Are our churches failing at properly teaching Christology?

ViaCrucis

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We need the Word of God and the Spirit of God.

Sure, people can help explain things.. I dont discount human teaching but it doesn't take the place of the Spirit of God, nor of the Word of God.

The question is, then, where do we find the Word and the Spirit? The Christian answer to that has always been the Church. The Church is where the Word is preached, the Church is where the Spirit moves and is active.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hazelelponi

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The question is, then, where do we find the Word and the Spirit? The Christian answer to that has always been the Church. The Church is where the Word is preached, the Church is where the Spirit moves and is active.

-CryptoLutheran

What I meant my "People explaining things" is creeds..

We need more than creeds. Your creeds didn't bring me to Christ. Creeds didn't help me to understand Christ.

If for creeds I would still be Muslim.
 
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ViaCrucis

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What I meant my "People explaining things" is creeds..

We need more than creeds. Your creeds didn't bring me to Christ. Creeds didn't help me to understand Christ.

Presumably someone taught you about God, about Christ, about what Christ did. Presumably at some point you were taught to believe in one God, that God made heaven and earth, that Jesus is the Christ, our Lord, the Son of God, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, buried, risen from the dead, ascended, and coming again. Somehow, someway, you were taught these things.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hazelelponi

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Presumably someone taught you about God, about Christ, about what Christ did. Presumably at some point you were taught to believe in one God, that God made heaven and earth, that Jesus is the Christ, our Lord, the Son of God, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, buried, risen from the dead, ascended, and coming again. Somehow, someway, you were taught these things.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes.. But your creeds didnt.
 
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dzheremi

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"And how can one preach if he has not been sent?"

Good question.

St. Mark was sent to the Egyptians, and he founded upon his preaching the risen Lord our God Jesus Christ my Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church, which for centuries afterwards was the Church of all the Christians in Egypt. (Only later did the Greeks split off according to the minority position in Egypt, with their acceptance of Chalcedon which the native Egyptian bishops and a good number of others did not accept.)

St. Peter and St. Paul were sent to Antioch, where they founded those churches who trace their origins back to Antioch (the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Antiochian Greek Orthodox, the Syriac Maronites and other Syriac Catholics, except for the Chaldeans and the Syro-Malabar, who both have their origins in the preaching of St. Thaddeus in Mesopotamia, as the Nestorians also do).

St. Thaddeus (Addai in Syriac) was sent to Mesopotamia, where together with one Mar Mari (I'm not sure if he corresponds to any saint known in the West or not), he founded the Church in that country, which split off in many different directions following Ephesus in 431, with the bulk adhering to the Christology of Nestorius (those who make up the "Church of the East", sometimes also known as the Persian Church, or according to their detractors like me, the Nestorians), and a minority adhering to the Orthodox position (the Syriac Orthodox, historically very evident in the area that is now known as Tikrit -- infamous as the birthplace of Saddam Hussein -- with 8th and 9th century theologians like Abu Rai'ta al-Takriti, Quriyaqos of Tagrit, and Anthony of Tagrit being some of the finest Syrian theologians of the era; Abu Rai'ta wrote a famous defense of Christianity addressed to the new Muslims in his Risala in the 9th century), as it remains today in that country. The only difference is there is now (since the 16th century) also Syriac and Chaldean Catholics, born of later schisms from these larger bodies (the Syriac Catholics from the Syriac Orthodox, and the Chaldeans from the Church of the East).

St. Thomas was sent to India, where he established the Church in 52 AD. Now there are many different Christian sects, but historically the main ones have been the Syriac Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox (essentially the same as the Syriac Orthodox, but autocephalous from the mother Church in the Middle East), and the Church of the East (very few in number these days, but very important historically). All of the Catholics -- most of whom are now Latinized in their worship following historical events like the Synod of Diamper (1599) -- descend from one or another of these groups: the Syro-Malabar from the CoE, the Syro-Malankara from the Malankara Orthodox, etc. There are also Protestants in the Mar Thoma Church (essentially Anglicanism with a Syriac veneer; very unique in that regard!), the Church of North India (Anglicanism as well, but this time without the Syriac because it's North India, rather than South India where Syriac Christianity already predominated by the time Anglican missionaries got there), etc.

