THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY!

[BobRyan]

How long after?

Could have been soon after given what we find in 3 John

3 John
9 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. 10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.

2 Thess 2
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,

1 Tim 1
3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

So when did the bishop of Rome become a pope?

Not in the first or second century.

When was the entire Christian church commanded to break the Ten Commandments?

Not in the first century.

 

[klutedavid]

Not in the first or second century.

When was the entire Christian church commanded to break the Ten Commandments?

Not in the first century.

Could have been soon after given what we find in 3 John

3 John
9 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. 10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.

2 Thess 2
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,

1 Tim 1
3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

That is a speculative guess and lacks the historical evidence to support the claim.

 

[klutedavid]

Not in the first or second century.

When was the entire Christian church commanded to break the Ten Commandments?

Not in the first century.

The Gentile church was commanded to annul the law by Paul. We see that physical circumcision was recorded in the law, but the Gentile church was prohibited from obeying that law. Paul was the one who gave this instruction to the Gentile church.

Do you deny that the law was annulled by Paul?

 

[BobRyan]

How long after?

Could have been soon after given what we find in 3 John

3 John
9 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. 10 For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.

2 Thess 2
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first,

1 Tim 1
3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

That is a speculative guess and lacks the historical evidence to support the claim.

I gave the answer of "soon after" -- if you want to go with "a long time after Paul's death and John's death" as the time when they started breaking the Ten Commandments as the "norm" for the church - I am somewhat ok with that.

My point is that the texts above show that they were already having problems before John's death.

 

[BobRyan]

The Gentile church was commanded to annul the law by Paul.

That is merely your own "creative writing"

Here is the actual Bible in real life.

"We ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"It is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Rom 2:13-16
"honor your father and mother for this is the FIRST COMMANDMENT with a promise" Eph 6:2
only the wicked "do not and indeed CAN NOT submit to the LAW of God" Rom 8:4-11
"THIS IS the NEW Covenant... I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Hebrews 8:6-12

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of GOD and their faith in Jesus" 1 John 3:4

I prefer the actual Bible - but you can always choose your creative writing - you have free will.

Do you deny that the law was annulled by Paul?

yes - because I read the Bible.

 

[klutedavid]

That is merely your own "creative writing"

Here is the actual Bible in real life.

"We ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"It is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Rom 2:13-16
"honor your father and mother for this is the FIRST COMMANDMENT with a promise" Eph 6:2
only the wicked "do not and indeed CAN NOT submit to the LAW of God" Rom 8:4-11
"THIS IS the NEW Covenant... I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Hebrews 8:6-12

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of GOD and their faith in Jesus" 1 John 3:4

I prefer the actual Bible - but you can always choose your creative writing - you have free will.



yes - because I read the Bible.

Now that is your interpretation of the text. Yet we see clearly in the text, that circumcision was no longer a valid law. Hence, we know that the law was no longer a valid tool of instruction, for Christian behavior. You cannot deny that the letter of the law, circumcision, had become invalid as law.

If just one letter of the law has passed, then logically, the entire law has passed.

 

[BobRyan]

The Gentile church was commanded to annul the law by Paul.

That is merely your own "creative writing"

Here is the actual Bible in real life.

"We ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"It is not the hearers of the LAW that are just before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge" Rom 2:13-16
"honor your father and mother for this is the FIRST COMMANDMENT with a promise" Eph 6:2
only the wicked "do not and indeed CAN NOT submit to the LAW of God" Rom 8:4-11
"THIS IS the NEW Covenant... I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Hebrews 8:6-12

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of GOD and their faith in Jesus" 1 John 3:4

I prefer the actual Bible - but you can always choose your creative writing - you have free will.

Do you deny that the law was annulled by Paul?

yes - because I read the Bible.

Now that is your interpretation

Nope. It is a case of the fact that I "read".

And "details matter".

Pure and simple.

Yet we see clearly in the text, that circumcision was no longer a valid law.

That is a rabbit trail distraction "as if" doing away with a ceremonial law - also destroys moral law.

Something so obviously flawed in logic that even your own pro-sunday scholars across all denominations refute it.

