2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Hi FreeGrace2,

Telling me the correct interpretation is not correction. Sharing your perspective and why you hold it is.

Are we now determining what Scripture says from one's perspective? Are you listening to what you are saying??

Scripture is of NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, says Peter in 2 Pet 1:20 - Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.

So if no Scripture comes from a prophet's OWN interpretation, then we can be sure that it also doesn't come from anyone else's interpretation.

And I didn't give you my "interpretation". I showed what Jesus actually said, which is so clear about eternal security in john 10:28, that it doesn't require highly educated scholars to examine, and study and "try" to figure out what He meant.

I can then consider and agree to disagree or grow in my understanding.

OK, so you're just adding up more verses to disagree with, huh?

Do you know who our teacher is?
The Christ. The Holy Spirit also has the ministry of leading us into truth

Then WHY in heaven's name would anyone who claims to be a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ NOT agree with what He has said about recipients of eternal life?

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 14:26

Why aren't you listening to Him?

So if you hold yourself up as the teacher who is the authority to which we should just submit, you have already become a false-teacher.

Which I've NOT done.

I've shown you EXACTLY what Jesus said, which is so clear that everyone can understand.

I have come across the idea before that humans are the source of objective truth, and it has always led to heresy.

I agree with you that this would be nuts. Humans are NOT the source of objective truth. Only God is. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

And we are supposed to BELIEVE what God says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John 10:28 is not a lie because if someone doesn’t follow they are not His sheep.

OK, let's just unpack this.

First, I never said John 10:28 was a lie. I DID say that IF any believer can perish, THEN the verse is a lie. Do you not see the difference?

Second, you have STILL NOT shown that there are any words in v.27 that constitute a condition to be met in order to BECOME a sheep of Jesus.

Again, until you can discern between a statement of description from a conditional statement, you simply cannot understand v.27.

What you believe is contradicting the scriptures that specifically state that we must endure to the end.

Well, since v.27 ISN'T a condition for being a sheep of Jesus, and since John 5:24 and 6:47 state that those who believe possess eternal life and John 10:28 states that those who possess eternal life (which is when they believe, from the 2 previous verses) shall never perish, you obviously misunderstand those verses about "enduring to the end".

First, the context is about the 7 year Tribulation. It's about hanging in there during the Tribulation. And the verse isn't about soul salvation. That is a completed deal the MOMENT one believes, and you haven't shown otherwise.

Do you believe that only those who will be alive during the tribulations have to endure to the end and everyone else has a free pass? You said yesterday that the church has perverted the gospel.

No, I pointed out that your prequent reference to "the church" is basically meaningless, since there wasn't a unified organized "church". The RCC rose up from the heap by the 2nd Century. Now, there have been biblically aligned believers all along, but none of them were ever big enough to be considered a "spokesman" for Christianity. Unfortunately, the RCC had that position.

And even the reformation, as good as it was, didn't go far enough.

Did they pervert the gospel by making the gate narrower or are you perverting it by making the gate wider?

Go ahead and explain how I have "made it wider"? That makes no sense.

My view of salvation is quite narrow. In fact, as narrow as the Bible's teaching.

How can you believe that every single church the apostles established all agreed to pervert the gospel?

I never said that. Are you even reading what I post? Or are you just going on your bias and responding from your dealings with others from the past?

I even proved the warning about false teachers coming in to the church.

Acts 20:29, 2 Tim 4:3,4

Maybe you should look up the verses I cite in order to be able to follow the discussion.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"I don't know what you mean by "different aspects". Could you explain this?"

Hi FreeGrace2,

If the nature of a statement can have more than one meaning, and there are many emphases that spring from looking into a passage, this being a new idea, I cannot really help you.

Do you seriously think that any verse or passage can have more than one meaning? That would lead to contradictory meanings, or don't you know that?

Let me take some apparent contradictions
Love your neighbour as yourself.
Hate your father, mother, brother, sister
Speak kindly, with compassion to all you meet.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire

Fortunately, none of these examples are even close to the clear message of John 10:28 or 1 Pet 1:23.

There are no single answer to these points, they are points of emphasis with contexts and boundaries.

The good news is that we are not talking about your points, but my single point, that those who believe possess eternal life and shall never perish.