St. Bartholomew and St. Thaddeus went to Armenia, where they established the Armenian Apostolic Church there.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church in one way or another dates back to the first century, as Ethiopians were early recipients of the Gospel (as attested to in the Bible itself, as we know), but in terms of their establishment as a Church date to the beginning of the fourth century with the acceptance of Christianity by King 'Ezana, who was tutored in his youth by the Syro-Greek Christian Frumentius, who became the country's first bishop. (Bishops were since that time sent from Egypt, as Egypt is recognized as the first Christian Church of Africa, hence when they needed bishops they requested them of Egypt, rather than another place.)

The Syriac Christian tradition is basically as old as Christianity itself, so it was less a matter of specific missionaries being sent to them (though there is the tradition of St. Thaddeus delivering the icon of Christ to King Abgar V, the first Christian king in the world, King of Osroene in Upper Mesopotamia in the first century AD), and more that they were just the people who were around (together with the Greeks, Arabs, and others specifically mentioned in the Scriptures) when the Gospel was originally being preached. Their keeping of the earliest extant anaphora (that of St. James, the Brother of the Lord) as their basic anaphora -- as in the Syriac Orthodox tradition -- attests to this. It is known that our Lord and his apostles spoke Aramaic, which is the parent language of the Classical Syriac that is still used in the liturgy, and of the modern Neo-Aramaic languages still spoken by many Syriac Orthodox (Suryoyo -- in Iraq, Turkey, Syria, etc.), Chaldeans (in Iraq and Iran), Nestorians (in Iraq and Iran), and others.

I think that covers just about everyone. The Greek traditions should be obvious as Greek was the overarching superstratum culture of the entire East at the time, so of course the early dates and apostolic foundations of the churches of Greece, Cyprus, and the other places mentioned in the Bible itself is not really debatable. We can say similarly about the origins of Rome, however disputed its place as a See may be as a result of subsequent events (*cough*).

So what is all this about not being sent?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes.. But your creeds didnt.

Maybe you didn't know what you were being taught was from the Creeds, but it is. The historic Creeds didn't show up in a vacuum.

The earliest creeds of Christianity appear in the New Testament itself: "Jesus Christ is Lord" is a creed. St. Paul gives perhaps the earliest form of the Creed in 1 Corinthians 15, when he says, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,"

In the early 2nd century a philosopher convert to Christianity, Aristides of Athens, wrote a defense of the Christian faith and addressed it to the emperor Hadrian,

"The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and He is named the son of God Most High. And it is said that god came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed Himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time ago was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and He had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of His incarnation might in time be accomplished. But He Himself was pierced by the Jews, and He died and was buried; and they say that after three days He rose and ascended to heaven. Thereupon these twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and kept showing His greatness with all modesty and uprightness. And hence also those of the present day who believe that preaching are called Christians, and they are become famous."

"But the Christians, O King, while they went about and made search have found the truth; and as we learned from their writings, they have come nearer to the truth and genuine knowledge than the rest of the nations. For they know and trust in God, the Creator of heaven and of earth, in whom and from whom are all things, to whom there is no other god as companion, from whom they received commandments which they engraved upon their minds and observe in hope and expectation of the world which is to come."

From Irenaeus, late 2nd century, we find this:

"This then is the order of the rule of our faith, and the foundation of the building, and the stability of our conversation: God, the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the Creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith.

The second point is: The Word of God, the son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the dispensation of the Father. Through whom all things were made; who also at the end of the times, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce a community of union between God and man.

And the third point is: The Holy Spirit, through whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led forth into the way of righteousness; and who in the end of times was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man unto God.
" - St. Irenaeus, On the Apostolic Teaching, I.1.6

And also this:

"The Church, dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: In one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and sea, and all things that are in them. And in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation. And in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His appearing from heaven in the glory of the Father 'to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgments toward all." - Ireaneaus, Against Heresies, I.10.1

Between the 2nd and 3rd centuries we finally get this, known as the Old Roman Symbol:

"I believe in God the Father Almighty. And in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. Who under Pontius Pilate was crucified and buried, on the third day rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, whence He will come to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, the life everlasting."

