Why would a believer not get baptized?

[Dave-W]

No, I would say it is necessary for our salvation, according to scripture.

On that I disagree. It is commanded; but if you give a close reading of Matt 28.19 you will notice the command is to be carried out by the evangelist, and not the responsibility of the new believer.

"Baptize," not "be baptized."

God will not hang your salvation on some one else's responsibility.

Sir, the only one that matters for our salvation is to be immersed in water, buried, to come up a new creature, and be in Christ by our obedience to His gospel commands.

The vast majority of the NT is NOT about how to get saved; rather it is how to live AFTER you are saved. Water baptism comes under that heading.

Anything else is irrelevant, ie, Holy Spirit baptism like Acts 2 and Acts 10, just does not happen anymore, only happened twice, and has not happened since. Cornelius STILL had to be baptized in water.

How to walk as a believer is NOT "irrelevant."

And baptism in/of/with the Holy Spirit is only one of the other baptisms. (FYI, It DOES still happen today)

You still have 5 to go.

 

[Dave-W]

From the Christian POV, there is one baptism. The New Testament even says it that way--One Lord, One Faith,..and ONE BAPTISM.

That is a statement on Christian unity, NOT a doctrinal teaching on baptism.

 

[Dave-W]

I see little value in comparing mans wisdoms.....

My list ONLY comes from the New Covenant scriptures.

Man's wisdom????

 

[Albion]

That is a statement on Christian unity, NOT a doctrinal teaching on baptism.

I disagree as do most Christians. But that aside, the fact remains that all the other baptisms referred to in Scripture are called by that term only by way of analogy.

It is not as though the writer is saying to take any one of these seven so-called baptisms, as you prefer, an it will promote unity among us, just like the fact that we believe in whatever Lord we/you choose to follow unites us. That is obviously not the meaning of the verse. It doesn't even make sense. ​

 

[Dave-W]

Here is the list with scripture references:

1) Christian water baptism (Matt 28:19)

2) John's baptism (Matt 3, Mark 1)
obsolete and of no effect in the New Covenant (Acts 19)

3) Baptized in/to/into/with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2)

4) Baptism of fire (Matt 3.11, Luke 3.16)

5) Baptism of suffering (Mark 10.38)

6) Baptism into the body (1 Cor 12:13)

7) Baptism for the dead (1 Cor 15:29)

 

[Acts2:38]

On that I disagree. It is commanded; but if you give a close reading of Matt 28.19 you will notice the command is to be carried out by the evangelist, and not the responsibility of the new believer.

"Baptize," not "be baptized."

God will not hang your salvation on some one else's responsibility.

Sir, this is wrong. Might I point out Acts 17:30-31, then maybe even 2 Thess. 1:8-9.

Usually when someone repents, it is not that far away to confess and be baptized.

If you look at Galatians 3:27 you will notice that ONLY those who are baptized, have put on Christ.

Thanks for looking at this.

The vast majority of the NT is NOT about how to get saved; rather it is how to live AFTER you are saved. Water baptism comes under that heading.

Actually, the ENTIRE NT is how to get saved AND how to stay saved I suggest you look to this again since you missed the how to get saved part almost entirely it seems (just an observation/assumption).

How to walk as a believer is NOT "irrelevant."

And baptism in/of/with the Holy Spirit is only one of the other baptisms. (FYI, It DOES still happen today)

You still have 5 to go.

I agree, "how to walk or remain faithful" is not irrelevant.

That is not what I said, you misunderstood.

I said there is only ONE baptism Ephesians 4:4-6 and that is the only one that matters when pertaining to our salvation.

Holy Spirit baptism does not happen anymore. The bible only records 2 events, both of which gave miraculous gifts.

Do you see miraculous gifts now days?

Show them to me. I wish to see if anyone can heal the sick with a touch, raise the dead, and speak a language without prior study or knowledge of said language before.

I will be waiting until we both die since you can not show me these gifts.

Miracles ceased with the scriptures were completed with the book of revelation and John, the last apostle, death.

Miracles are only passed on by the laying of hands by APOSTLES. The only 2 occasions that laying of hands didnt happen is Acts 2 and Acts 10. You will not find any other.

 

[Dave-W]

I disagree as do most Christians. But that aside, the fact remains that all the other baptisms referred to in Scripture are called by that term only by way of analogy.

The word "baptize" was invented in English by the translators of the KJV. It was anglicized from the Greek "bapto" and "baptizo" meaning to dip, plunge, immerse or soak.

In each of these baptisms we are dipped, plunged or immersed into something; be it physical (water) or spiritual. So it is more than just an analogy.