Impossible to spin that all back to "just BobRyan" and we all know it. (Hence my signature line)

======================

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

Pretty hard to lump that all into "just BobRyan accept the Bible texts that tell us about the moral law of God and the New Covenant including the TEN Commandments"

 

[Daisybell]

Hopefully this will help those who don't understand about observing the Sabbath Day (instead of Sunday) as Jesus taught and the Apostolic Church kept (for many years after He was resurrected).
From Sabbath to Sunday

THE SABBATH CONTROVERSY

Also the Resurrection was NOT on Sunday.
VIDEO TIMELINE EXPLAINING 3 DAYS & NIGHTS - EASTER / PASSOVER

 

[Saint Steven]

Hi All,

This thread is for scripture only. We would like to show that the "LORD'S DAY" that many proclaim is SUNDAY is a false teaching and you will not find this in God's WORD.

Let's start by looking at your scriptures that many use to claim SUNDAY is the "LORD'S DAY"

REVELATIONS 1:9-11 [9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. [10], I was in the Spirit on the LORD'S DAY, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, [11], Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What you see, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

No doubt about it Revelations 1:10 clearly says that John was in the SPIRIT on the "LORD'S DAY"!

NOW the only problem you have is the need to show scripture that says SUNDAY IS THE LORD'S DAY.

Can you please provide scripture that says SUNDAY or the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK is the "LORD'S DAY"?

If you cannot find any scriptures to say that SUNDAY is the "LORD'S DAY" then you have a problem.

.............

He has not proved that "the Lord's Day" is the Sabbath. Just wishful thinking on his part.

I did not read through all thirty plus pages here. Hopefully this has already been addressed. If not...

Whenever Sabbatarians address this issue, they immediately want to limit sources to the Bible. There are two issues with this.

First, they shoot themselves in the foot, because "the Lord's Day" is not defined in the key scripture. They have to string together a pile of "proof-texts" to make their point. None of which adequately defines the term.

Secondly, the topic originator was happy to explore the Greek on this, which requires an outside source, a NT Greek lexicon. How come that is okay but other sources are not? We are trying to define a term, we may need an outside source to do that. In fact we do, because, as I said, the term is NOT defined in the key text.

The best way to define what the term, "the Lord's Day" means is to look at the early writings of the church, where the term is clearly defined as the first day of the week, the queen of days, the day of our Lord's resurrection, Sunday.

But that's against the rules set up in the OP. So I suppose we will have to settle for the false definition provided by the topic originator. Unless he wants to break his own rules AGAIN and allow outside sources.

He will no doubt ask why anyone would want to take their doctrine from an OUTSIDE extra-biblical source (not "God's WORD"). But he does exactly that when he uses his study tools. So, what's the BIG deal?

 

[Saint Steven]

He has not proved that "the Lord's Day" is the Sabbath. Just wishful thinking on his part.

I did not read through all thirty plus pages here. Hopefully this has already been addressed. If not...

Whenever Sabbatarians address this issue, they immediately want to limit sources to the Bible. There are two issues with this.

First, they shoot themselves in the foot, because "the Lord's Day" is not defined in the key scripture. They have to string together a pile of "proof-texts" to make their point. None of which adequately defines the term.

Secondly, the topic originator was happy to explore the Greek on this, which requires an outside source, a NT Greek lexicon. How come that is okay but other sources are not? We are trying to define a term, we may need an outside source to do that. In fact we do, because, as I said, the term is NOT defined in the key text.

The best way to define what the term, "the Lord's Day" means is to look at the early writings of the church, where the term is clearly defined as the first day of the week, the queen of days, the day of our Lord's resurrection, Sunday.

But that's against the rules set up in the OP. So I suppose we will have to settle for the false definition provided by the topic originator. Unless he wants to break his own rules AGAIN and allow outside sources.

He will no doubt ask why anyone would want to take their doctrine from an OUTSIDE extra-biblical source (not "God's WORD"). But he does exactly that when he uses his study tools. So, what's the BIG deal?

My main point was lost in the middle of my post. Here it is again.

"The best way to define what the term, "the Lord's Day" means is to look at the early writings of the church, where the term is clearly defined as the first day of the week, the queen of days, the day of our Lord's resurrection, Sunday."

