2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[FreeGrace2]

Believers are wise because the follow Jesus. That is the definition of wisdom, the fear of God.

If you believe that any believer can perish, you SHOULD fear God, because you are in direct conflict with what Jesus taught.

Universalism begins when the bar to salvation becomes meaningless.

Why do you keep bringing up this nonsense of universalism? There is NO connection between that and eternal security at all. But then, you don't ever explain yourself, so I don't really know how they are related in your mind.

On the security of faith, as I have said I know I am saved because I know Jesus
loves me through the cross and my acceptance of it.

What do you mean by "the security of faith"? I've never spoken of that, since there is no verse that speaks of that.

I only speak of eternal security, by which those who have believed in Christ for salvation are given eternal life, and shall never perish.

And I rejoice in His gift by following, because I believe what He says, I will build my house upon a rock and it will stand.

Do you believe that a believer can ever perish?

Now this is me and my Saviour. Next comes my view what happens to those
who fall away. The truth is it is up to God.

Jesus already covered this. Those He gives eternal life shall never perish. But it seems you have a contrary idea about that. Such as; if a recipient of eternal life ceases to believe, then God takes the gift of eternal life away from them, and they shall perish.

So, your view is in direct conflict with Jesus Christ's. You really should FEAR God. Since you don't believe what His Son has said.

Do some appear to come to faith, and then leave? Yes.

I'm not interested in the some who "appear" to come to faith. I only speak of those who HAVE come to faith.

Do I have assurance of salvation? Yes.

Based on what, specifically?

Has anyone real hope if they abandon believing is Jesus?

Everyone who has been given eternal life shall never perish. Seems what Jesus taught just isn't sinking into your head.

The promises are for those who believe, not for those who have gone cold.

So again, all you are saying is that IF someone ceases to believe, God takes back His gift. That is totally against what Jesus taught.

Now I wonder why this is such a difficult issue among people who desire
to follow Jesus? Is there another agenda here?

My "agenda" is to defend the Truth of Scripture and expose the FALSE TEACHING that anyone who has received eternal life can perish.

Because Jesus said they shall never perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Chain of custody.

Jesus said His people grow from something small into a fantastic body, honouring
Him, His ambassadors on earth.

Interesting. Could you direct me to the actual verse where He said this?

 

[BNR32FAN]

v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO.

Amen!! And if they do not follow they are not His sheep.

Don't you understand that there was no such thing as a unified "Christianity" after the 1st Century? Romanism totally perverted the gospel and added works to faith for salvation and even sold "indulgences". There were biblical believers all along, but not in any organized manner.

Rome didn’t start perverting the scriptures until the 6th century. Their addition of the filioque to the Nicene Creed without the consent of the ecumenical council was their first mistake.

2 Tim 4:3,4
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Yes I agree completely. Do you think people are perverting the gospel to make salvation more difficult by saying we have to do what God wants or by making it easier by saying we can do whatever we want as long as we believe?

Let me ask you once again: if a person has been given eternal life by Jesus, can they EVER perish? Please answer.

That depends. If they have already received eternal life then no they are already in heaven. If they have not received eternal life then yes because they must be victorious and endure to the end before they can receive it.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Interesting. Could you direct me to the actual verse where He said this?

He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."
Matt 13:31-33

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:17

After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.
Rev 7:9

The Kingdom of heaven was established on earth by Jesus at Pentecost. Since then it has grown and spread through believers who have trusted in His name and followed His way.
Faith has passed from one believer on to the next.

There are always people, His sheep, who respond to His calling.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Security of salvation - extremes

1. Sinless perfection - If Jesus expects us to forgive continually because we need forgiveness part of our walk is coming to terms with the walk of transformation and failure while being in the Holy Spirit.
2. Always saved - If taking the mark of the beast dooms you to the lake of fire, it is simply not true once walking with Jesus, the door is always closed. That would be forced salvation which denies everything about Jesus and God. He is worthy because we know this and agree with it, it is the foundation of the heaven. It is also why satan could rebel and be doomed.
3. Open heart - we need to be open to hurt, to love, to emotion and to caring. It is how God speaks to us and we hear other people. A closed heart, defended and protected, with anger and bitterness driving it, will always lead to sin and death.