 

[Albion]

NM

 

[Acts2:38]

This topic has strayed way off course. It was not a discussion of IF baptism was necessary, but a discussion on WHY would a believer NOT get baptized.

I will not indulge further off topic discussions. I appreciate everyone I have been talking to understanding in this. Thank you, and good day.

 

[Dave-W]

Actually, the ENTIRE NT is how to get saved

Wrong.

AND how to stay saved

Many of a calvinist stripe would say that once you are saved it is impossible to lose salvation. That is also wrong IMO. But you STAY saved by NOT denying or revoking the covenant. Salvation is by covenant.

I suggest you look to this again since you missed the how to get saved part almost entirely it seems (just an observation/assumption).

Erroneous observation.

I have seen several lists of specifics in both NT and OT on how to be saved. They take up less than 10% of the NT text.

 

[Dave-W]

This topic has strayed way off course. It was not a discussion of IF baptism was necessary, but a discussion on WHY would a believer NOT get baptized.

Indeed it has strayed.

The bottom line for me as to WHY a believer would not get baptized (Christian water baptism that is) is due to either incomplete teaching or erroneous teaching that makes baptism either unimportant or unnecessary.

 

[Albion]

The word "baptize" was invented in English by the translators of the KJV. It was anglicized from the Greek "bapto" and "baptizo" meaning to dip, plunge, immerse or soak.

In each of these baptisms we are dipped, plunged or immersed into something; be it physical (water) or spiritual. So it is more than just an analogy.

No, these others obviously do not describe any dipping or immersion except for the most fanciful sort of symbolic talk, and even then it is quite a stretch to say that we are washed into the "body" or dipped into fire, especially when the fire is also an analogy, etc.

What's more, Baptism is a sacrament, and so these others do not meet the definition of a sacrament for being without any physical element (like water in Baptism and bread and wine/juice in Communion).

 

[Dave-W]

even then it is quite a stretch to say that we are washed into the "body"

We get immersed into a local body by forming covenant relationships with fellow believers in your congregation. If you are a hand and your brother is a fore-arm, you CANNOT be separated from him without damaging you both.

dipped into fire,

In the bible, GOD's fire is a purging element of the Holy Spirit. It burns away flesh and sin. It is part of "sanctification."

 

[Albion]

In the bible, GOD's fire is a purging element of the Holy Spirit. It burns away flesh and sin. It is part of "sanctification."

There isn't any actual fire involved is there? No, you are referring to figurative speech. Likewise, calling this a "Baptism" is to use a metaphor not unlike Christ calling himself a vine.

Or this one:
Proverbs 13:14
"The teaching of the wise is a fountain of life."

 

[Dave-W]

There isn't any actual fire involved is there? No, you are referring to figurative speech.

Was It "figurative" when the angel touched Isaiah's lips with a burning coal? (Isa 6)

Or was it a REAL transaction in the spiritual realm?

 

[Jon Osterman]

Customarily, a Christening IS a Baptism. It is just a colloquialism to call it a Christening.

Yes, I agree. But I know quite a few who would disagree because the Christening is done without the person's consent, so is not an active welcoming in of the Holy Spirit.

If the church happens to be one that opposes the baptism of infants, there is often a ceremony that is called a Dedication which is not a sacrament or substitute for Baptism. Of course, I don't know for certain what the case was in the church of your youth.

Yes, again. My current church does this. In my parents' church it was a "proper" Christening though, and they didn't do adult baptisms.

 

[RaymondG]

Yes, maybe the PHD "master of law etc" needs to rethink his flawed doctrine because he is teaching you and others like you falsely.

Sounds like you are the one now with the PHd...and therefore will dismiss any sayings by those you deem not as educated as yourself....be it by schooling, "spirt", or your own carnal reasoning. You are right and everyone else is wrong. The same attribute as the ones you are describing as false teachers. Im not suggesting that you change or the other false teachers change....only that you have compassion on each other, as you both think alike and are both teaching what you feel is clear truth.....Both of you can be wrong, but, unfortunately, you both cant be right.

 

[Dave-W]

What's more, Baptism is a sacrament, and so these others do not meet the definition of a sacrament

Who said all baptisms need to be sacraments?

And I use it in the plural since the writer of Hebrews did also: Heb 6.1. "Baptisms" is in the plural and THEY are considered elementary or foundational to proper christian teaching.

 

[Dave-W]

These are the educations in milk.....and are very important.

"Milk" is defined in scripture: Hebrews 6.1-3.

 

[RaymondG]

My list ONLY comes from the New Covenant scriptures.

Man's wisdom????

When we read it, it is scripture....when we interpret it, it becomes Man's wisdom....