On what day was the Apostle John worshiping? (in the Spirit)

Revelation 1:10
On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit...

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

He has not proved that "the Lord's Day" is the Sabbath. Just wishful thinking on his part.

I did not read through all thirty plus pages here. Hopefully this has already been addressed. If not...

Whenever Sabbatarians address this issue, they immediately want to limit sources to the Bible. There are two issues with this.

First, they shoot themselves in the foot, because "the Lord's Day" is not defined in the key scripture. They have to string together a pile of "proof-texts" to make their point. None of which adequately defines the term.

Secondly, the topic originator was happy to explore the Greek on this, which requires an outside source, a NT Greek lexicon. How come that is okay but other sources are not? We are trying to define a term, we may need an outside source to do that. In fact we do, because, as I said, the term is NOT defined in the key text.

The best way to define what the term, "the Lord's Day" means is to look at the early writings of the church, where the term is clearly defined as the first day of the week, the queen of days, the day of our Lord's resurrection, Sunday.

But that's against the rules set up in the OP. So I suppose we will have to settle for the false definition provided by the topic originator. Unless he wants to break his own rules AGAIN and allow outside sources.

He will no doubt ask why anyone would want to take their doctrine from an OUTSIDE extra-biblical source (not "God's WORD"). But he does exactly that when he uses his study tools. So, what's the BIG deal?

There is a big difference between going back to the Original Greek/Hebrew Texts(using a dictionary for the Greek and Hebrew if you do not speak it) and reading from an extra biblical text(writings of men) which is not the inspired word of God, such as the writings of the so called church fathers after the apostles.

The only word that matters when discussing God's word is God's, who shows his Law, will, and word through the Apostles and Christ.

The Original Greek text(and it's meaning) for the Lord's day is this:
1096 [e]
10 egenomēn
10 ἐγενόμην
10 I was
10 V-AIM-1S
1722 [e]
en
ἐν
in
Prep
4151 [e]
Pneumati
Πνεύματι
[the] Spirit
N-DNS
1722 [e]
en
ἐν
on
Prep
3588 [e]
tē
τῇ
the
Art-DFS
2960 [e]
kyriakē
κυριακῇ
Lord’s
Adj-DFS
2250 [e]
hēmera
ἡμέρᾳ ,
day
N-DFS
2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj
191 [e]
ēkousa
ἤκουσα
I heard
V-AIA-1S
3694 [e]
opisō
ὀπίσω
behind
Prep
1473 [e]
mou
μου
me
PPro-G1S
5456 [e]
phōnēn
φωνὴν
a voice
N-AFS
3173 [e]
megalēn
μεγάλην ,
loud
Adj-AFS
5613 [e]
hōs
ὡς
like that
Adv
4536 [e]
salpingos
σάλπιγγος ,
of a trumpet
N-GFS

2960. kuriakos
of the Lord, special to the Lord.

2250. hémera
a day, the period from sunrise to sunset.

That is the definition given for the Lord's day, it simply means a day that is special to the Lord. It doesn't give any specific day, only by adding to this verse can we make it say Sunday. But it doesn't say it is the Sabbath day either(Saturday). It doesn't lend full support to either day just looking at this one verse alone. It could be referring to the Lord's supper( a day devoted to the Lord) which is the only other day that we are commanded to observe outside of the Sabbath day, but again it doesn't specifically mention any day.

 

[Saint Steven]

There is a big difference between going back to the Original Greek/Hebrew Texts(using a dictionary for the Greek and Hebrew if you do not speak it) and reading from an extra biblical text(writings of men) which is not the inspired word of God, such as the writings of the so called church fathers after the apostles.

The only word that matters when discussing God's word is God's, who shows his Law, will, and word through the Apostles and Christ.

...

That is the definition given for the Lord's day, it simply means a day that is special to the Lord. It doesn't give any specific day, only by adding to this verse can we make it say Sunday. But it doesn't say it is the Sabbath day either(Saturday). It doesn't lend full support to either day just looking at this one verse alone. It could be referring to the Lord's supper( a day devoted to the Lord) which is the only other day that we are commanded to observe outside of the Sabbath day, but again it doesn't specifically mention any day.

