Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...

[KCfromNC]

I agree that people have the choice about what they wish to believe. But why should a Christian believer choose a religion which worships a god that is no god, and turn away from God who is there and communicates with him every day?

As I said, because it would be a very effective way to demonstrate that belief is actually a choice. Instead, though, you're giving us reasons you can't choose to believe something other than Christianity. Very peculiar.

 

[Nithavela]

@DogmaHunter But lets assume there is some truth to the story of the fall even if adam and eve didn't exist. If mans mistake was not to believe in God, and the only way to rectify that error is to have faith, then what if faith is the only way. What if you can't have your God model and have it be independently verifable because in such a circumstance you cant actually undo the sin that led us to this fallen world, which can only be undone through faith that "adam and eve" lacked.

Saying that the fall of the world can or will be undone by enough faith is unbiblical.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Not a claim, it is the truth. Atheists know God exists. There is no such thing as an Atheist.

LOL!

No, just no. It just isn't true to my experience of life.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

Why wouldn't you want to believe if it has positive benefits now and the only option of eternal happiness we have.

Perhaps you are capable of lying to yourself about reality, but I have a problem with self-deception.

You don't have any option of "eternal happiness" as far as I can tell. Saying that you do doesn't mean that you do.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Ken-1122]

What is the absolute standard of truth by which you believe you have determined this?

Because I know better than you or anybody else knows (even those who wrote the books that eventually became your Bible) what goes on in my head. So when you claim I actually believe in your God, but only pretend not to, and claim your words are backed up by the Bible, I know your claim is wrong.

 

[JoeP222w]

No, just no. It just isn't true to my experience of life.

So your ultimate authority is your experience. Do you see a problem when someone else's experience completely contradicts your own?

If you don't see a problem there, then you have no basis for truth, but some shifting, arbitrary, relativistic experience, and that is a world of absurdity.

 

[JoeP222w]

So when you claim I actually believe in your God, but only pretend not to, and claim your words are backed up by the Bible, I know your claim is wrong.

Could you be wrong about everything you know?

 

[holo]

Could you be wrong about everything you know?

Could you?

 

[JoeP222w]

Could you?

No. Because my ultimate authority is God, not myself. Truth comes from God, not within myself.

 

[Ken-1122]

Could you be wrong about everything you know?

I'd rather take my chances on you being wrong about everything you think you know about me.

 

[holo]

No. Because my ultimate authority is God, not myself. Truth comes from God, not within myself.

So it's impossible for you to be wrong about God, is that it?

The obvious next question would of course be "how do you know that the bible is God's word" or something like that, but I suspect the answer is some variation of "because it says so."

In any case, I guess you can see why that attitude makes any discussion impossible. You already know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God, right, so by definition you can't learn anything, only tell people what's true. Not by reasoning or logic or even arguments, but just because you know. Not only that, but everybody else already agrees with you, they're just lying... so no arguments, just statements, which kind of goes against the idea of, well, an online forum, but hey, why worry about man-made concepts like that?

With that attitude I'm just glad you're not a muslim, because then you'd already blown yourself up in the name of jihad.

 

[Ken-1122]

No. Because my ultimate authority is God, not myself. Truth comes from God, not within myself.

How do you know your idea of God is truth?

 

[jayem]

My authority is the word of God, not me.

No. Your authority is the word of men. The men who wrote the Bible. You've been convinced that it's some kind of divine and infallible supernatural revelation. And that's OK. Though I'm sure you don't think the same of the Koran, or the Sutras, or the Bhagavad Gita, or the Book of Mormon, or L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics. I suspect we can both agree these are all products of the human imagination. To me, the same applies to the Bible.

You're perfectly entitled to believe what you like. But have you ever really studied the Bible objectively? Meaning as an academic would study ancient scriptures like Egyptian hieroglyphs, and Sumerian cuneiforms? (Which predate the oldest Hebrew texts by 1000-2000 years.) Just like these very old writings, there is some historical fact in the Bible. But it's mixed in with a lot of fable, folklore, fallacy, and fabrication. Much of it should be taken metaphorically. Same goes for the gospel accounts in the NT, too. Here's a book written by Rev. John Spong, an Episcopal bishop. You probably won't agree with him, but it's interesting reading and may expand your horizons.

Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture by John Shelby Spong

 

[MoneyGuy]

A total rewrite of the facts of history and the nature of the universe.

None of which disprove a creator. In fact, I think they indicate a creator.

My opinion. You disagree. That’s fine.

 

[MoneyGuy]

Not a claim, it is the truth. Atheists know God exists. There is no such thing as an Atheist.

Seriously? You can’t really believe that nonsense?

 

[DogmaHunter]

@DogmaHunter But lets assume there is some truth to the story of the fall even if adam and eve didn't exist

Why would we assume that?

If mans mistake was not to believe in God, and the only way to rectify that error is to have faith, then what if faith is the only way.

What if Paris could fit in my pocket? Well, then Paris could fit in my pocket.
Or what if a table was really a chair? Well, then we'ld use the word "table" for chair.

You're making entirely meaningless statements here.

Yes, you are correct, if we assume that it is the case that X is true, then X is true in that hypothetical. What's the point of such an exercise?

What if you can't have your God model and have it be independently verifable

That's not actually a "what if". That's in fact how it is.
There is no god model that can be independently verified.

And when there is no such model, then there is no reason whatsoever to believe it.

The point.

because in such a circumstance you cant actually undo the sin that led us to this fallen world, which can only be undone through faith that "adam and eve" lacked.

What if there is an undetectable dragon about to eat you?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Could you be wrong about everything you know?

About everything? No.

 

[JoeP222w]

I'd rather take my chances on you being wrong about everything you think you know about me.

I don't know your exact details, but I know the nature of man, especially as you claim to have all knowledge by making an absolute claim that no god exists by claiming to be an atheist.

 

[JoeP222w]

So it's impossible for you to be wrong about God, is that it?

That is correct, because that truth is based in God, not me, as mentioned previously.

The obvious next question would of course be "how do you know that the bible is God's word" or something like that, but I suspect the answer is some variation of "because it says so."

If something is the absolute truth, it is not vicious circular reasoning to refer to itself. The Bible is not truth merely because it says so, but because it is God breathed scripture.

In any case, I guess you can see why that attitude makes any discussion impossible.

No, I don't see why, unless you require me to meet your standards that are based in you and not in the truth of God. And as you claim to be agnostic, where the traditional position is that you don't know that God exists, means that you have no foundation in truth.

You already know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God, right, so by definition you can't learn anything, only tell people what's true.

I never claimed to know all truth, never claimed to be omniscient. But we can know what God has revealed to us in His inerrant word of the Bible as truth. I know I still have much to learn, I never claimed I am unable to learn anything. And I can tell people what is true based on the authority of scripture, not my own authority.

Not by reasoning or logic or even arguments, but just because you know.

False statement. The truth of God can be shown by reasoning and logic and arguments, but it is not to meet your standards, as you are not the Judge. No human has the right to hold God on trial. And yes, by God's grace, I do know He is truth.

Not only that, but everybody else already agrees with you

Not true. I know that not everyone agrees with me, but they are suppressing the truth of God because they know that they are unrighteous before Him.

so no arguments, just statements, which kind of goes against the idea of, well, an online forum, but hey, why worry about man-made concepts like that?

Again, I do not have to prove God since you already know He exists, and you are not the standard of truth, so I don't play that game of providing evidence to the Atheist, Unbeliever or Agnostic. The proof of God is for those who have already humbled themselves before Him and do not demand that their Creator bow down before them the Creature.

With that attitude I'm just glad you're not a muslim, because then you'd already blown yourself up in the name of jihad.

You have no idea of my motivation. Love speaks truth. Love does not exalt man. Love exalts God the Creator. Despite what you may think you know, I don't hate you or any other Unbeliever, nor do I want you dead. I did not care about you or anyone else here, I would not even be on this forum.

 

[JoeP222w]

How do you know your idea of God is truth?

As I wrote, because God is truth. It is not my idea, it is what He has revealed to us through His creation and through His inerrant word of the Bible.