Which may look familiar, because it's almost the Apostles' Creed, though the current form of the Apostles' Creed dates from many hundreds of years later. It is also the basis of the Nicene Creed:

The original text from the Council of Nicea, 325 AD:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only-begotten; that is, of the Being of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one Being with the Father; by whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was made flesh and was made man; He suffered, and the third day He rose again, ascended into heaven; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

And in the Holy Spirit.
"

And finally, the Creed as defined at Constantinople in 381 AD:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

In one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the Age to Come. Amen.
"

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dzheremi

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"Take the place of"

Human teaching, while important, does not take the place of the Word of God nor The Spirit of God.

I think it's self explanatory. I don't know what you think needs further explanation..

The Scriptures themselves tell us that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, so obviously there is an assumption that you will be preached to/at by someone. This is literally how it has gone in every single place and among every single people who have ever accepted the Gospel. See my previous post on that for several specific historical examples.

It is perhaps noteworthy to mention here in connection with this, concerning the preaching of the apostles -- who were very much humans -- it reads according to the Septuagint translation of the OT (the one which is quoted from directly most often by the Lord and His apostles themselves in the NT) that their sound (φθόγγος fthongos) has reached the ends of the world. This was the form in the original Greek version as quoted by Paul in his letter to the Romans (10:18) concerning the need that the Gospel be preached.

So you're supposed to be preached to by people, not make this artificial separation between "man" and "what God says" when the Scriptures quite clearly show that man, properly catechized and given the authority to do so, is the instrument by which what God says reaches people. The Bible is God's word and it tells you to hear the gospel as preached to you, and to hold to what you have been given whether by word or in writing (2 Thessalonians 2:15), and many other things that show that God and those whom He had sent out into the world to preach His word are smart enough to distinguish between the paradosis to Theou (literally "the Tradition of God") and the paradosis tis anthropos ("the tradition of men"). One is good and dependable and vital; the other, not so much.

If modern people themselves can't tell the difference, then the point of this thread is more than proven. Better catechesis is what is needed, not heedlessly deciding "Well this comes from a man, so it's clearly against the scriptures" when scripture itself affirms the holding of tradition and the preaching of men such as the holy apostles and disciples of Christ, who continued His Church across the entire world to this day according to the ancient lines of bishops established in the first four centuries of the Church. (Prior to the major schisms at Ephesus, Chalcedon, and with the mutual excommunications of the Latins and the Greeks in the 11th century.)
 
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FatalHeart

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The Scriptures themselves tell us that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, so obviously there is an assumption that you will be preached to/at by someone. This is literally how it has gone in every single place and among every single people who have ever accepted the Gospel. See my previous post on that for several specific historical examples.

It is perhaps noteworthy to mention here in connection with this, concerning the preaching of the apostles -- who were very much humans -- it reads according to the Septuagint translation of the OT (the one which is quoted from directly most often by the Lord and His apostles themselves in the NT) that their sound (φθόγγος fthongos) has reached the ends of the world. This was the form in the original Greek version as quoted by Paul in his letter to the Romans (10:18) concerning the need that the Gospel be preached.

So you're supposed to be preached to by people, not make this artificial separation between "man" and "what God says" when the Scriptures quite clearly show that man, properly catechized and given the authority to do so, is the instrument by which what God says reaches people. The Bible is God's word and it tells you to hear the gospel as preached to you, and to hold to what you have been given whether by word or in writing (2 Thessalonians 2:15), and many other things that show that God and those whom He had sent out into the world to preach His word are smart enough to distinguish between the paradosis to Theou (literally "the Tradition of God") and the paradosis tis anthropos ("the tradition of men"). One is good and dependable and vital; the other, not so much.

