Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...

[DogmaHunter]

Has anyone ever reported Allah actually communicating with anyone? The Koran is the authoritative book concerning Allah, but there are no references of Allah actually communicating with the faithful. I wonder why that is so?

Judging other religions based on the standards or expectations of your own religion, is intellectually dishonest. It's like a viking saying that "jawhe isn't claimed to be smashing his hammer to create thunder. I wonder why that is so?". That's one.

Two, in Islam the idea is that Allah doesn't directly communicate with humans.

Surah Ash-Shuraa [42:51-53]

And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Judging other religions based on the standards or expectations of your own religion, is intellectually dishonest. It's like a viking saying that "jawhe isn't claimed to be smashing his hammer to create thunder. I wonder why that is so?". That's one.

Two, in Islam the idea is that Allah doesn't directly communicate with humans.

Surah Ash-Shuraa [42:51-53]

And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

I'm not judging Islam. I did a MDiv paper on Islam and Christianity, and gained a great understanding of the Muslim faith. I also had friends who are Muslim and they were only too happy to discuss their beliefs in a very mutually respectful way.

By the way, speaking of respect, in these exchanges you and other atheists have shown more respect than some fellow Christians on this forum, which is interesting.

But, all I intended in comparing the Koran with the Bible is that the latter has God directly communicating in person with men, while the Koran has Allah using the Prophet to communicate with men. That's all.

 

[holo]

I could choose to no longer believe, but why should I? If I believe that in Christ there is no other meaning to life and no hope for me in eternity, when why should I want to shoot myself in the foot for no reason?

That's what I just don't understand. I just can't see how it would be possible for me to just decide to believe in something I don't think is true. I mean, even if I wanted to, I couldn't in a million years make myself believe that the Earth is flat, for example.

If you have the power to choose what you believe, does it extend beyond religion? Could you decide to start believing that, say, you no longer live in New Zealand?

 

[holo]

I have said all this to show that the Bible is God's communication to mankind, and how He worked with groups of people throughout the pre-history of Israel and afterward. It is also the record of what Jesus said and did. Acts and the Epistles show what the Apostles did and said.

Assuming the texts are true. There are certainly enough contradictions in the bible, for example about the order of events. Which is to be expected if they're written by fallible humans.

The Bible is the only record that explains who the Living God is, and the only reliable account of who we are and where we came from.

Surely that's not true. There are loads of religous texts that claim to tell the truth about God.

But in any case, I saw you describe how you came to faith many years ago (in another thread, I think). It was because of a personal experience, right? Not because you had studied biblical history and figured out that it must be trustworthy?

I'm simply not in a position to tell one way or the other. If I am to believe (again), it must be because God chooses to reveal himself to me in a way that his existence is the only plausible explanation.

The promise is that if a person believes in their heart, and confesses with their mouth that God is real and that Jesus died for us on the cross, he or she will be saved, that is, given saving faith.

This looks circular to me: If you believe, God will give you faith.

 

[holo]

I could choose to no longer believe, but why should I? If I believe that in Christ there is no other meaning to life and no hope for me in eternity, when why should I want to shoot myself in the foot for no reason?

But then why don't you choose to believe for example that everybody will get saved no matter what? Wouldn't that be much more comfortable?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I'm not judging Islam. I did a MDiv paper on Islam and Christianity, and gained a great understanding of the Muslim faith. I also had friends who are Muslim and they were only too happy to discuss their beliefs in a very mutually respectful way.

By the way, speaking of respect, in these exchanges you and other atheists have shown more respect than some fellow Christians on this forum, which is interesting.

I always try to be respectfull. But I'll happily admit that sometimes, it is a hard thing to do.

I fully admit that "some" posters here, through their dishonesty and arrogance, make me want to rip my arm off, just so I'ld have something to throw at them...

But, all I intended in comparing the Koran with the Bible is that the latter has God directly communicating in person with men, while the Koran has Allah using the Prophet to communicate with men. That's all.

Okay.
I fail to see the point though.

I mean... who ever decided that god(s) should communicate directly with humans?
I also don't see, at all, how this would give christianity more credibility over islam or whatever.

