Kavanaugh - Renate Alumnius

[Go Braves]

1) Not by all accounts. But that's cool that you can choose what you mean by "all accounts".

Certainly correct on that. By the account of somebody who actually lived with Kavanaugh, he was known for being belligerent & sexually aggressive when drunk, which was more often than typical even accounting for that era. He makes it clear he didn't witness what Kavanaugh's second abuser described while they were all at Yale, but he absolutely believes he's capable of that sort of sick behavior & supports her.

San Mateo CEO, a former Kavanaugh roommate at Yale, supports second accuser

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

On the plus side... I'm really starting to like this new sexually liberal Republican Party. Welcome to the 21st century.

Well, even Jerry Fallwell (Sr.) is looking rather sexually liberal compared to many Dems today...

...the idea that the qualifications of a Supreme Court Justice nominee would be judged, not by his record on the bench, but on his high school yearbook is beyond parody.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Secondly, women can lie as well. Or even misinterpret your intentions. So having another person there just helps.

I believe they should be charged and face an equal time in jail that the accused was facing if the accusation can be proven to be malice.

They aren't though...in fact, it's pretty rare that women making false allegations even get charged. I actually don't think that a woman should necessarily face the same sentence if there's evidence she lied...a lie could be simply remembering an incident wrongly, or as you said "misunderstanding" the situation. It's already a difficult process for women to go forward with rape or sexual assault allegations...we don't want to discourage them out of fear that they'll be thrown in jail.

The one exception I have are these cases where it's learned during the investigation that the accuser clearly knew they were making false allegations. You've got women these days accusing men of rape...only to back off that accusation when a detective shows them texts they sent to the "rapist" talking about "what a great time they had" after the alleged incident.

In those cases, yes, those women should serve a sentence that the man they accused would have had to serve.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Is it that boorish? I don't know what kind of high school you went to, but mine was a lot worse than that. If we judged people by what they wrote in yearbooks...you'd think that about half of my high school class was in prison

If the yearbook were the only thing, I wouldn’t care as much. But in the context of the other allegations, it’s one more thing on the list.

That said, I don't see the validity. We were all teenagers once....and while it may not have necessarily been our views on women that were immature, surely we all had immature attitudes/beliefs about some things. I know that I'm very different from who I was in high school...it's pretty ridiculous to imagine that anyone isn't. I'm also willing to admit that the person I was back then would certainly be characterized poorly by just about anyone who knew me. I'm not really ashamed of it though...because I was a teenager in high school.

There are a number of fields where your behavior and performance in the early years make an outsized impact on the whole of your career. Sports and the performing arts immediately come to mind but i’m sure there are others. If you haven’t started playing hockey or piano seriously by age 8 or 10, your chances of playing at a high level as an adult are probably slim.

Given how exceedingly rare scotus justices are, even by the highly selective standards of sports and music, I’m okay with them being subjected to similar levels of scrutiny.

Saying something like that makes one think that this really has more to do with the fact that you think he's "entitled" and "rich". Lately, those words are a bit of a dog whistle on the left....so let's be clear...

If the nominee were a black female with liberal views who was coming from a poor background....you'd be just as concerned, right? You'd think that dragging up comments she made about boys that could be considered sexist as equally valid and disqualifying...right?

For me, the “rich entitled “ thing is something of a multiplier. I don’t like the alleged actions, period, regardless of who committed them. That they come from someone who grew up rich and entitled makes them a bit worse. That he hasn’t even (afaik) expressed any sort of regret or embarrassment over being a lush makes it a bit worse again. As a total package, it smacks of someone who hasn’t had to face much in the way of consequences for his actions.

Ahhh....ok....and they didn't?

My understanding is the it’s mostly bluster.

 

[LostMarbels]

They aren't though...in fact, it's pretty rare that women making false allegations even get charged. I actually don't think that a woman should necessarily face the same sentence if there's evidence she lied...a lie could be simply remembering an incident wrongly, or as you said "misunderstanding" the situation. It's already a difficult process for women to go forward with rape or sexual assault allegations...we don't want to discourage them out of fear that they'll be thrown in jail.