These are some examples of different aspects I am referring to.

There are no "different aspects" to John 10:28.

You appear not to be aware of this obvious issue within walking with Jesus.

I'm talking about what Jesus said SPECIFICALLY about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28.

I could suggest this is a test of what you are doing and why.

You may suggest whatever you want, but I'd rather stick with the singular issue of what Jesus said in John 10:28.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Are we now determining what Scripture says from one's perspective? Are you listening to what you are saying??

Scripture is of NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, says Peter in 2 Pet 1:20 - Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.

So if no Scripture comes from a prophet's OWN interpretation, then we can be sure that it also doesn't come from anyone else's interpretation.

And I didn't give you my "interpretation". I showed what Jesus actually said, which is so clear about eternal security in john 10:28, that it doesn't require highly educated scholars to examine, and study and "try" to figure out what He meant.

OK, so you're just adding up more verses to disagree with, huh?

Then WHY in heaven's name would anyone who claims to be a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ NOT agree with what He has said about recipients of eternal life?

Why aren't you listening to Him?

Which I've NOT done.

I've shown you EXACTLY what Jesus said, which is so clear that everyone can understand.

I agree with you that this would be nuts. Humans are NOT the source of objective truth. Only God is. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

And we are supposed to BELIEVE what God says.

"Scripture is of NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, says Peter in 2 Pet 1:20 - Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things."

You make me laugh because what you have written sums up your difficulty.
In life there is only ones own private interpretation. Our interpretation just
agrees with others. What is called a public or group interpretation is the
consensus view, which often links into denominations or theological groups.

Your view trumps mine because you hold the objective truth and I must be
corrected. This is how cults and dictatorships work. It is how a teacher introduces
a subject to their students before they know anything. As they learn they discover
"the truth" was actually approximated. And different people have different views.

Seems like as I said before you do not understand truth, objective and subjective
realities and how the Lord works with us. He is our teacher, to each heart and
believer. I am sure you would have done well in the spanish inquisition,

 

[LightLoveHope]

Do you seriously think that any verse or passage can have more than one meaning? That would lead to contradictory meanings, or don't you know that?

I have to ask you this, just so I know. Did you go to university and have you ever be trained in debating and discovering truth?

I will try this one with you. Science no longer discovers facts. Science discovers what things are not. It may sound odd at first, but we can show something is not one thing or another. But when you come to clearly define what something is, you find it is more than one thing and often the description is just an approximation of something else. This is the world we live in.

Scripture is no different. And yes, scripture and its interpretations causes contradictions.
Like the concept of eternal security.
Eternal security denies free will, rebellion, evil and destruction.
It denies relationship and raises security above redemption. Jesus knew of people who thought this way.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets'
matthew 23:29-30

 

[LightLoveHope]

Hi FreeGrace2,

It is productive if it is possible to understand whether you grasp the idea
of how we discover truth and we debate between two people their views.
If not, which it appears to be the case, you present your case and leave.

I appreciate you efforts, but time costs, and this type of discussion that you
desire wastes it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

OK, let's just unpack this.

First, I never said John 10:28 was a lie. I DID say that IF any believer can perish, THEN the verse is a lie. Do you not see the difference?

Second, you have STILL NOT shown that there are any words in v.27 that constitute a condition to be met in order to BECOME a sheep of Jesus.

Again, until you can discern between a statement of description from a conditional statement, you simply cannot understand v.27.


Well, since v.27 ISN'T a condition for being a sheep of Jesus, and since John 5:24 and 6:47 state that those who believe possess eternal life and John 10:28 states that those who possess eternal life (which is when they believe, from the 2 previous verses) shall never perish, you obviously misunderstand those verses about "enduring to the end".

First, the context is about the 7 year Tribulation. It's about hanging in there during the Tribulation. And the verse isn't about soul salvation. That is a completed deal the MOMENT one believes, and you haven't shown otherwise.


No, I pointed out that your prequent reference to "the church" is basically meaningless, since there wasn't a unified organized "church". The RCC rose up from the heap by the 2nd Century. Now, there have been biblically aligned believers all along, but none of them were ever big enough to be considered a "spokesman" for Christianity. Unfortunately, the RCC had that position.