All three issues are intertwined. Our goal is to be like Jesus, except this is a long and difficult road, a narrow path. There is tension between who we are, and who we are working to become, but it is through obedience, failure and trials that this becomes a reality.

The problem of security and the world breaking in, reminds us of who we are, and how destructive and dangerous the world is. Because we know He is worthy and we love Him we walk on. There is another group who fear hell, and are safe in Jesus eternally from hell though they do not "know" Him. If you do not know Him, then ofcourse another version of faith is needed to achieve the same kind of results.

Open heart. Without an open heart, able to empathise and feel love, one could believe anything, as long as it makes sense, and do anything that conforms to ones ideas.
This is the road of blind faith, driven by hurts and anger of the past.

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
Luke 6:45

"I never knew you"
Matt 7:21

Knowledge of Christ and a version of faith does not secure salvation.
To call Jesus, "Lord" implies they believed they were saved.

Test yourselves
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
2 Cor 13:5

There is no point in saying test yourselves if in reality all who hold faith are saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Amen!! And if they do not follow they are not His sheep.

Please provide any verse that making following a condition for having eternal life, or even "becoming His sheep".

This is a challenge to your opinion. I don't believe you as there are no verses that say what you are claiming.

That depends. If they have already received eternal life then no they are already in heaven.

Did you never read 1 John 5:11? Please note the tense:
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

And note the verb tense of possession in these verses:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Were you just unaware of these verses, or do you just not believe them? It may help if you begin to start reading the Bible.

If they have not received eternal life then yes because they must be victorious and endure to the end before they can receive it.

See verses above for the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You had said this:
"Jesus said His people grow from something small into a fantastic body, honouring
Him, His ambassadors on earth."

I asked where He said this.

He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."
Matt 13:31-33

As I suspected, the parable says NOTHING of what you are ascribing to Jesus. What is obvious to most people is that the parable is about "the kingdom of heaven", not individual believers or people.

So you've misread and misunderstood the parable completely.

There are always people, His sheep, who respond to His calling.

Are these people 'His sheep' before they respond to His calling, or as a result of responding to his calling?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Please provide any verse that making following a condition for having eternal life, or even "becoming His sheep".

This is a challenge to your opinion. I don't believe you as there are no verses that say what you are claiming.

I have been quoting these verses since the day we first met. John 13:13 Matthew 25:31-46

“And everyone will hate you because you are my followers. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭
Mark 13:13

Matthew 24:13

Hebrews 3:14

Matthew 10:22

I don’t have time now to post all the other scriptures that say we will receive salvation. These verses indicate that John 10:27 by saying my sheep follow they must continue to follow. They cannot turn away and still be saved. They must endure to the end.

 

[LightLoveHope]

You had said this:
"Jesus said His people grow from something small into a fantastic body, honouring
Him, His ambassadors on earth."

I asked where He said this.

As I suspected, the parable says NOTHING of what you are ascribing to Jesus. What is obvious to most people is that the parable is about "the kingdom of heaven", not individual believers or people.

So you've misread and misunderstood the parable completely.


Are these people 'His sheep' before they respond to His calling, or as a result of responding to his calling?

Hi FreeGrace2,

Your way of looking at Jesus and the text is different to mine. I hope you have the
patience for me to explain.

I read scripture and it speaks to me, reminds me of other passages, nuances, emphasis
here and there. It is a subtle interplay of issues and concepts. It is vast and possibly
infinite in character and importance.

Now when I share I share this and trust those listening are encouraged and uplifted by
it like I am.

So when you say "NOTHING" and "you've misread and misunderstood the parable completely" I feel like a guy who has just been mugged.