Obviously Islam and Christianity will have such differences.... it's why they are different religions.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That's what I just don't understand. I just can't see how it would be possible for me to just decide to believe in something I don't think is true. I mean, even if I wanted to, I couldn't in a million years make myself believe that the Earth is flat, for example.

If you have the power to choose what you believe, does it extend beyond religion? Could you decide to start believing that, say, you no longer live in New Zealand?

I know, right..........

An example I like to use, is gravity.

If "belief" is nothing but a choice, then could anyone here claiming that, just decide that they could jump from the roof of a skyscraper and instead of plummeting to their death, actually just keep floating mid-air? And really believe it? To the point that they'ld actually have no problem to jump from said skyscraper, actually really believing that they won't be falling to earth?


Off course not!!

Anyone who says otherwise is either crazy or lying.

 

[DogmaHunter]

If I am to believe (again), it must be because God chooses to reveal himself to me in a way that his existence is the only plausible explanation.

I've wondered about that quite a few times....
What would convince me?

Sure, what you say sounds reasonable... I mean, if you experience it first hand, it doesn't get any better then that, right?

But then I start thinking..... there are many people today claiming such first hand experience. I'm not believing them either. And not because I think they lie. In fact I think they are very sincere about having said experience.

What I'm not buying is their explanation for said experience.
Considering the MANY known ways of how humans can be mistaken about the causal factors of events / experiences or the accuracy of their interpretations.... It seems infinitly more plausible that they are just mistaken, that the event in question was just a coincidence, that they were hallucinating, etc etc etc.

So... when it would happen to me.... assuming I don't loose my sanity or rational/skeptic mind in the process.... I think I'ld be more inclined to think that I must be mistaken. That my mind is playing tricks on me. Etc. That is, in case of "personal experience" - you know... like when nobody else is around to confirm it. When there is no way to test it or verify it, after the facts.

The logic / reasoning by which I dissmiss the explanation / interpretation of people claiming such experiences, would equally apply to my experience, right?

After all, I'm just a fallible human as well. I too have a faulty brain that is incredibly susceptible to desception. So if others can be mistaken - I can be too.

On top of that, MOST theists claiming such experience, must necessarily be mistaken.... Because they can't all be correct (since they follow mutually exclusive religions).

But.......... the CAN all be WRONG.
And considering they all make the same type of claims, chances are rather enormous that they indeed ARE all wrong.



So, it's a tough question. Normally I'ld just respond with "evidence that matches predictions of the proposed model". But you require a detailed and well-defined, and above all: testable/falsifiable, model for that. There's no such god-model. Every god-model I've ever been presented with, was not independently testable / verifiable / falsifiable. Ever.

So, I'm left with a simple one-liner:
"If an all powerfull, omnipotent, all intelligent God really exists... then surely he would know EXACTLY what would convince me. All he would have to do, is make that happen and then I'ld would believe".

 

[JoeP222w]

"Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if..."

Atheists do believe in God. The simply suppress the truth of God in their unrighteousness.

It improves their well being, their families well being, their friends well being, the environments well being?

Jesus is not an "enhancement" to your life to provide you with health, wealth and prosperity.

Because theres no question, even among atheists who were former
christians

No such person exists. Any claiming to no longer be a Christian is a liar. They never were a Christian, they never repented of their sin, never trusted in Jesus Christ, were never born again, never had a right relationship with Jesus, never submitted to Jesus as Lord.

even if someone is 100% certain God doesn't exist.

No such person exists. Refer to my first comment.

I believe that belief in God, being a christian does actually improve your well being.

In what sense are you saying this? Do you think believers in North Korea, China and Iraq believe this, while suffering immense persecution, even to the point of death?

 

[Nithavela]

So, I'm left with a simple one-liner:
"If an all powerfull, omnipotent, all intelligent God really exists... then surely he would know EXACTLY what would convince me. All he would have to do, is make that happen and then I'ld would believe".

That's a two-liner.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Atheists do believe in God. The simply suppress the truth of God in their unrighteousness.

Christians do believe in Thor and Odin. They simply suppress the truth of Whalhalla in their cowardice because they don't want to fight with honor on the battle field.


I can play that silly game too.