It looks as though we can both agree that the term "the Lord's Day" is not clearly defined in the key text (Rev.1:10) which is dated as being written in 95 AD. Might the resurrection day be a day special to the lord?

Not sure what your beef is with the early church fathers, other than they weren't Sabbatarians. What does that tell you? Here is what they had to say about the term "the Lord's Day". Remember, Rev.1:10 is dated as being written in 95 AD.

107 AD - IGNATIUS: let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days of the week. (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9. Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.)

130 AD - BARNABAS: Moreover God says to the Jews, 'Your new moons and Sabbaths 1 cannot endure.' You see how he says, 'The present Sabbaths are not acceptable to me, but the Sabbath which I have made in which, when I have rested [heaven: Heb 4] from all things, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.' Wherefore we Christians keep the eighth day for joy, on which also Jesus arose from the dead and when he appeared ascended into heaven. (15:8f, The Epistle of Barnabas, 100 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 147)

150 AD - JUSTIN: But Sunday is the day on which we hold our common assembly, because it is the first day of the week and Jesus our saviour on the same day rose from the dead. (First apology of Justin, Ch 68)

150 AD - JUSTIN: And on the day called Sunday there is a gathering together in the same place of all who live in a city or a rural district. ... We all make our assembly in common on the day of the Sun, since it is the first day, on which God changed the darkness and matter and made the world, and Jesus Christ our Savior arose from the dead on the same day. For they crucified him on the day before Saturn's day, and on the day after (which is the day of the Sun the appeared to his apostles and taught his disciples these things. (Apology, 1, 67:1-3, 7; First Apology, 145 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , Vol. 1, pg. 186)

190 AD - CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA: He does the commandment according to the Gospel and keeps the Lord's day, whenever he puts away an evil mind . . . glorifying the Lord's resurrection in himself. (Vii.xii.76.4)

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

It looks as though we can both agree that the term "the Lord's Day" is not clearly defined in the key text (Rev.1:10) which is dated as being written in 95 AD. Might the resurrection day be a day special to the lord?

Not sure what your beef is with the early church fathers, other than they weren't Sabbatarians. What does that tell you? Here is what they had to say about the term "the Lord's Day". Remember, Rev.1:10 is dated as being written in 95 AD.

107 AD - IGNATIUS: let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days of the week. (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, chp 9. Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 62-63.)

130 AD - BARNABAS: Moreover God says to the Jews, 'Your new moons and Sabbaths 1 cannot endure.' You see how he says, 'The present Sabbaths are not acceptable to me, but the Sabbath which I have made in which, when I have rested [heaven: Heb 4] from all things, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.' Wherefore we Christians keep the eighth day for joy, on which also Jesus arose from the dead and when he appeared ascended into heaven. (15:8f, The Epistle of Barnabas, 100 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , vol. 1, pg. 147)

150 AD - JUSTIN: But Sunday is the day on which we hold our common assembly, because it is the first day of the week and Jesus our saviour on the same day rose from the dead. (First apology of Justin, Ch 68)

150 AD - JUSTIN: And on the day called Sunday there is a gathering together in the same place of all who live in a city or a rural district. ... We all make our assembly in common on the day of the Sun, since it is the first day, on which God changed the darkness and matter and made the world, and Jesus Christ our Savior arose from the dead on the same day. For they crucified him on the day before Saturn's day, and on the day after (which is the day of the Sun the appeared to his apostles and taught his disciples these things. (Apology, 1, 67:1-3, 7; First Apology, 145 AD, Ante-Nicene Fathers , Vol. 1, pg. 186)

190 AD - CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA: He does the commandment according to the Gospel and keeps the Lord's day, whenever he puts away an evil mind . . . glorifying the Lord's resurrection in himself. (Vii.xii.76.4)

Possibly. Though unless we can see it clearly referring to a specific day that Glorifies the Lord(Lord's Supper, the Sabbath, or possibly the day Resurrection Sunday as you contend) this verse should not be used to support any of these days being used by itself, because of its ambiguity.

