Kavanaugh - Renate Alumnius

[NotreDame]

None of it means they actually had relations with her - just that they were claiming to have done so. Even if they never laid a finger on her, it's still a pretty crude thing to do.

I've said some pretty crude things in my life. Though I've never falsely claimed to have bedded anyone, I'm sure some of the other guys in my senior class did at one time or another. But I don't recall anyone ever memorializing it, or any of our other crude in-jokes, in print like this. Maybe I just went to a better class of Catholic school.

That's a leap considering the ambiguous nature of the rhyme. It is not at all clear any of them are alleging or suggesting to have had sexual relations with Renate.

 

[iluvatar5150]

That's a leap considering the ambiguous nature of the rhyme. It is not at all clear any of them are alleging or suggesting to have had sexual relations with Renate.

Sure, yeah - by the standards required to legally convict someone, there's enough ambiguity there to establish doubt.

But when I see a bunch of boorish high school party dudes cracking jokes about being "alumni" of a girl and writing poems about how she's a cheap/easy date... You don't have to be a literary scholar to know what the heck they're talking about. It's not like these yearbook captions were deep, flowery prose laced with nuance and arcane references.

 

[Kentonio]

That's a leap considering the ambiguous nature of the rhyme. It is not at all clear any of them are alleging or suggesting to have had sexual relations with Renate.

I can't wait to hear the hilarious alternative explanation you clearly have in mind..

 

[NotreDame]

The issue is the spreading of rumors, not the finding someone to be attractive.

Well, if that is the issue, then none of us should be having such an asinine discussion about it. The dissemination of rumors about a person by a person in high school or of high school age is not sufficient to disqualify someone fom the

Again, spreading malicious rumours is not healthy, kind or respectful.

Indeed, but relate this to the broader issue of Kavanaugh’s nominations, that behavior, by a high school teenager, done approximately 35 years ago, isn’t sufficient to keep him off the bench. Neither is the conduct worthy of any serious dialogue.

The reason this arcane rhyme has any relevance at the moment is because people are looking for any evidence to indicate Kavanaugh was a womanizer, maybe even a promiscuous male, hoping to use that as evidence that he is therefore capable of committing what is being alleged about him. Thin.

At the moment, the ambiguous Renate rhyme, whose meaning is obscured from the public except for those boys involved, is not substantive.

 

[NotreDame]

I can't wait to hear the hilarious alternative explanation you clearly have in mind..

One boy involved already gave one, which was in the event they couldn’t or didn’t have a date for some formal school function, and it was getting late in the game to ask, that Renate would go. Apparently, according to one of the boys, she had gone to some school dances or other formal school function with all the boys involved.

Could the phrase mean something else? Yes. But it’s meaning is arcane.

 

[NotreDame]

Sure, yeah - by the standards required to legally convict someone, there's enough ambiguity there to establish doubt.

But when I see a bunch of boorish high school party dudes cracking jokes about being "alumni" of a girl and writing poems about how she's a cheap/easy date... You don't have to be a literary scholar to know what the heck they're talking about. It's not like these yearbook captions were deep, flowery prose laced with nuance and arcane references.

But you’ve imposed your own meaning onto the poem. Bravo on the circular argument.

The issue is whether the rhyme is about Renate being a “cheap/easy date.” You summarily concluding that the rhyme is about Renate as a cheap and easy date begs the question, it’s circular argument.

The rhyme is ambiguous. Your interpretation may or may not be accurate. It’s not at all clear or known that your interpretation is correct.

 

[Kentonio]

But you’ve imposed your own meaning onto the poem. Bravo on the circular argument.

The issue is whether the rhyme is about Renate being a “cheap/easy date.” You summarily concluding that the rhyme is about Renate as a cheap and easy date begs the question, it’s circular argument.

The rhyme is ambiguous. Your interpretation may or may not be accurate. It’s not at all clear or known that your interpretation is correct.

It's not ambigious in the slightest, and these attempts to put a non-sleazy spin on it are frankly embarrassing.