No such person exists. Any claiming to no longer be a Christian is a liar. They never were a Christian, they never repented of their sin, never trusted in Jesus Christ, were never born again, never had a right relationship with Jesus, never submitted to Jesus as Lord.

FYI: that's a violation of forum rules.

In what sense are you saying this? Do you think believers in North Korea, China and Iraq believe this, while suffering immense persecution, even to the point of death?

No. But I'm sure that citizens of North Korea agree that believing in the supernatural supremacy of Kim Jung Un and his family, helps them with their well being. In more obvious ways then the well-being being invoked in this thread, even.

 

[Nithavela]

"Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if..."

Atheists do believe in God. The simply suppress the truth of God in their unrighteousness.



Jesus is not an "enhancement" to your life to provide you with health, wealth and prosperity.



No such person exists. Any claiming to no longer be a Christian is a liar. They never were a Christian, they never repented of their sin, never trusted in Jesus Christ, were never born again, never had a right relationship with Jesus, never submitted to Jesus as Lord.



No such person exists. Refer to my first comment.



In what sense are you saying this? Do you think believers in North Korea, China and Iraq believe this, while suffering immense persecution, even to the point of death?

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[KCfromNC]

You have made your choice already. You choose to be an atheist. You also choose not to believe in anything that does not make any sense to you.

Personally, I'd be a lot more convinced if the people claiming that belief is a choice would demonstrate it rather than just claiming it. For example, they could choose to believe in Islam or Hinduism for 5 years. You know, just to make sure that it is really that easy to choose what to believe.

 

[JoeP222w]

Christians do believe in Thor and Odin. They simply suppress the truth of Whalhalla in their cowardice because they don't want to fight with honor on the battle field.

Is that true?

FYI: that's a violation of forum rules.

Ok. Nonetheless, it is true.

No. But I'm sure that citizens of North Korea agree that believing in the supernatural supremacy of Kim Jung Un and his family, helps them with their well being. In more obvious ways then the well-being being invoked in this thread, even.

Christianity is not about the "well being" of the creature, but rather the glory of the Creator.

 

[jayem]

Has anyone ever reported Allah actually communicating with anyone? The Koran is the authoritative book concerning Allah, but there are no references of Allah actually communicating with the faithful. I wonder why that is so?

Is communication from God your standard of religious legitimacy? If so then you should know that God--through the angel Moroni-- communicated a new revelation to Joseph Smith in 1823, inscribed on golden plates. And the Book of Mormon includes testimonies signed by 9 people who directly witnessed these plates. If communication from God to man is your standard of veracity, then you should consider that the LDS church has this documented under oath in it's scripture. So why aren't you a believer?

 

[MehGuy]

I don't know how you can wake up in the morning, smell the roses and think man this was one amazing accident.

I was born without a sense of smell, so I cannot smell the roses.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I was born without a sense of smell, so I cannot smell the roses.

You have feelings though.

 

[MehGuy]

You have feelings though.

Yeah, and I think I understand them well. Especially in regards to how they are not supernatural in origin.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is communication from God your standard of religious legitimacy? If so then you should know that God--through the angel Moroni-- communicated a new revelation to Joseph Smith in 1823, inscribed on golden plates. And the Book of Mormon includes testimonies signed by 9 people who directly witnessed these plates. If communication from God to man is your standard of veracity, then you should consider that the LDS church has this documented under oath in it's scripture. So why aren't you a believer?

The book of Mormon has large sections directly copied from the King James Version of the Bible. Also, there are no corresponding historical links with the events described in the Book of Mormon, while in the New Testament, the Roman emperors, governors, Jewish kings, regional officials are all real people, backed up by secular Roman historians. Also, described in the gospel are events in Israel also reported by the secular historian Josephus. The Book of Mormon cannot name any historical figure attached to its account of the lost tribe of Israel that has supposed to have migrated to North America.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Personally, I'd be a lot more convinced if the people claiming that belief is a choice would demonstrate it rather than just claiming it. For example, they could choose to believe in Islam or Hinduism for 5 years. You know, just to make sure that it is really that easy to choose what to believe.

I agree that people have the choice about what they wish to believe. But why should a Christian believer choose a religion which worships a god that is no god, and turn away from God who is there and communicates with him every day?