If modern people themselves can't tell the difference, then the point of this thread is more than proven. Better catechesis is what is needed, not heedlessly deciding "Well this comes from a man, so it's clearly against the scriptures" when scripture itself affirms the holding of tradition and the preaching of men such as the holy apostles and disciples of Christ, who continued His Church across the entire world to this day according to the ancient lines of bishops established in the first four centuries of the Church. (Prior to the major schisms at Ephesus, Chalcedon, and with the mutual excommunications of the Latins and the Greeks in the 11th century.)

Nice history. XD I was merely countering that if you dont take time at first to hear what God is saying that you won't know where to go. It's the foundation to spend time working on yourself and God before you go out trying to do His will and getting yourself first aligned.
 
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dzheremi

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Oh, okay. Sorry for misunderstanding you. I was looking at things from a more historical perspective because as this thread makes clear there are a lot of people who think that anything that doesn't come out of the Bible itself is therefore somehow an unwelcome or unhelpful (or worse) addition to the faith that can/should be jettisoned, apparently without realizing that the pre-Bible (i.e., pre-writing and/or pre-canonization) history of the Church is where we get all of our really core beliefs from: from the preaching of men like St. Mark in Alexandria and its environs, and of St. Peter and St. Paul in Antioch, and of St. Bartholomew in Armenia, and so on. In none of these places did these men arrive with scriptures in hand to convince the people from reading them of the truth of the faith. Rather they preached our risen Lord, Jesus the Christ, the Son of God, our God, from their own experiences with Him as His apostles and disciples (either of the 12 or of the 70).

So I feel it is important to point out the historical reality of what we believe and why we believe it, so that nobody gets the wrong (and sadly popular) impression that this was all some later cabal by Constantine (who was baptized only on his deathbed, and by an Arian at that!) or whoever, or some council somewhere, to mess with the word of God and make it other than what the scriptures affirm. That's simply not historically accurate or able to be substantiated in any fashion. It is a fantasy.

But again, I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you meant. Your point is a good one.
 
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FatalHeart

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Oh, okay. Sorry for misunderstanding you. I was looking at things from a more historical perspective because as this thread makes clear there are a lot of people who think that anything that doesn't come out of the Bible itself is therefore somehow an unwelcome or unhelpful (or worse) addition to the faith that can/should be jettisoned, apparently without realizing that the pre-Bible (i.e., pre-writing and/or pre-canonization) history of the Church is where we get all of our really core beliefs from: from the preaching of men like St. Mark in Alexandria and its environs, and of St. Peter and St. Paul in Antioch, and of St. Bartholomew in Armenia, and so on. In none of these places did these men arrive with scriptures in hand to convince the people from reading them of the truth of the faith. Rather they preached our risen Lord, Jesus the Christ, the Son of God, our God, from their own experiences with Him as His apostles and disciples (either of the 12 or of the 70).

So I feel it is important to point out the historical reality of what we believe and why we believe it, so that nobody gets the wrong (and sadly popular) impression that this was all some later cabal by Constantine (who was baptized only on his deathbed, and by an Arian at that!) or whoever, or some council somewhere, to mess with the word of God and make it other than what the scriptures affirm. That's simply not historically accurate or able to be substantiated in any fashion. It is a fantasy.

But again, I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you meant. Your point is a good one.

So is yours.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Constantine (who was baptized only on his deathbed, and by an Arian at that!)

That's the part of the story that the Constantine conspiracy theorists always seem to conveniently ignore. After Nicea Constantine's spiritual advisors were either themselves Arian or sympathetic to Arianism. It was Constantine who personally exiled Athanasius to Trier after a group of Arians, under Eusebius of Nicomedia (the very same who baptized Constantine on his deathbed) conspired to remove him and have Arians sit on the apostolic chair. And then the children and descendants of Constantine would do so again, and again, and again...

Athanasius contra Mundum indeed.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Foxfyre

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The role of the Church is to obey Him. Our obedience to Him is our relationship, our heart, and how we love others. When it says, "The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." God is serious. But if remove these like they truly should be among us, do you really think it would take any time at all for us all to see the same way?