As to the Early Church Writers, throughout the Apostles time here on earth they were constantly correcting people within the Church and warning them to abstain/remove themselves from the ungodly practices and beliefs that were being introduced by false prophets/teachers. It stands to reason that after the Apostles death these false teachers would have taken hold of/influenced a much larger portion of Church doctrine than was possible when the Church was under the Guidance of the Apostles.

Which is why when we are discussing the word of God we only use what we know for a fact is true since it comes from either the Apostles or Christ. Who we know can be trusted in all things, and we know have fully given to us the Gospel of Christ and the Traditions we are to keep. The Same cannot be said about the so called church fathers, whose words are questionable at best since they are at times in conflict with the words of Paul, Christ, and the other Apostles.

 

[Saint Steven]

Possibly. Though unless we can see it clearly referring to a specific day that Glorifies the Lord(Lord's Supper, the Sabbath, or possibly the day Resurrection Sunday as you contend) this verse should not be used to support any of these days being used by itself, because of its ambiguity.

As to the Early Church Writers, throughout the Apostles time here on earth they were constantly correcting people within the Church and warning them to abstain/remove themselves from the ungodly practices and beliefs that were being introduced by false prophets/teachers. It stands to reason that after the Apostles death these false teachers would have taken hold of/influenced a much larger portion of Church doctrine than was possible when the Church was under the Guidance of the Apostles.

Which is why when we are discussing the word of God we only use what we know for a fact is true since it comes from either the Apostles or Christ. Who we know can be trusted in all things, and we know have fully given to us the Gospel of Christ and the Traditions we are to keep. The Same cannot be said about the so called church fathers, whose words are questionable at best since they are at times in conflict with the words of Paul, Christ, and the other Apostles.

Yes, but the early church fathers were the direct predecessors of the Apostolic ministry. The Apostles were still alive while the church was gathering on the first day of the week. One example I did not include with the previous early church writing was from the Didache, the Teaching of the Twelves Apostles, dated as written in the first century. See below.

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day.
But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."

 

[Saint Steven]

Frankly, all we are trying to do here is define the term, "the Lord's Day". I have provided historical documentation from the early church that defines the term. Any Sabbatarian will not accept the facts because it conflicts with their beliefs. I get that. But it certainly demonstrates that there is more than one valid view on the issue. The topic originator set this up to avoid any outside sources, for obvious reasons.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Yes, but the early church fathers were the direct predecessors of the Apostolic ministry. The Apostles were still alive while the church was gathering on the first day of the week. One example I did not include with the previous early church writing was from the Didache, the Teaching of the Twelves Apostles, dated as written in the first century. See below.

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day.
But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."

I have read the Didache to see if it holds up and I found a some errors within it. Here is a list of what I have found in the quick study I did of it.

Chapter 4:8 Says that when we give it is a ransom for our sins: Where does it say in scripture we are to give what we have as a ransom for our sins?

Chapter 4:11 Says we are not to say that anything is our own: Peter says that what we have is our own Acts 5:1-5

Chapter 4:19 Says we must go to Church to confess our sins: Where does it say in scripture that we must go to a building made with human hands to confess our sins?

Chapter 6:4-6 Says we are commanded to Abstain from eating food offered to Idols because by eating you are worshiping their false God's: But Paul says that eating food offered to Idols is not a sin to a man who believes. Quick study on that.

1 Cor 8- An Idol is not anything(1 Cor 8:1,4-6) and any food offered to idols is good to eat by a man who believes(1 Cor 8:1,4,7,10,11) it is only a sin to eat if it bring’s your brother who is weak in the faith to stumble(1 Cor 8:7,9-12). So long as a man believes and is strong in the faith then all meats/foods are good to eat, even if they are offered to Idols(1 Cor 8:1,6,8,13) for neither if we eat are we the better nor if we eat not are we the worse(1 Cor 8:8). It is only for our brother’s sake and conscience that we would not be able to eat any flesh/meat(1 Cor 8:11-13) not by any law(1 Cor 8:8-9).
1 Corinthians 10- It was only after the law of the Flesh that was by the Book of the Law were we not to eat food offered to Idols(1 Cor 10:18). Paul says that Idols are not anything at all(1 Cor 10:19). Paul says that all foods are lawful to eat(1 Cor 10:23) but not all things are expedient(that is to say good for him)(1 Cor 10:23). He says that food offered to idols means nothing(1 Cor 10:19), but only for Conscience sake are we not to eat(1 Corinthians 10:25,27,28), not for our conscience mind you but for that our brethren both Jew and Gentile(1 Cor 10:29,32). Because if after we have sanctified our food with thanksgiving(1 Cor 10:30) it bring our brother to sin(1 Cor 10:30,32,29,28), or it be evil spoken of (1 Cor 10:30) we do not glorify God(1 Cor 10:30,31). Everything we do should be done for God's Glory (1 Cor 10:30) and for the betterment of our brethren(1 Cor 10:24,32,33).