 

[whatbogsends]

Abstain from all appearance of evil. It looks like something that it's not. Even if I was best friends with a mans wife, I would not go to their house before her husband got home. Doesn't look right. No need for me to even be alone with her. Same could be said with me being a married man. Why go somewhere and hang around with a woman, or women alone? But if my wife is sitting there, who can say I'm seeing another women? Or suspect me in doing something wrong.

Secondly, women can lie as well. Or even misinterpret your intentions. So having another person there just helps.

I get what you are saying.

I think it's more that they question an alleged supposition of 4 years in high school over decades of service as a credible man.

I believe they should be charged and face an equal time in jail that the accused was facing if the accusation can be proven to be malice.

If you think there is anything subtle about me... you have got to be the only one. I make it a point to be as blunt as possible.

Maybe I misconveyed myself. I thought I pointed out I was talking about going to parties and the like. It almost appears that some are saying that because he went to a party or had sex in high school he cannot be anything of merit in life.

Rape is never ok. Ever.

I'm married. I also have plenty of female friends, or wives of husbands that i'm 100% comfortable being alone with, without having any fear whatsoever of any impropriety, allegation, or what have you arise from it. Why? Because when my friends become married, I become friends with their wives and we all treat each other with respect. Conversely, my wife has male friends, and husbands of her friends that I (and she) are 100% comfortable with her being alone with, for exactly the same reasons.

I find it very peculiar when a married man claims the can't be alone with women for fear of allegations of impropriety arising.

 

[iluvatar5150]

But you’ve imposed your own meaning onto the poem. Bravo on the circular argument.

Assuming an interpretation isn't making a circular argument. Making a circular argument would require that I use my conclusion to prove itself.

The issue is whether the rhyme is about Renate being a “cheap/easy date.”

Here's the rhyme again:

"You need a date / and it's getting late / so don't hesitate / to call Renate."

Tell me, counselor, what alternate interpretations can you read into this poem? Here are some I can think of:

Maybe Renate isn't the cheap/easy date. Maybe she's merely a purveyor of them - a madame, of sorts.

Or, maybe Renate is less madame and more broker or intermediary - a 1980s Tinder precursor, perhaps - negotiating and facilitating consensual transactions between two compatible parties who've both sought her services.

Or, maybe Renate is a kind, compassionate person, always willing to lend a listening ear and a comforting word to the hurting and downtrodden. Perhaps her reputation is as a healer, a source of quiet solace in times of lonely despair and desperation.

Or, maybe Renate was conducting some sort of social science research that involved documenting the dating struggles of her classmates who graciously supported her work by eagerly reporting their romantic status at regular intervals.

I suppose those are all plausible explanations, right?

You summarily concluding that the rhyme is about Renate as a cheap and easy date begs the question, it’s circular argument.

The rhyme is literally about Renate's ability to respond in some sort of useful way to a dating deficiency. There aren't a lot of places to go with that.

The rhyme is ambiguous. Your interpretation may or may not be accurate. It’s not at all clear or known that your interpretation is correct.

I'm quite aware of that. But I'm awaiting alternate interpretations with at least some air of plausibility. Do you have any?

 

[NotreDame]

It's not ambigious in the slightest, and these attempts to put a non-sleazy spin on it are frankly embarrassing.

So you say. If only the principle of thou declareth, therefore it is, was a true, you'd have an excellent rebuttal.

“You need a date / and it’s getting late / so don’t hesitate / to call Renate.”
​

The meaning is ambiguous. There are several plausible meanings.

 

[NotreDame]

"You need a date / and it's getting late / so don't hesitate / to call Renate."

Tell me, counselor, what alternate interpretations can you read into this poem? Here are some I can think of:

Maybe Renate isn't the cheap/easy date. Maybe she's merely a purveyor of them - a madame, of sorts.

Or, maybe Renate is less madame and more broker or intermediary - a 1980s Tinder precursor, perhaps - negotiating and facilitating consensual transactions between two compatible parties who've both sought her services.