I agree that some do not know and that God is merciful, but it is a sin that should be addressed and will be, either here now, or at the judgment. If you read through the epistles, you see that the morality of those called was far greater than what we have now. Do you really think God is going to use a different measuring stick for them than for us? We are in danger. We are not what we were. And if God was moving in them then, at that level, is He moving in us now? He does not show favoritism. The charade has gone on long enough. It's time for us to actually love each other. To come together under God's hand. To allow Him to lead His sheep and show the difference in two people's opinions. To prove us and to guide us so that we all can see eye to eye. It was for fullness that Christ died for. Why let things fall short of that? What spirit does that come from?

I respect your faith my friend, but I am pretty stuck on the old maxim: don't make things harder than they have to be.

The Church is US, the Christians who have a relationship with the Christ. The fact that some think they are the only ones who are saved or who can be saved is irrelevant to that fact. I know it is a fact because I know I have that relationship with the Christ and there are Christians that are certain I am headed straight for hell. :) (I am blessed that their opinion about that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.)

And some of us do a better job of teaching via word, prayers, example, sharing of knowledge than others.

Each one of us is unique with different spiritual gifts and ministries assigned to us and each will have their own demons to fight and challenges to meet and responsibilities to fill and the hand we are dealt will hold different cards than the next person. We each find the Lord in our own way--some early as small children and others late in life.

Truly there is evil in the world and people give in to it at times, do bad things, commit all manner of sin. One of the worst in my opinion--not THE worst necessarily but certainly very high on the list--are those who presume self righteousness to judge others whether it is people they know or have heard about or those elected or appointed to office. They are cruel in their words and actions, accuse them of all manner of terrible things and in so doing often bear false witness, gossip, and slander even as they consider themselves to be fine, upstanding Christians.

It is simply mind boggling. And IMO the most glaring error of how the Church teaches false Christology.

I also believe there is no sin so terrible that a person is beyond redemption though some refuse to accept it.
 
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FatalHeart

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I respect your faith my friend, but I am pretty stuck on the old maxim: don't make things harder than they have to be.

The Church is US, the Christians who have a relationship with the Christ. The fact that some think they are the only ones who are saved or who can be saved is irrelevant to that fact. I know it is a fact because I know I have that relationship with the Christ and there are Christians that are certain I am headed straight for hell. :) (I am blessed that their opinion about that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.)

And some of us do a better job of teaching via word, prayers, example, sharing of knowledge than others.

Each one of us is unique with different spiritual gifts and ministries assigned to us and each will have their own demons to fight and challenges to meet and responsibilities to fill and the hand we are dealt will hold different cards than the next person. We each find the Lord in our own way--some early as small children and others late in life.

Truly there is evil in the world and people give in to it at times, do bad things, commit all manner of sin. One of the worst in my opinion--not THE worst necessarily but certainly high on the list--are those who presume self righteousness to judge others whether it is people they know or have heard about or those elected or appointed to office. They are cruel in their words and actions, accuse them of all manner of terrible things and in so doing often bear false witness, gossip, and slander even as they consider themselves to be fine, upstanding Christians.

It is simply mind boggling. And IMO the most glaring error of how the Church teaches false Christology.

I also believe there is no sin so terrible that a person is beyond redemption though some refuse to accept it.

I would agree with you if it weren't also self righteousness to be acceptable before men. There's another side of pretenders, and it's those that teach the devils things, not considering sin, not considering that the Bible calls us to take care of each other, or hold each other accountable, avoiding hard conversations or judgments that need to be made. We all lean to certain parts of the fence and that doesn't make either wrong, but it does allow balance among the voices. I respect your perspective and am glad it exists. But if God does call you to rebuke someone, I hope you are up to the task with kindness and wisdom that God gives you. You may turn a soul from error and cover over a multitude of sins.
 
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FatalHeart

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OK, sure, but by your own admission, you don't know what is going on.




True, not a complaint I raised. My complaint is being alluded to unorthodox Christian.