Chapter 7: Where are we commanded in Scripture to do these things and in this way?

Chapter 8:1-2 Says we are to limit the days we fast on: Scripture speaks of no such limitations.

Chapter 8:3-11 Says we are to say these specific words repetitively: Scripture says we are not to use prayers in vain repetitions Matt 6:7-12

Chapter 9: Says all Christians must partake of this: Scripture says that only those that judge themselves worthy and are in fact worthy may partake or else they eat and drink their own damnation 1 Cor 11:23-30

Ch 11:6-7 Says a man of God or Apostle may only stay one or two days before moving on: Where do we find this limitation in Scripture? How Long did the apostles stay in one place at a time?

Ch 11:10-11 Says we are not to test these people when they speak in the spirit: We are told to test all doctrines and spirits by God's word 1 John 4:1-3; 1 Thess 5:21;2 timothy 3:16-17; 2 Timiothy 2:15

Ch 11:14-15 "when he orders a table in the Spirit shall eat of it otherwise he is a false prophet" : Where in Scripture are we told this?

Ch 13:3-4 Says we are commanded to give the first fruit of our produce to the prophets: Where are we commanded to do this in the New Testament under grace?

Ch 13:6-7 Where are we commanded to not to speak to a neighbor who has wronged us?

After reading this I have found that it has many points which disagree with the bible and the already established word of God. That being the Case I cannot accept what is written within this Didache as the truth.

 

[Saint Steven]

I have read the Didache to see if it holds up and I found a some errors within it. Here is a list of what I have found in the quick study I did of it.

Chapter 4:8 Says that when we give it is a ransom for our sins: Where does it say in scripture we are to give what we have as a ransom for our sins?

Chapter 4:11 Says we are not to say that anything is our own: Peter says that what we have is our own Acts 5:1-5

Chapter 4:19 Says we must go to Church to confess our sins: Where does it say in scripture that we must go to a building made with human hands to confess our sins?

Chapter 6:4-6 Says we are commanded to Abstain from eating food offered to Idols because by eating you are worshiping their false God's: But Paul says that eating food offered to Idols is not a sin to a man who believes. Quick study on that.

1 Cor 8- An Idol is not anything(1 Cor 8:1,4-6) and any food offered to idols is good to eat by a man who believes(1 Cor 8:1,4,7,10,11) it is only a sin to eat if it bring’s your brother who is weak in the faith to stumble(1 Cor 8:7,9-12). So long as a man believes and is strong in the faith then all meats/foods are good to eat, even if they are offered to Idols(1 Cor 8:1,6,8,13) for neither if we eat are we the better nor if we eat not are we the worse(1 Cor 8:8). It is only for our brother’s sake and conscience that we would not be able to eat any flesh/meat(1 Cor 8:11-13) not by any law(1 Cor 8:8-9).
1 Corinthians 10- It was only after the law of the Flesh that was by the Book of the Law were we not to eat food offered to Idols(1 Cor 10:18). Paul says that Idols are not anything at all(1 Cor 10:19). Paul says that all foods are lawful to eat(1 Cor 10:23) but not all things are expedient(that is to say good for him)(1 Cor 10:23). He says that food offered to idols means nothing(1 Cor 10:19), but only for Conscience sake are we not to eat(1 Corinthians 10:25,27,28), not for our conscience mind you but for that our brethren both Jew and Gentile(1 Cor 10:29,32). Because if after we have sanctified our food with thanksgiving(1 Cor 10:30) it bring our brother to sin(1 Cor 10:30,32,29,28), or it be evil spoken of (1 Cor 10:30) we do not glorify God(1 Cor 10:30,31). Everything we do should be done for God's Glory (1 Cor 10:30) and for the betterment of our brethren(1 Cor 10:24,32,33).