And even the reformation, as good as it was, didn't go far enough.


Go ahead and explain how I have "made it wider"? That makes no sense.

My view of salvation is quite narrow. In fact, as narrow as the Bible's teaching.


I never said that. Are you even reading what I post? Or are you just going on your bias and responding from your dealings with others from the past?

I even proved the warning about false teachers coming in to the church.

Acts 20:29, 2 Tim 4:3,4

Maybe you should look up the verses I cite in order to be able to follow the discussion.

What your saying is some sheep follow and some don’t. That is not what Jesus said in verse 27 or anywhere else in the scriptures my friend.

 

[LightLoveHope]

The mark of the Beast

"Why assume that believers will take the mark of the beast. The Bible doesn't even suggest such a thing. And if it were true, then Jesus lied in John 10:28."

So when a contradiction occurs it is not the interpreter that is wrong, it is Jesus's words.
We are secure in Christ because we are His sheep, hear His voice and follow Him.

One man I know called me from the pit, preaching and leading people to Hell.
Ironically he openly denied the need to listen to Jesus and follow Him.

This is what I call real delusion. What I have discovered in this group is their hurt
and anger at life in the church. Commonly they grew up in the church, got disallusioned,
and hurt, fell away and now have come back with a totally compromised moral version of faith that of not listening to Jesus and saying He lies and is sarcastic, raising higher standards than
we could ever follow.

But then the words are fulfilled, they are not His sheep, because they neither listen to Him or follow Him. This is not an argument, and probably an eternal reality. By definition a sheep would never behave like this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"Scripture is of NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION, says Peter in 2 Pet 1:20 - Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things."

You make me laugh because what you have written sums up your difficulty.
In life there is only ones own private interpretation.

No, you have just expressed another rejection of Scripture. Why do you continue to reject that which refutes your own opinions?

Our interpretation just agrees with others.

So does my interpretation. Along with Scripture.

What is called a public or group interpretation is the
consensus view, which often links into denominations or theological groups.

Are you serious that the correct view of Scripture is by democracy?

Your view trumps mine because you hold the objective truth and I must be
corrected.

To be clear, my view trumps yours because it lines up perfectly with what the Bible says.

Seems like as I said before you do not understand truth, objective and subjective realities and how the Lord works with us.

Your opinion here is laughable.

He is our teacher, to each heart and believer.

Then WHY do you not believe what He says so clearly in John 10:28?

I am sure you would have done well in the spanish inquisition,

Nice ad hominem. Did it make you feel better about yourself?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
Do you seriously think that any verse or passage can have more than one meaning? That would lead to contradictory meanings, or don't you know that?

I have to ask you this, just so I know. Did you go to university and have you ever be trained in debating and discovering truth?

Yep. I have a doctorate. But what does that have to do with anything? Seems all you're trying to do is find excuses for your inability to defend your own emotions and opinions.

As far as "having to ask me" another question, why haven't you been answering my questions to you as this discussion continues? What are you trying to hide?

Oops. Another question for you.

I will try this one with you. Science no longer discovers facts. Science discovers what things are not. It may sound odd at first, but we can show something is not one thing or another.

Do you seriously think that last statement supports or proves your first sentence?

My doctorate is in the health sciences, so don't try to fool me. I know much better.

But when you come to clearly define what something is, you find it is more than one thing and often the description is just an approximation of something else. This is the world we live in.

This is just delusional: "when defining something, it is more than one thing".

That is nonsense.

Scripture is no different.

I'll take this, from what you've just said, as meaning anyone can attach their own feelings and opinions to what any verse says.

And yes, scripture and its interpretations causes contradictions.

The reason is clear; people prefer their own opinions and emotions over Scripture.

Like the concept of eternal security.
Eternal security denies free will, rebellion, evil and destruction.

You're going to have to explain this bit of mess, because as a very strong believer in eternal security, I reject totally your comment. So prove to me that your opinion is right.

It denies relationship and raises security above redemption.

This is just nonsense. You're not making any sense. Again, prove your opinion.

Jesus knew of people who thought this way.