This thread was created as a response to my threads. The OP said it. Even you picked up on it. You expect me to leave while one attacks my threads and grandstands about established and orthodox Christology while going on about creeds. I guess you are like the OP author and can't handle dissension. If all I've done so far is disruptive, than all you do is blind support.

Speaking of leaving, if you can't handle being challenged in GT, then you are in the wrong place.

Heyyyyyyyyy. God is kind. XD
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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CF rules are that you must agree with the Nicene Creed to post in the Christian section, if one does not agree then one can not post in the Christian section at all.
Way to point out the obvious. Let me point out the obvious.
How many creeds are in the SOF? One.
How many creeds are there? Many.
So when I say "their creeds" it is obviously not the creed required in the SOF
and it alludes to them holding multiple creeds.

I find it telling when someone thinks their creeds deem another not suitable for posting in a Christian forum.
 
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dzheremi

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That's the part of the story that the Constantine conspiracy theorists always seem to conveniently ignore. After Nicea Constantine's spiritual advisors were either themselves Arian or sympathetic to Arianism. It was Constantine who personally exiled Athanasius to Trier after a group of Arians, under Eusebius of Nicomedia (the very same who baptized Constantine on his deathbed) conspired to remove him and have Arians sit on the apostolic chair. And then the children and descendants of Constantine would do so again, and again, and again...

Athanasius contra Mundum indeed.

-CryptoLutheran

Though they are an extreme minority, there are some in the Coptic Orthodox Church (including monastics) who, knowing this history, are somewhat skeptical of Constantine's place as a saint in our Church. He is very much a saint in every way which is verifiable -- i.e., there are verses addressing him as such and asking for his prayers on our behalf in the litanies -- so when I asked them why it was that we still venerate him even though he was an Arian and exiled our beloved father HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, they replied that he was added under pressure from the Byzantines. I have no way of verifying this (certainly the Byzantines, i.e., Greeks/EO, would never accept such a characterization of their Church or its history), but I did find it interesting. This was in a monastic setting so I watched during the litanies to see what they would do when his name came up (it is a modern monastery, so they use the standard pre-printed books that any Coptic Orthodox Church or monastery would use, so his name is definitely in there), and they simply skipped over him and went on to the next saint as though he was not present. It felt a bit odd, to be honest. I've since heard from other Coptic people that this kind of behavior is not right, but I think I can see both sides in the argument, the pro- side being that he was instrumental in freeing and supporting the Christian faith on an imperial level which did allow us the freedom to practice our religion without having to take up arms for it (unlike, say, the Armenians, who had a whole battle with the Persians which they lost but still won that right through subsequent negotiations), while the anti- side can easily point to his being an Arian or at least an Arian sympathizer his the exile of HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic.

So it's a tough one. It's always strange to me that people paint some saints as being very controversial for doing less than that, yet he is never named among them. I think we can all be adults and admit that as the saints are people, some of them made some rather large errors at certain points in their lives. The martyr St. John of Phanijoit (d. 1211) at one point converted to Islam (he was martyred for leaving it and openly preaching his Christianity upon returning to it). St. Moses the Ethiopian had been a robber and a murder. My own baptismal saint, St. Shenouda the Archimandrite, got into physical confrontations with pagans and then boasted about it. :rolleyes:

So it is very strange that anyone would seem to be off limits, though I also understand the impulse of those who have been raised with this tradition to say that even if a particular saint was inserted due to Byzantine pressure many centuries ago, he or she is still there, and hence we should not monkey around with the established order of things. This is one of those things I let the Egyptians fight about among themselves and relegate myself to just listening and mulling it over, to the extent that it has come up twice in my seven years in the Church. For whatever else you can say about him, Constantine is a very interesting and very important figure.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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So lessee, you good with someone who believes in three gods in the Trinity, or that Christ is simply a Great Teacher should be allowed to hold forth here? After all, if they say they're a Christian then they are, whatever nonsense they may believe, right?
I am good with the Nicene Creed which, as someone else reminded us all, is the SOF to post here.
Are you good with people that don't hold all your other creeds being called Christians and being able to post here?
 
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