A mugger just causes bruises and hurts the other party and does nothing else.
I do not doubt you are sure and certain in your views. God bless you in this
certainty and faith. But unless we can meet with the Lord in love, together,
I have "nothing" from you. The Lord is good how He teaches us, each one,
with His truths through the same passages, year after year, but with different
aspects. Thank you Jesus for sending your Holy Spirit into our lives to minister
to us, Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Security of salvation - extremes

Why bother with extremists? Isn't what the Bible says good enough?

1. Sinless perfection - If Jesus expects us to forgive continually because we need forgiveness part of our walk is coming to terms with the walk of transformation and failure while being in the Holy Spirit.

No such thing this side of eternity.

2. Always saved - If taking the mark of the beast dooms you to the lake of fire, it is simply not true once walking with Jesus, the door is always closed. That would be forced salvation which denies everything about Jesus and God. He is worthy because we know this and agree with it, it is the foundation of the heaven. It is also why satan could rebel and be doomed.

Why assume that believers will take the mark of the beast. The Bible doesn't even suggest such a thing. And if it were true, then Jesus lied in John 10:28.

3. Open heart - we need to be open to hurt, to love, to emotion and to caring. It is how God speaks to us and we hear other people. A closed heart, defended and protected, with anger and bitterness driving it, will always lead to sin and death.

None of this is relevant to security.

All three issues are intertwined.

No they aren't. #2 is biblical, the rest is junk.

Our goal is to be like Jesus, except this is a long and difficult road, a narrow path.

This has nothing to do with our security. This is the expectation (command) for all believers.

There is tension between who we are, and who we are working to become, but it is through obedience, failure and trials that this becomes a reality.

The only tension is described in Gal 5:17.

The problem of security and the world breaking in, reminds us of who we are, and how destructive and dangerous the world is.

How is any of this a "problem of security" or for security? There is NO problem with our security. And the fact that you think there is a problem shows YOUR problem with what the Bible teaches.

"I never knew you"
Matt 7:21

This statement proves that the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 NEVER believed. Or Jesus couldn't have said what He said to them.

Which is what 2 Thess 2:12 (this thread) and John 3:18 also say.

Knowledge of Christ and a version of faith does not secure salvation.

Who's talking about some "version of faith". Let's just stick with what the Bible says.

To call Jesus, "Lord" implies they believed they were saved.

OK, then Jesus lied by saying He NEVER knew them. How could He say that about ANYONE who HAS believed?

Consider the context. Where is this crowd and where is Jesus? This is about the Great White Throne, where "every knee shall bow". So Jesus is sitting on the White Throne. Everyone WILL bow their knee and call Him Lord. You'd better believe it.

They are NOT calling Him Lord because they at one time believed.

Test yourselves
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
2 Cor 13:5

There is no point in saying test yourselves if in reality all who hold faith are saved.

No, you only miss the point. Paul was challenging the Corinthian believers to make sure they were living the Christian life.

 

[LightLoveHope]

We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
2 Cor 5:20

After seeing how many take things out of their true position, it makes you realise
how the monks and those educated did not want to quickly share the details with
the population. To grow to maturity in Christ is not an easy thing and many get
lost along the way.

Once one sees the inner walk is more relevant than the outer walk, it is easier to
know certainty is often the victim of emotional distortion than the love Christ has
put in our hearts.

I like one position pited against another because only one comes out the other side.
A bit of a problem if both are right, but context and emphasis are everything. In this
case the adventure is the key, and learning how things are layered, which is much
harder and more difficult to agree upon.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have been quoting these verses since the day we first met. John 13:13 Matthew 25:31-46

“And everyone will hate you because you are my followers. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
‭‭
Mark 13:13

Matthew 24:13

Hebrews 3:14

Matthew 10:22

When are you going to consider the context about "enduring to the end to be saved"? Quit ignoring the context, which is about the Tribulation, a fixed time of 7 years.