I would agree with the burden of proof to substantiate malice. Malice is a legal term referring to a party's intention to do injury to another party. Malice is either expressed or implied. A wrongful intention, especially as increasing the guilt of certain alleged offenses. To that end I believe if it could be proven that the accusations are false, were concocted for nefarious reasons, voted on by jury, and ruled on by judge that woman should face their victims fraudulent sentence.

The one exception I have are these cases where it's learned during the investigation that the accuser clearly knew they were making false allegations. You've got women these days accusing men of rape...only to back off that accusation when a detective shows them texts they sent to the "rapist" talking about "what a great time they had" after the alleged incident.

In those cases, yes, those women should serve a sentence that the man they accused would have had to serve.

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. If you can prove it is a lie they should face the accused's shame, ridicule and sentence.

 

[Tanj]

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. If you can prove it is a lie they should face the accused's shame, ridicule and sentence.

You are the guy that posts stuff about the evils of paedophilia, right? Should malicious children also face this punishment? How do you feel about defense attorneys letting children know that if they are found out to be lying they are going to jail?

 

[LostMarbels]

I understand the "it doesn't look right". But ultimately then, you are allowing the very busybodies and gossips that say terrible things to have power. Personally, I can't abide by that. I don't think simply being in the presence of another woman is "appearing evil". I mean, I'm not in a position where I have a female friend with whom I would hang out at long ends just the two of us so perhaps its just not on my radar.

100%

I don't realy care too much about how people veiw me. I care about how my actions make others veiw my wife and how she views our relationship. It is wise to show respect to the women in your life. Your Mother, Daughters, and Wife. A daughter learns how they should be treated by men by watching their Dad honor their mother. A wife gains trust by their husbands faithfulness, and a mother is happily content seeing what kind of man their child has become. I guess for me.... I dont need others. I have them.

 

[LostMarbels]

You are the guy that posts stuff about the evils of paedophilia, right? Should malicious children also face this punishment? How do you feel about defense attorneys letting children know that if they are found out to be lying they are going to jail?

You realize there is a whole group of us having a good conversation and you just throw in the monkey wrench.

Age of consent. Age of culpability. Implied or coerced consent. The laws are already there to stop your twisted reality.

And yes, I cannot stand pedophilia. Bad thing?

 

[Ana the Ist]

If the yearbook were the only thing, I wouldn’t care as much. But in the context of the other allegations, it’s one more thing on the list.

If there were no allegations against him, would you dismiss the yearbook stuff as irrelevant?

There are a number of fields where your behavior and performance in the early years make an outsized impact on the whole of your career. Sports and the performing arts immediately come to mind but i’m sure there are others. If you haven’t started playing hockey or piano seriously by age 8 or 10, your chances of playing at a high level as an adult are probably slim.

I thought you were joking about the sports analogy...you are aware that many professional athletes committed felonies after their careers began and still continued playing as professionals, right?

Given how exceedingly rare scotus justices are, even by the highly selective standards of sports and music, I’m okay with them being subjected to similar levels of scrutiny.

They aren't though...if they were, there would be a huge number of NFL players no longer playing. I mean, if teen sexual bragging is enough to disqualify Kavanaugh...then surely you think all these players charged with domestic violence, dog fighting, assault, illegal weapons charges....and who knows what else, should no longer be playing....right?

For me, the “rich entitled “ thing is something of a multiplier. I don’t like the alleged actions, period, regardless of who committed them. That they come from someone who grew up rich and entitled makes them a bit worse. That he hasn’t even (afaik) expressed any sort of regret or embarrassment over being a lush makes it a bit worse again.

Well he is denying these allegations, isn't he? It wouldn't make sense to apologize for them.

As a total package, it smacks of someone who hasn’t had to face much in the way of consequences for his actions.

So he's held to a different standard because he has wealth?

My understanding is the it’s mostly bluster.

Obviously, it's not admirable behavior either way...but its more understandable in my mind if they did have relations. I knew girls in high school who bragged about exploits.

 

[Tanj]

You realize there is a whole group of us having a good conversation and you just throw in the monkey wrench.

No, I was highlighting moral tension.