News flash! Jesus knows ALL people and what ALL of them think.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets'
matthew 23:29-30

I suppose you may think this applies to me, but since my view of salvation is in direct opposition to that of the Pharisees, you'd just be wrong again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi FreeGrace2,

It is productive if it is possible to understand whether you grasp the idea
of how we discover truth and we debate between two people their views.
If not, which it appears to be the case, you present your case and leave.

I appreciate you efforts, but time costs, and this type of discussion that you
desire wastes it.

There is only one way to "discover truth". That's simply to believe what is plainly said. Of course when metaphors and figures of speech are employed in the Bible, we need a lot of discernment, and knowledge of what else the Bible says plainly, so we don't go down a rabbit trail into false doctrine.

And Jesus couldn't have the fact of made eternal life more clear than what He said in John 10:28.

I gave you a color coded explanation of what that verse was stating.

How come you never engaged with my color coded explanation? I made it easy to follow my 2 points about what the verse was teaching.

The 2 points are simple:
1. Jesus told us the CAUSE of those who have eternal life. He is the CAUSE because He is the Giver.
2. Jesus told us the EFFECT of those who have eternal lfie. They will never perish, because He said so.

And...you simply don't believe that.

If one is in error, it should be relatively easy to refute the error from truth, which is the Bible. And you haven't even attempted to refute my explanation.

That tells me something. You can't and you know it, so you avoid it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Now, there have been biblically aligned believers all along, but none of them were ever big enough to be considered a "spokesman" for Christianity

And you have absolutely no proof of this at all. This is based solely on your assumption because we’ve already been thru this discussion when you mentioned the anabaptists.

No, I pointed out that your prequent reference to "the church" is basically meaningless, since there wasn't a unified organized "church"

All of the churches were unified since day one. All of the apostles were taught be Christ and went out and established the churches all with the same teaching. There were no denominations of Christianity. There was only the Church of God. One church in several locations.

I never said that. Are you even reading what I post? Or are you just going on your bias and responding from your dealings with others from the past?

All the churches taught the same gospel which you said has been perverted by the church. If any one of the churches had perverted the gospel and believe me some did try the rest of the churches rebuked them and excommunicated them. Nestorius is one example when he was rejecting that Jesus was fully God and fully man. Cyril was very compassionate in his attempts to sway Nestorius to reconsider but Nestorius refused and as a result he was excommunicated from the church as a heretic. As for Rome they didn’t run the church. Are you aware that there was no pope before 1054AD? That the church was governed by the pentarchy which consisted of 5 bishops? The bishops of Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Rome, and Jerusalem. These 5 bishops met at councils to decide the doctrines and traditions of all the churches. The bishop of Rome held a position of honor but not authority. It wasn’t until 1054AD that the Roman bishop claimed papal primacy and demanded that all the churches must submit to his authority or they would be forced to close their church. That’s when the other 4 bishops of the pentarchy excommunicated the Roman church and adopted the name Orthodox which means traditional.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What your saying is some sheep follow and some don’t.

Did the second soil "follow" after they "believed for a while...and then fell away"?

Was the believer involved in incest in 1 Cor 5:5 following Christ?

Were Ananias and Saphira following Christ when they lied to the Holy Spirit?

Are you naive, or what?

That is not what Jesus said in verse 27 or anywhere else in the scriptures my friend.

It appears that you've never even read v.27 by saying this.

He was DESCRIBING what His sheep DO. Not HOW one becomes a sheep of His.

If you can't agree with this, there is no hope of any kind of adult discussion with you, because that is exactly what v.27 says.

And there are NO WORDS to indicate a condition to be met.

"My sheep hear My voice and follow Me".

So, show me the exact words that create a condition to be met.

I know you can't. So I'll give you a statement that DOES include a condition to be met in order to become one of His sheep:

"Those who hear My voice and follow Me will be My sheep".

If you can't see the obvious difference, you're just not trying.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All of the churches were unified since day one.

You are making it quite clear that you do not believe Scripture. I gave you 2 verses that warn of coming false teaching infiltrating the believers (church).

Acts 20:29 - I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

2 Tim 4:3,4
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

And you choose to disbelieve these warnings. Well, they occurred.

All of the apostles were taught be Christ and went out and established the churches all with the same teaching.

See Acts 20:29 and 2 Tim 4:3,4.

