You think the Church should allow Priests and Nuns to get married?

[Davidnic]

Well, statistically your thesis has been disproven.

.

My view is that (and i am no scientist or psychologist) I think that the reason why child abuse and pedophilia has been happening is because priests and nuns have been suppressing a natural need. Sexual relationships. The intimacy between a man and a woman.

Every metric shows the abuse is not greater in the Church. And the vast majority of offenders are married and having regular sex with a consenting partner.

So sexual abuse of children does not manifest out of a repression of sexual desires but rather out of a disordered
Indulgence that does not arise from celibacy.

 

[Cis.jd]

You identify as Catholic. Have you ever heard of Jesus? You know... God incarnate? ...A celibate man?

Why does Jesus, being God made man contradict the argument of our natural design?
What I am telling you is basically science. We, especially males, have these chemicals in our bodies.. in short it's how we are designed. In fact, God made us social creatures and society is created because of reproduction. It is one of our natural ways of survival, procreation, and it is what God wants us to do.. to keep life going.

Here is a quote:
“Many priests have found it very difficult to cope with celibacy as they lived out their priesthood and felt the need of a companion,” said Cardinal O’Brien,

So for those traditional/closed minded Catholics, this is not something that goes against God or the church. Why take it as such, when God himself created Woman out of the rib of Man, because he designed us to be in need of this type of companionship.

He created woman because he saw it as a need for man, and he made both men and women to be in need of each other. We can see how this design, this law of his can't be broken because look at the mental state of most of our priests? They are committing these sexual immoralities because they are depraved and their minds can't handle it because again, this is not our design. If anyone thinks this is a dumb thing to say, then ask yourself why did God create woman, marriage between man and a woman, and designing this companionship to be the roots of the survival and continuing existence of humans through out time? Please don't answer with "well Jesus and Mother Mary were celibate" because we know those two are an exception just like in Romans 3:23.

 

[Cis.jd]

Every metric shows the abuse is not greater in the Church. And the vast majority of offenders are married and having regular sex with a consenting partner.

So sexual abuse of children does not manifest out of a repression of sexual desires but rather out of a disordered
Indulgence that does not arise from celibacy.

I have never made a statistic at all, and I never made the claim that celibacy is the only root for these disorders. It's possibly just one of them. Every single negative/disorder in this world is rooted somewhere in a persons life. For married men, they could have had other experiences that messed with their sanity and led them to this.. no matter what caused it doesn't mean that celibacy can't be seen as another way that this can happen.

The repression of sexuality can cause this mental disorder, that is what I am saying. Because naturally, both in science and biblically, we are biologically designed to need this type of personal/sexual companionship. God created Eve because he saw Adam needed a companion.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

You can say/express whatever opinion you want, the way you want. I don't flag or report. I don't view things on just a religious level but i also take in practicality and science in concern. I just can't base views on religious reasons with out a rational behind it.

If that were true, then you’d realize that some of the things you’ve said are categorically false. But apparently not.

 

[Davidnic]

I have never made a statistic at all, and I never made the claim that celibacy is the only root for these disorders. It's possibly just one of them.

I quoted the thesis from your post:

My view is that (and i am no scientist or psychologist) I think that the reason why child abuse and pedophilia has been happening is because priests and nuns have been suppressing a natural need. Sexual relationships. The intimacy between a man and a woman.

That has been definitively debunked.

Everything you've done past that is just back peddling to justify a point of view you want to believe.

You were never able to cite a statistic because all of them disproved your point.

you said the reason child abuse and pedophilia is happening is because priests and nuns suppressed a natural need.

But none of the evidence backs you because the vast majority of offenders are married with regular sex with a consenting partner.

If your points were true then that would not be the case and abuse would be exponentially higher in the Church.

Of course sex is natural and good. That does not mean that without it we become raving sex maniacs.

There's no evidence repression of sexuality can cause this disorder. And statistics and science actually show exactly the opposite. 75% of offenders are not celibate by choice or circumstance. In fact they had regular non abusive sex.

Have you ever taken a youth protection training where you watch interviews with the abusers? It's horrifying. But they all make the point that rather than having a lack of sex they were obsessed with it and having it in multiple ways on a regular basis.

It's not repression of a sex drive that causes this, it is the manifestation and indulgence od a fundamentally disordered one. Part of that is the placement of sex as the driving factor of our existence. Which is a fruit of materialism.

And your earlier point about what seminarians were encouraged to do is far off the reality of a legitimate formation program. If your friend experienced that it's because he went to one of the seminaries that are at the root of the crisis. Which again reflects a disordered view of sexuality.

 

[Davidnic]

No one here saying that if the Magisterium decided to do away with celibacy that they would have a problem with it.

But most of us to do reject the idea that we can red herring the abuse crisis as an excuse to say it should happen.

 

[Paidiske]

But none of the evidence backs you because the vast majority of offenders are married with regular sex with a consenting partner.

This does seem to suggest that blaming homosexuality is also a red herring...?

 

[Davidnic]

This does seem to suggest that blaming homosexuality is also a red herring...?