Or, maybe Renate is a kind, compassionate person, always willing to lend a listening ear and a comforting word to the hurting and downtrodden. Perhaps her reputation is as a healer, a source of quiet solace in times of lonely despair and desperation.

Or, maybe Renate was conducting some sort of social science research that involved documenting the dating struggles of her classmates who graciously supported her work by eagerly reporting their romantic status at regular intervals.

I suppose those are all plausible explanations, right?



I'm quite aware of that. But I'm awaiting alternate interpretations with at least some air of plausibility. Do you have any?

Assuming an interpretation isn't making a circular argument. Making a circular argument would require that I use my conclusion to prove itself.

Nope. A circular argument is one in which your conclusion is a reason for the conclusion. The issue is the meaning of the poem. What does the poem mean? Your statement of, "But when I see a bunch of boorish high school party dudes cracking jokes about being "alumni" of a girl and writing poems about how she's a cheap/easy date," is a circular argument. You have essentially said, concluded, the poem is about Renate being a "cheap/easy date," and apparently this is because the poem means Renate is a "cheap/easy date." That's circular.

Tell me, counselor, what alternate interpretations can you read into this poem?

She never says no to a date. She likes to make out on a date (non-sexual). They have all taken her out on a date and made out with her (again, non-sexual). To name a few.

The rhyme is literally about Renate's ability to respond in some sort of useful way to a dating deficiency. There aren't a lot of places to go with that.

Were you there when the rhyme was written? Did you discuss the meaning of the rhyme with the author of the rhyme? Did you date Renate? Did you discuss dating her with the other boys who dated her? Did you discuss the meaning of the rhyme with the other boys?

Then despite you repeatedly concluding what the rhyme is "literally about," the meaning of the rhyme is unknown and ambiguous.

 

[LoAmmi]

She never says no to a date. She likes to make out on a date (non-sexual). They have all taken her out on a date and made out with her (again, non-sexual). To name a few.

So similar to "For a good time call"?

 

[szechuan]

LOL.

Brett the teenage virgin Kavanaugh is WINNING!

 

[eleos1954]

And in today's episode of "What Did Judge Kavanaugh Do Now?":

Kavanaugh’s Yearbook Page Is ‘Horrible, Hurtful’ to a Woman It Named

One of the captions on ol' Brett's yearbook photo is "Renate Alumnius". Elsewhere throughout the yearbook are other variations on that theme, such as "Renate Alumnus" - all suggesting that the fine upstanding young men featured in the associated photos had some sort of.. er... relationship with a certain classmate, one Renate Schroeder Dolphin. So fond of her allegedly accommodating nature were they that another student even penned a poem in her honor:

“You need a date
And it’s getting late
So don’t hesitate
To call Renate.”

From the "article"

Bill Barbot, who was a freshman at Georgetown Prep when Judge Kavanaugh was a senior, said Judge Kavanaugh and his clique were part of the school’s “fratty” culture. “There was a lot of talk and presumably a lot of action about sexual conquest with girls,” Mr. Barbot said.

In the article there is more about the football players, him pictured with the football players etc.

So, are we to pre-judge people based on "talk", accusations and presumptions? ... guilt by association or are people innocent until proven guilty. Not to mention Marylands Statue of limitations (which in this case has expired), which like it or not is Marylands State law, so there is no criminal case. What good are laws if they are not followed? If laws need to be changed .... then there are processes to do that.

Should character be put on trial, can it be used as evidence? Our court system says no.

Character Evidence. Character is a general quality usually attributed to a person. Under criminal law, character evidence cannot be used in court to show that the person acted on a particular occasion in conformity with a particular character trait.

So what is really "on trial" here? Character

I'm I saying this didn't happen? No We don't know and likely never will and that being the case ..... character (innocent) ..... criminal (innocent) ... innocent until proven otherwise within statue of limitations.

