flood?