Except the grand jury reports have shown that the Church has a higher rate of older male to younger (but upper teen) male abuse than the general population by a large margin. And those young makes are 15 or older and the priests also engage in adult make sex. Add to that the revealed homosexual subculture in seminaries prior to the 1990s.

Although homosexuals abuse at no greater rate in the general population they do abuse at a rate high for their percentage of the population.

 

[Paidiske]

That's interesting; I think the stats have been quite different in Australia, where most of the victims were younger (I don't have a link, that's an impression from following the Royal Commission; but their reports are complex and I can't find a simple statement about that. There's an average age given here of 11 years old for boys: 4,444 victims: extent of abuse in Catholic church in Australia revealed ).

Maybe the problems are not identical in different countries, which will make dealing with them even more complex.

 

[Cis.jd]

I quoted the thesis from your post:

My view is that (and i am no scientist or psychologist) I think that the reason why child abuse and pedophilia has been happening is because priests and nuns have been suppressing a natural need. Sexual relationships. The intimacy between a man and a woman.

That has been definitively debunked.

Show me a reputable source that debunks sexual deprivation can potentially lead to psychological problems?

Everything you've done past that is just back peddling to justify a point of view you want to believe.You were never able to cite a statistic because all of them disproved your point.
you said the reason child abuse and pedophilia is happening is because priests and nuns suppressed a natural need. But none of the evidence backs you because the vast majority of offenders are married with regular sex with a consenting partner. snip

Of course it does. It has been well known in psychology that sexual deprivation can lead to psychological problems because of the needed chemical release our bodies get from it. Here is one form of evidence, teenagers. Why do you think children who reach the age of 13 to 16 develop something called teen angst? Why do you think when we reach a certain age our sexual organs develop? It's because we naturally have hormones and a rush of testosterone that biologically causes this.

You can make all these claims that you have gathered by pro-religious blogs and posts and confuse them as refutations towards my argument. But the fact is even our physical bodies develop for the purpose of sexual relationships.

The fact that Pope Francis is open to removing this tradition shows that this argument is well logical.

And your earlier point about what seminarians were encouraged to do is far off the reality of a legitimate formation program. If your friend experienced that it's because he went to one of the seminaries that are at the root of the crisis. Which again reflects a disordered view of sexuality.

He has claimed that the majority of seminars do this to young males who entering priesthood. Mainly because the church fears that a young man has not yet experienced sexual maturity the moment he decides to become celibate. It's just like what Jane Power said based on her surveying 300 Australian priests: "If a person is going to be able to live a celibate lifestyle they may have to be very emotionally mature and, unfortunately, the development in seminaries often comes from people who have not experienced a normal psycho-sexual development,".

 

[Davidnic]

Show me a reputable source that debunks sexual deprivation can potentially lead to psychological problems?

You said this problem specifically...not any problems. You are moving goal posts. You went from specific to general because your view was debunked. You keep using the tactic where you add on to your argument to try to claim it was the original argument

You can make all these claims that you have gathered by pro-religious blogs and posts and confuse them as refutations towards my argument.

They are not from pro-religious blogs. Unless you consider the US Department of Education and the main secular victim advocate orginizstions, along with prison records and offender data...pro religious blogs.

Your argument initially was that it was causing this specific problem of sexual abuse in the Church. That does not hold up to the statistical data.

Now you want to broaden it to can there be any problems with repressing sexual desires.

You came in with the claim that abuse was happening in the church specifically because of celibacy.

But that doesn't answer the statistics for the level where it happens everywhere else, level of sexually active married offenders being the vast majority.

Can repression cause problems. Yep. Does it cause pedophilia and pedastry...no.

So ending celibacy would not have helped this. That it would was your original point before adding on to obsfucate.

 

[Markie Boy]

Today's situation - where celibacy is mandatory we have massive, massive crisis. The East does not have mandatory celibacy, but they do have those called to it. They may have issues of their own, but nothing like what is showing up bigger every day in the RCC.

 

[Cis.jd]

You said this problem specifically...not any problems. You are moving goal posts. You went from specific to general because your view was debunked. You keep using the tactic where you add on to your argument to try to claim it was the original argument. So let's stick to your original point.

No. I have not said this mental disorder is exclusively caused to celibacy, i've made it clear that other environmental/personal upbringing can cause this mental illness. Celibacy is just one of them and it is scientifically rational/logical to conclude this.

If you read my posts, you would see my reference of long time prison inmates. Some of these men who have raped or had sexual relations with their male inmates probably have/had wives, children, girlfriends, etc... yet they are engaging in homosexual intercourse. You can make the argument that "well, those inmates are in jail because they raped this person.. but why are they facing sexual attraction towards the same sex?

This is almost the same mental-experience that a Priest can potentially go through; especially those who became ordained at a very young age in where they have not experienced any psycho-sexual maturity. The reason why they are doing these sexual deviations is because their bodies are craving for sexual gratification. It is craving to release these hormones that can only be done through the natural means of intercourse and also the human need of intimacy.

You have clearly ignored the arguments i've presented about how we are naturally designed. Even in scripture we see that God created woman because man can not be alone and we see this design of his in our biology: When we reach a certain age, our bodies (especially our reproductive organs) naturally develop to sexually cater towards the opposite gender.