So ..... women LEARN from this ..... report unwanted behavior when it happens or as soon as possible after it happens.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Nope. A circular argument is one in which your conclusion is a reason for the conclusion. The issue is the meaning of the poem. What does the poem mean? Your statement of, "But when I see a bunch of boorish high school party dudes cracking jokes about being "alumni" of a girl and writing poems about how she's a cheap/easy date," is a circular argument. You have essentially said, concluded, the poem is about Renate being a "cheap/easy date," and apparently this is because the poem means Renate is a "cheap/easy date." That's circular.

You've accurately summarized my conclusion, but not my justification for it. To be honest, I don't quite understand how you can misinterpret my justification that badly. Is it deliberate? Are you just overtaken with emotion?

The poem is directed at an individual (presumably a man) finding himself without a date and without much time in which to find one. The author proposes that a call to Renate will provide a swift resolution to that predicament, though doesn't describe precisely how Renate will fix the situation.

I justify my conclusion that this portrays Renate as a "cheap/easy" date because I struggle to explain the "how" of this poem in a manner that doesn't portray Renate as cheap and easy and also doesn't strain credulity.

She never says no to a date. She likes to make out on a date (non-sexual). They have all taken her out on a date and made out with her (again, non-sexual). To name a few.

I would argue that those would all fall under the banner of "cheap/easy".

Were you there when the rhyme was written? Did you discuss the meaning of the rhyme with the author of the rhyme? Did you date Renate? Did you discuss dating her with the other boys who dated her? Did you discuss the meaning of the rhyme with the other boys?

No, I just took a couple Lit classes. And I can read.

Then despite you repeatedly concluding what the rhyme is "literally about," the meaning of the rhyme is unknown and ambiguous.

That we don't know the precise meaning doesn't mean we can't narrow it down to a plausible range of meanings.

 

[Sistrin]

I find it very peculiar when a married man claims the can't be alone with women for fear of allegations of impropriety arising.

If we lived in Equestria I could fully support your point. However the world we actually live in is full of people only too willing to do whatever is necessary to take or destroy whatever someone else has often for no other reason than the sick sense of accomplishment they get from having done so.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

What does any of this even matter? We've had plenty of womanizing Presidents, why not womanizing Supreme Court Justices?

 

[LoAmmi]

From the "article"

Bill Barbot, who was a freshman at Georgetown Prep when Judge Kavanaugh was a senior, said Judge Kavanaugh and his clique were part of the school’s “fratty” culture. “There was a lot of talk and presumably a lot of action about sexual conquest with girls,” Mr. Barbot said.

In the article there is more about the football players, him pictured with the football players etc.

So, are we to pre-judge people based on "talk", accusations and presumptions? ... guilt by association or are people innocent until proven guilty. Not to mention Marylands Statue of limitations (which in this case has expired), which like it or not is Marylands State law, so there is no criminal case. What good are laws if they are not followed? If laws need to be changed .... then there are processes to do that.

Should character be put on trial, can it be used as evidence? Our court system says no.

Character Evidence. Character is a general quality usually attributed to a person. Under criminal law, character evidence cannot be used in court to show that the person acted on a particular occasion in conformity with a particular character trait.

So what is really "on trial" here? Character

I'm I saying this didn't happen? No We don't know and likely never will and that being the case ..... character (innocent) ..... criminal (innocent) ... innocent until proven otherwise within statue of limitations.

So ..... women LEARN from this ..... report unwanted behavior when it happens or as soon as possible after it happens.

He's being considered for the Supreme Court. He is not under criminal investigation. The character of a potential Justice is fair game for Senators to use when making their determination.

 

[NotreDame]

So similar to "For a good time call"?

That's your interpretation but your interpretation may not accurately reflect the meaning of the rhyme. Indeed, the content of the rhyme is not necessarily similar to the phrase "for a good time, call."

 

[LoAmmi]

That's your interpretation but your interpretation may not accurately reflect the meaning of the rhyme. Indeed, the content of the rhyme is not necessarily similar to the phrase "for a good time, call."

It probably means that she's a sweet girl, you should buy her chocolate and flowers, and she wants to be home by 8 because she's a good girl who never does anything unbecoming of a lady!