I don’t have time now to post all the other scriptures that say we will receive salvation.

And there is NO NEED to. Why? Because those verses are speaking of WHEN we will finally enter eternity.

I've shown you a number of verses that speak in the PRESENT TENSE of having (possessing) eternal life (John 5;24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13) and one verse that is clear that eternal life HAS BEEN GIVEN to believers (1 John 5:11).

So you have no point.

These verses indicate that John 10:27 by saying my sheep follow they must continue to follow.

No they don't. That's only your opinion. v.27 is a statement of description.

It seems you have a problem discerning the difference between a statement of description and a conditional statement. There is NOTHING in v.27 that indicates a condition that must be met.

They cannot turn away and still be saved. They must endure to the end.

Then just admit here and now that John 10:28 is a lie. Because that verse doesn't permit your opinion.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Why bother with extremists? Isn't what the Bible says good enough?
No such thing this side of eternity.
Why assume that believers will take the mark of the beast. The Bible doesn't even suggest such a thing. And if it were true, then Jesus lied in John 10:28.
None of this is relevant to security.
No they aren't. #2 is biblical, the rest is junk.
This has nothing to do with our security. This is the expectation (command) for all believers.
The only tension is described in Gal 5:17.
How is any of this a "problem of security" or for security? There is NO problem with our security. And the fact that you think there is a problem shows YOUR problem with what the Bible teaches.
This statement proves that the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 NEVER believed. Or Jesus couldn't have said what He said to them.
Which is what 2 Thess 2:12 (this thread) and John 3:18 also say.
Who's talking about some "version of faith". Let's just stick with what the Bible says.
OK, then Jesus lied by saying He NEVER knew them. How could He say that about ANYONE who HAS believed?
Consider the context. Where is this crowd and where is Jesus? This is about the Great White Throne, where "every knee shall bow". So Jesus is sitting on the White Throne. Everyone WILL bow their knee and call Him Lord. You'd better believe it.
They are NOT calling Him Lord because they at one time believed.
No, you only miss the point. Paul was challenging the Corinthian believers to make sure they were living the Christian life.

Lol. Am I your opponent or a christian brother you are trying to encourage?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hi FreeGrace2,

Your way of looking at Jesus and the text is different to mine. I hope you have the
patience for me to explain.

I read scripture and it speaks to me, reminds me of other passages, nuances, emphasis
here and there. It is a subtle interplay of issues and concepts. It is vast and possibly
infinite in character and importance.

Now when I share I share this and trust those listening are encouraged and uplifted by
it like I am.

So when you say "NOTHING" and "you've misread and misunderstood the parable completely" I feel like a guy who has just been mugged.

A mugger just causes bruises and hurts the other party and does nothing else.
I do not doubt you are sure and certain in your views. God bless you in this
certainty and faith. But unless we can meet with the Lord in love, together,
I have "nothing" from you. The Lord is good how He teaches us, each one,
with His truths through the same passages, year after year, but with different
aspects. Thank you Jesus for sending your Holy Spirit into our lives to minister
to us, Amen.

Well said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi FreeGrace2,

Your way of looking at Jesus and the text is different to mine. I hope you have the
patience for me to explain.

That's why I post.

I read scripture and it speaks to me, reminds me of other passages, nuances, emphasis here and there. It is a subtle interplay of issues and concepts. It is vast and possibly infinite in character and importance.

Please don't let your emotions get in the way of objective truth.

Now when I share I share this and trust those listening are encouraged and uplifted by it like I am.

It is not uplifting when what is posted is in conflict with Scripture.

So when you say "NOTHING" and "you've misread and misunderstood the parable completely" I feel like a guy who has just been mugged.

I'm sorry that you are offended. But here is another example of your emotions getting in the way of objective truth. It seems you just don't like being corrected.

A mugger just causes bruises and hurts the other party and does nothing else.
I do not doubt you are sure and certain in your views.