Chapter 7: Where are we commanded in Scripture to do these things and in this way?

Chapter 8:1-2 Says we are to limit the days we fast on: Scripture speaks of no such limitations.

Chapter 8:3-11 Says we are to say these specific words repetitively: Scripture says we are not to use prayers in vain repetitions Matt 6:7-12

Chapter 9: Says all Christians must partake of this: Scripture says that only those that judge themselves worthy and are in fact worthy may partake or else they eat and drink their own damnation 1 Cor 11:23-30

Ch 11:6-7 Says a man of God or Apostle may only stay one or two days before moving on: Where do we find this limitation in Scripture? How Long did the apostles stay in one place at a time?

Ch 11:10-11 Says we are not to test these people when they speak in the spirit: We are told to test all doctrines and spirits by God's word 1 John 4:1-3; 1 Thess 5:21;2 timothy 3:16-17; 2 Timiothy 2:15

Ch 11:14-15 "when he orders a table in the Spirit shall eat of it otherwise he is a false prophet" : Where in Scripture are we told this?

Ch 13:3-4 Says we are commanded to give the first fruit of our produce to the prophets: Where are we commanded to do this in the New Testament under grace?

Ch 13:6-7 Where are we commanded to not to speak to a neighbor who has wronged us?

After reading this I have found that it has many points which disagree with the bible and the already established word of God. That being the Case I cannot accept what is written within this Didache as the truth.

Thanks for your detailed response.

I agree that there are problems with the Didache. This is why it was not included as part of the canon of scriptures. In fact, it wasn't even under consideration. I am not here to promote the Didache as a religious text. It is provided as a historical text, as a resource.

From that perspective it is only one of many historical texts that give us a window into that time period. What we see is a church that was gathering on the first day of the week, the Lord's Day. And it is written in the first century. Dated as early as 60 AD.

What this means is that the Catholic Church did not change the Sabbath to Sunday. Constantine did not change the Sabbath to Sunday. Canon XIII of the Laodicean Council did not change the Sabbath to Sunday. The first day of the week was always the day of worship for the church. The early Christian church was not a Sabbath-keeping church. Period.

 

[Saint Steven]

The topic originator is mocking my responses with "Funny" and "Optimistic" votes. Clearly nothing to do with my posts, which were neither funny nor optimistic.

The originator has not yet owned up to either his limiting of sources in the OP, or his violation his own rule in exploring the NT Greek study reference materials. A NT Greek Lexicon being an unbiblical source. No different than a dictionary, or historical record, as I am presenting here.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What this means is that the Catholic Church did not change the Sabbath to Sunday. Constantine did not change the Sabbath to Sunday. Canon XIII of the Laodicean Council did not change the Sabbath to Sunday. The first day of the week was always the day of worship for the church. The early Christian church was not a Sabbath-keeping church. Period.

Well this has no truth in it.

Let's test your claims against scripture...

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1-3; 14; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16-17; Mark 2:27). Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; 1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1-21; 1 Peter 2:20-22). If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4). Jesus knew that all the disciples would be keeping the Sabbath after his death *Matthew 24:20. Paul kept the Sabbath with both Jews and Gentile believers after Christs death *ACTS 13:14-15; 42-44; ACTS 16:13; ACTS 17:1-2; ACTS 18:4-5. Yep if you believe God's WORD Jesus and all the Apostles kept the Sabbath and so did the early Church *ACTS 18:4-5.

Ok there is a lot of scripture all showing Jesus and the Apostles and the early Church worshipping God on the Sabbath.

Now Question for you (It is ok I know you will ignore this question because you cannot answer it)...

*Where is the scripture that says God's 4th commandment has been ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

CONFESSIONS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

Sorry Steve, God's WORD disagrees with you. I am happy to provide historical references as well if you like just let me know but for the most part this OP is sola scriptura. Thanks for sharing your thoughts however, but only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

Hope this helps.