Age of consent. Age of culpability. Implied or coerced consent. The laws are already there to stop your twisted reality.

I understand there's laws against underage sex. Wasn't my question. What I asked was what is an appropriate penalty for a malicious minor that falsely accuses?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I would agree with the burden of proof to substantiate malice. Malice is a legal term referring to a party's intention to do injury to another party. Malice is either expressed or implied. A wrongful intention, especially as increasing the guilt of certain alleged offenses. To that end I believe if it could be proven that the accusations are false, were concocted for nefarious reasons, voted on by jury, and ruled on by judge that woman should face their victims fraudulent sentence.

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. If you can prove it is a lie they should face the accused's shame, ridicule and sentence.

I understand, I simply wouldn't tie it to malice. There was a recent case that's a good example why. Girl decides to have sex with two football players at once during a party. Her boyfriend finds out, so she claims she was raped. The two players were exonerated, but any decent lawyer could argue that she simply was trying to avoid losing her boyfriend...instead of being motivated by hurting the two players.

She knew she was lying though...so in my eyes, she should definitely face the penalty they faced.

 

[LostMarbels]

I understand, I simply wouldn't tie it to malice. There was a recent case that's a good example why. Girl decides to have sex with two football players at once during a party. Her boyfriend finds out, so she claims she was raped. The two players were exonerated, but any decent lawyer could argue that she simply was trying to avoid losing her boyfriend...instead of being motivated by hurting the two players.

She knew she was lying though...so in my eyes, she should definitely face the penalty they faced.

Excellent point. I do however agree with due process. If she gets off the hook by having a good lawyer unfortunately/fortunately that is our process. If a jury of her peers finds her innocent then I would stand by that judgement.

I'm not big on minimum mandatories. To much pressure to condemn instead of rehabilitate.

 

[LostMarbels]

I understand there's laws against underage sex. Wasn't my question. What I asked was what is an appropriate penalty for a malicious minor that falsely accuses?

I guess you would have to understand the terms I responded with.

Age of consent. 16. No child under the age of 16 can give consent even to another minor.

Age of culpability. 18. At 18 you are fully liable to the law and responsible for your actions as an adult. No child under 18 can give consent to an 18 year old. some states have provisions that include consent to 13-19 engaging in consensual sexual intercourse. Romeo act/law. At 21 there are no provisions, and no minor under the age of 18 can give consent.

Express consent is permission for something that is given specifically

Implied consent, is consent which is not expressly granted by a person, but rather implicitly granted by a person's actions and the facts and circumstances of a particular situation.

Coerced consent, date rape, guilt, shamming, verbally worn down, enticed until forced arousal overrides the ability to stop physical reactions.

If a girl is 16 and sneaks into a club that you need to be 18 to get into for example, she does so knowing it is illegal for an 18 year old to engage in sex with her, but does so anyways... then says it was rape when Daddy finds out. That girl should be accountable. She would be facing 15 years in prison. 15 years on probation, up to a $10,000 fine and lifelong registering as a sex offender. The exact same charge for raping a minor in Florida that her victim was facing.

Its called "equality" under the law.

 

[Tanj]

If a girl is 16 and sneaks into a club that you need to be 18 to get into for example, she does so knowing it is illegal for an 18 year old to engage in sex with her, but does so anyways... then says it was rape when Daddy finds out. That girl should be accountable. She would be facing 15 years in prison. 15 years on probation, up to a $10,000 fine and lifelong registering as a sex offender. The exact same charge for raping a minor in Florida that her victim was facing.

Its called "equality" under the law.

Alrighty, and if she's 6 instead of 16?

 

[Kentonio]

If a girl is 16 and sneaks into a club that you need to be 18 to get into for example, she does so knowing it is illegal for an 18 year old to engage in sex with her, but does so anyways... then says it was rape when Daddy finds out. That girl should be accountable. She would be facing 15 years in prison. 15 years on probation, up to a $10,000 fine and lifelong registering as a sex offender. The exact same charge for raping a minor in Florida that her victim was facing.

Its called "equality" under the law.

You want to lock up a 16 year old girl for 15 years for being stupid and scared? Wow..