They are not from pro-religious blogs. Unless you consider the US Department of Education and the main secular victim advocate orginizstions, along with prison record...pro religious blogs.
And if

I have read from the US DOE, they do not fully refute it they just explain other arguments against it. In short, it's still on the level of an argument and should not be considered as refutation evidence. The Pope himself is opened to this idea because it all makes sense, it's just we as catholics have a hard time adjusting to things we traditionally have grown up believing.

 

[Davidnic]

We've said multiple times that if the Magisterium was to change it...all fine and good. But using false arguments that use the scandal to justify it is bad logic.

 

[Cis.jd]

We've said multiple times that if the Magisterium was to change it...all fine and good. But using false arguments that use the scandal to justify it is bad logic.

why don't you go and try to explain the arguments about our bodies developing these sexual functions at a certain age and on why God created woman as a companion part. You have both science and religion already, and yet it is bad logic?
Also, why is the pope open to stopping the tradition?

edit: take in note that I also understand possible dangers of abolishing celibacy in priesthood.

 

[zippy2006]

Why does Jesus, being God made man contradict the argument of our natural design?

It contradicts your claim that celibacy is inherently contrary to human nature by pointing out that your position is just another Christological heresy. I'm not sure if you understand that or even care. Although it's strange to say, Christology strikes many these days as small potatoes.

God made Eve for Adam. That doesn't mean celibacy is inappropriate. It is inappropriate for some. Jesus talks about this too (Matthew 19:10-12). "He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."

 

[Cis.jd]

It contradicts your claim that celibacy is inherently contrary to human nature by pointing out that your position is just another Christological heresy. I'm not sure if you understand that or even care. Although it's strange to say, Christology strikes many these days as small potatoes.

Have you ever debated a Protestant before on the topic of Mary being sinless, and have been replied to with "Romands 3:23 - For all have sinned"? What was your answer on that, in fact, what is the answer of online catholic answer sites? I know you are probably thinking/saying "what does this have to do with what i said", but please just answer that for me.

God made Eve for Adam. That doesn't mean celibacy is inappropriate. It is inappropriate for some. Jesus talks about this too (Matthew 19:10-12). "He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."

But why did God create Eve for Adam? Refer to Matthew 19:4-5, 1 Cor. 11:9 and Gen 2:18 and then explain to me why. Also, I do not disagree about Celibacy on not being universally appropriate. I do understand and acknowledge other situations such as how Jesus put it with the eunuchs, however our priests where never originally ordered to do such things. Even Pope Francis stated this as a manmade tradition and not dogma.

 

[Markie Boy]

I think one thing is not so much that celibacy causes these disorders, but rather is creates a gathering place for people that can't cope with normal relationships.

Once they start acting out on urges that are totally natural, pledged celibates only have sinful options. I am hearing more and more that roughly only half of priests are actually chaste. When they act out, and then must deal with knowing they are sinful, it wears on a person.

The Magisterial decision could change this and people would be OK with it - but we see those in charge are simply not capable of dealing with things like this. What does one do there?

And nobody seems to want to address 1 Timothy ch. 3 or 1 Corinthians ch. 9 - those verses do not allow for mandatory celibacy, period!!!! Optional as a calling - all day long - mandatory and you are in opposition to God's Word, and you end up where we are.

 

[Rhamiel]

Also St Paul was celibate

Some are saying that the celibate priesthood in the West is only about 1,000 years old
The truth is that a celibate priesthood has always been the norm for the West, in the early Church in Rome there were married priests, but many of them did not have sex, time and time again in early Western writings we see the celibate priesthood as the idea and working up to it becoming a hard rule the exceptions became more and more limited, it is not like we had a majority of married priests and the Pope just said one day “ok that is over now” lol they would have killed him

 

[Rhamiel]

I think one thing is not so much that celibacy causes these disorders, but rather is creates a gathering place for people that can't cope with normal relationships.

Once they start acting out on urges that are totally natural, pledged celibates only have sinful options. I am hearing more and more that roughly only half of priests are actually chaste. When they act out, and then must deal with knowing they are sinful, it wears on a person.

The Magisterial decision could change this and people would be OK with it - but we see those in charge are simply not capable of dealing with things like this. What does one do there?

And nobody seems to want to address 1 Timothy ch. 3 or 1 Corinthians ch. 9 - those verses do not allow for mandatory celibacy, period!!!! Optional as a calling - all day long - mandatory and you are in opposition to God's Word, and you end up where we are.

If you think the priesthood is a refuge for men who can not cope with normal relationships, well allowing them to marry will not help them since their psychlogical, social, and emotional defects will hinder or totally destroy any marriage they enter into

Men who are spiritually, psychologically, and emotionally healthy can be good husbands or good celibate priests, that is why the Church HAS to do a better job with screening applicants for the seminary. Allowing it to be a place for perverse and effeminate men to slink off and hide in has done great harm to the Church, if you allow married priests (bad idea) but still keep the weak application standards (even worse idea) it will do no good

The problem is not unmarried priests, it is allowing unfit candidates to become priests