If you can explain from the Scripture that I post in support of my views that I've misread those verses, please proceed.

But unless we can meet with the Lord in love, together,
I have "nothing" from you.

Know what's missing here? Truth. Jesus said He was THE way, THE truth and THE life. It seems all you're interested in is "love". Well, that's an emotion. Where is the truth in your views? You are driven by emotions, but not truth.

That said, I certainly am NOT denigrading love. The beloved apostle John wrote all about the importance of love in His first epistle. But you place emotions above truth when you claim that a believer who behaves in a certain way will not get to heaven. That's just emotions talking.

The Lord is good how He teaches us, each one, with His truths through the same passages, year after year, but with different aspects.

I don't know what you mean by "different aspects". Could you explain this?

Thank you Jesus for sending your Holy Spirit into our lives to minister to us, Amen.

Please believe that John 10:28 is clear that everyone who has believed possesses eternal life and shall never perish.

Because that's what Jesus said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lol. Am I your opponent or a christian brother you are trying to encourage?

Why is correction so offensive to you? Are you not correctable?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Why is correction so offensive to you? Are you not correctable?

Hi FreeGrace2,

Telling me the correct interpretation is not correction. Sharing your perspective and why you hold it is. I can then consider and agree to disagree or grow in my understanding.

Do you know who our teacher is?
The Christ. The Holy Spirit also has the ministry of leading us into truth

And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
Matt23:9-10

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 14:26

So if you hold yourself up as the teacher who is the authority to which we should just
submit, you have already become a false-teacher.

I have come across the idea before that humans are the source of objective truth, and it has always led to heresy.

This is part of the protestant tradition, a fellowship of believers who consider themselves equal before God and called to minister one to another. Amen.

 

[LightLoveHope]

correction - offensive

This reminds me of a time when I went to church in the expectation of being reproved and corrected by the Lord, which happened regularly. So I delight in correction from the Lord,
it is my lifeblood. Dictatorial abuse is just that, and is not of the Lord.

 

[BNR32FAN]

When are you going to consider the context about "enduring to the end to be saved"? Quit ignoring the context, which is about the Tribulation, a fixed time of 7 years.


And there is NO NEED to. Why? Because those verses are speaking of WHEN we will finally enter eternity.

I've shown you a number of verses that speak in the PRESENT TENSE of having (possessing) eternal life (John 5;24, 6:47, 1 John 5:13) and one verse that is clear that eternal life HAS BEEN GIVEN to believers (1 John 5:11).

So you have no point.


No they don't. That's only your opinion. v.27 is a statement of description.

It seems you have a problem discerning the difference between a statement of description and a conditional statement. There is NOTHING in v.27 that indicates a condition that must be met.


Then just admit here and now that John 10:28 is a lie. Because that verse doesn't permit your opinion.

John 10:28 is not a lie because if someone doesn’t follow they are not His sheep. What you believe is contradicting the scriptures that specifically state that we must endure to the end. Do you believe that only those who will be alive during the tribulations have to endure to the end and everyone else has a free pass? You said yesterday that the church has perverted the gospel. Did they pervert the gospel by making the gate narrower or are you perverting it by making the gate wider? How can you believe that every single church the apostles established all agreed to pervert the gospel? That not one of them remained true to God’s Word? Did the gates of hell prevail against His church? Surely you can’t believe this to be true.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I don't know what you mean by "different aspects". Could you explain this?

Hi FreeGrace2,

If the nature of a statement can have more than one meaning, and there are many emphases that spring from looking into a passage, this being a new idea, I cannot really help you.

Let me take some apparent contradictions
Love your neighbour as yourself.
Hate your father, mother, brother, sister
Speak kindly, with compassion to all you meet.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire

There are no single answer to these points, they are points of emphasis with contexts and boundaries. These are some examples of different aspects I am referring to.
You appear not to be aware of this obvious issue within walking with Jesus.

I could suggest this is a test of what you are doing and why.