There were no denominations of Christianity. There was only the Church of God. One church in several locations.

And the false teachers that infiltrated them.

Have you not read Rev 2 and 3? And the condition of churches EVEN BEFORE the turn of the Century???

All the churches taught the same gospel which you said has been perverted by the church.

More error. I never said "by the church". I said IN the church, by, guess who? false teachers. See Acts 20:29 and 2 Tim 4:3,4.

If any one of the churches had perverted the gospel and believe me some did try the rest of the churches rebuked them and excommunicated them. Nestorius is one example when he was rejecting that Jesus was fully God and fully man. Cyril was very compassionate in his attempts to sway Nestorius to reconsider but Nestorius refused and as a result he was excommunicated from the church as a heretic. As for Rome they didn’t run the church. Are you aware that there was no pope before 1054AD? That the church was governed by the pentarchy which consisted of 5 bishops? The bishops of Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, Rome, and Jerusalem. These 5 bishops met at councils to decide the doctrines and traditions of all the churches. The bishop of Rome held a position of honor but not authority. It wasn’t until 1054AD that the Roman bishop claimed papal primacy and demanded that all the churches must submit to his authority or they would be forced to close their church. That’s when the other 4 bishops of the pentarchy excommunicated the Roman church and adopted the name Orthodox which means traditional.

Your eyes are closed to the truth. Read Acts 20:29 and 2 Tim 4:3,4. It happened. IN the churches.

Are you not aware of what Satan has been doing for the past 2 thousand years? Deceiving the world. Including believers, into false doctrine. Of which you participate.

 

[LightLoveHope]

All the churches taught the same gospel which you said has been perverted by the church

I listened to a lecture on the accuracy of scripture. It turns out we have so much early church documentation and commentaries, you could reconstruct the bible from the commentaries and quotes. The difficulty is there are simply not enough scholars to handle the material.

And what we are not doing, is confessing our sins to each other. If anything we are no way sincere enough about our failings and dealing with them. So a group who want to go even further into ignoring sin and being reprobate and anarchistic, they are the corrupting influence on the faith. Ironic those that want to claim corruption are the corrupters.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Were Ananias and Saphira following Christ when they lied to the Holy Spirit?

So they sold everything they owned because they didn’t believe?

 

[BNR32FAN]

It appears that you've never even read v.27 by saying this.

He was DESCRIBING what His sheep DO. Not HOW one becomes a sheep of His.

No I completely agree with this. His sheep undoubtedly do follow but they follow (abide) until the end not just for a little while.

 

[LightLoveHope]

There is only one way to "discover truth". That's simply to believe what is plainly said

Oh no. You say you have a doctorate. This is worse than I thought.
What was your discipline?

By the way you are not believing what it is plainly saying.
Jesus's sheep listen to Him, follow Him and know Him.

Have you ever gone up to a dog that does not know you and
tried to tell it what to do? It will just run away.

You have said Jesus's sheep can ignore Him, rebel against Him, and
go their own way. That is not what it says. It simply says the sheep
of Jesus listen to Him, follow Him and know Him.

When I read the sermon on the mount my heart rejoiced. No matter
how difficult I want to follow this guy and understand His words.

Does not sound like this is you? And surprisingly we do not agree.
The great thing about this, it is your loss not mine.

I had a long conversation with a guy who denied the sermon on the
mount applied to believers. Funnily this meant he was not a sheep.
So I hope you are a sheep, but your fruit will tell me......God bless

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are making it quite clear that you do not believe Scripture. I gave you 2 verses that warn of coming false teaching infiltrating the believers (church)

What verses say they infiltrate the church. If I’m not mistaken the verses you quoted said they left the church not infiltrated.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I listened to a lecture on the accuracy of scripture. It turns out we have so much early church documentation and commentaries, you could reconstruct the bible from the commentaries and quotes. The difficulty is there are simply not enough scholars to handle the material.

And what we are not doing, is confessing our sins to each other. If anything we are no way sincere enough about our failings and dealing with them. So a group who want to go even further into ignoring sin and being reprobate and anarchistic, they are the corrupting influence on the faith. Ironic those that want to claim corruption are the corrupters.

There’s still hope for them. They need prayers.