 

[LostMarbels]

Alrighty, and if she's 6 instead of 16?

Death. Take the guy out back. Throw him in a hole. Don't care. No 6 year old knows anything about sex unless previously abused by some sicko.

 

[LostMarbels]

You want to lock up a 16 year old girl for 15 years for being stupid and scared? Wow..

This is the problem I have. No on cares about the man that is about to have his entire life destroyed by one lie, and by a child that should not even be in that club in the first place. No 16 year old girl doesn't know the boy can get in trouble. No one sees it that way. Oh she was stupid and scared. What do you think an innocent 18 year old is thinking in handcuffs. Ripped from everyone he loves and thrown into jail? Think it is fun? Whooops, my bad. You nearly lost your entire life but we good right?

 

[LostMarbels]

It is only a hypothetical and it is extreme. Because I hope people see how harmful false rape allegations realy are. no one blinks an eye that the man faces 15 years in prison. But the girl, man give her a pass. This 18 year old kid would be a grown man the age of 33 when he gets out over a lie. He will be 48 by the time he gets off probation over a lie. What do you think that will do to his life? Gone... down the toilet.

Why dont people understand how harmful these false allegations are?

 

[iluvatar5150]

If there were no allegations against him, would you dismiss the yearbook stuff as irrelevant?

Not entirely, but I'd be more willing to overlook it.

I thought you were joking about the sports analogy...you are aware that many professional athletes committed felonies after their careers began and still continued playing as professionals, right?


They aren't though...if they were, there would be a huge number of NFL players no longer playing. I mean, if teen sexual bragging is enough to disqualify Kavanaugh...then surely you think all these players charged with domestic violence, dog fighting, assault, illegal weapons charges....and who knows what else, should no longer be playing....right?

What I was getting at with the sports analogy is that our childhoods aren't entirely irrelevant, particularly in fields that have extremely competitive job markets. Yes, football players do tend to get away with certain things, and that's not good - but they don't get away with skipping practice or losing games. They are held accountable as adults for at least some things they did as kids.

Well he is denying these allegations, isn't he? It wouldn't make sense to apologize for them.

He's denying the ones related to sexual misconduct. I'm not sure whether or not he's denying the excessive partying - I didn't think he was, but his Fox interview has me wondering if he's heading in that direction.

What I meant was expressing regret over partying too much. Maybe it's just me, but I'm kind of embarrassed when I wind up spending the night shivering on the floor of a friend's bathroom or when I wake up in the morning and realize I probably shouldn't have driven home the night before.

So he's held to a different standard because he has wealth?

It's more than just "wealth". It's a lifetime of privilege and (at least as far as I perceive) non-accountability informing decisions that will impact the least of us.

 

[Kentonio]

This is the problem I have. No on cares about the man that is about to have his entire life destroyed by one lie, and by a child that should not even be in that club in the first place. No 16 year old girl doesn't know the boy can get in trouble. No one sees it that way. Oh she was stupid and scared. What do you think an innocent 18 year old is thinking in handcuffs. Ripped from everyone he loves and thrown into jail? Think it is fun? Whooops, my bad. You nearly lost your entire life but we good right?

Why do you leap from one extreme to another? The whole point about these cases are that they're usually very complicated and require careful handling and delicacy, not some heavy handed 'one size fits all' approach.

Does a 16 year old understand something is bad and there could be serious consequences? Quite possibly. Can a 16 year old actually comprehend the devastating impact a false accusation could have on an adult male, including the effect on their families, friends, career etc? Very likely not. That's without even touching on the extremely sensitive issues that often lead kids to making false accusations such as previous traumas or psychological issues.

None of that means we shouldn't care about the man. I'm a man, you think I want to face something like that, despite being completely innocent? But to protect men, doesn't mean we have to throw kids into prison for 15 years as some kind of supposed deterrent to others, despite the simple fact that kids are generally irresponsible anyway, and a deterrent like that wouldn't be likely to make any difference anyway.

Consequences for bad behaviour is one thing, but this medieval 'lock em up!' stuff just contributes to you already having the highest percentage of people on the planet incarcerated.