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Faith Plus Works

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Take for example George Sodini. He was a huge proponent of OSAS or a belief alone in Jesus plus nothing else. In fact, he wrote in his suicide letter that he would still be saved even despite the evil acts that he was about to commit. George Sodini ended up killing a bunch of people and then he took his own life.

http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm

That to me is the true fruits of OSAS or a sin and still be saved type belief (or saying that good works have nothing to do with our salvation).
 
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Kids have also committed suicide because they believed in OSAS or that works did not play a part in their salvation, as well.
For what motivation does one have to do the right thing?
If you are saved no matter what you do, then these kids rationalized that killing themselves would help ease their suffering and make them see Jesus sooner. However, this is not what the Bible teaches, folks. The devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy... Not God. God wants us to live and to do what is good and right. For we honor God by our good works (See Matthew 5:16).
 
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Afra

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Hi David/Anna, so in the end, it's our "cooperation" w/God that actually saves us, rather than His grace (or do you believe that God gives His saving grace to certain individuals and withholds it from others)?
You believe that faith is necessary for salvation. So, in the end, it's our "faith" in God that actually saves us, rather than His grace.

The logic in that statement is exactly the same as your statement, and equally faulty. As a Calvinist, you would say that grace and faith are not inconsistent because faith itself is a product of God's grace. That is, faith itself is a gift from God. And that is absolutely true.

But you can apply the same principle to works of one who is justified (as opposed to the works of one who is not justified, which St. Paul refers to). The works of one justified are not meritorious because they are the result of the person's own efforts or intrinsic goodness. They are meritorious because they are done in God, they are fruit of the Holy Spirit, and because the works themselves are the gifts of God himself (just as your faith is a gift from God).

Thus, Trent states both of the following:

1) But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

2) Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name; and, Do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward.

Hence, to those who work well unto the end and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.

For this is the crown of justice which after his fight and course the Apostle declared was laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming.

For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches, continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its due time, provided they depart this life in grace, since Christ our Savior says:

If anyone shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst forever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up into life everlasting.

Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own from ourselves, nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated, for that justice which is called ours, because we are justified by its inherence in us, that same is the justice of God, because it is infused into us by God through the merit of Christ.

Nor must this be omitted, that although in the sacred writings so much is attributed to good works, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, Christ promises, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless, far be it that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord, whose bounty toward all men is so great that He wishes the things that are His gifts to be their merits.
 
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Unfortunately that is not how things work in regards to salvation according to the Bible. While God can certainly chastise us, and or do things to protect us, if we start off saying that our gospel message is in Christ alone and nothing else, that means that we are telling other people that we can sin and still be saved (Whether we want to happen or not).

For saying: Grace + nothing else = salvation...
Is another way of saying: Grace + sin = salvation.
For "sin" falls under the "nothing else" category.
Because one is saying that sin does not play a factor in the salvation equation.
Therefore a person can sin and still be saved.
Meaning, a Christian can be an axe murdering rapist and be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus. Now, many will say that a true Christian will not do those kinds of things. But what they are really saying is that there is a certain level of holiness that is required to be saved when they say that a Christian will not do those things. So yes.... holiness is required as a part of the salvation process unless of course you believe Christians can be saved even while they are axe murdering rapists.

Please take note that I have talked with people who believe they can do extremely grievous sins with the thinking they are saved. I had people admit to me they could mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and they would still be saved while doing so.

Unfortunately you project a grievous error on a position you reject because of an inner heart attitude towards free sovereign grace. People accused Jesus of being a drunkard too, eww look He eats with tax collectors and sinners.

So my question for you is, if a Christian sins, are they no longer saved? How many sins? Seventy times seven before being cut off and thrown into the fire? At what point does the blood of Christ become ineffective? How many more drops need to be re-applied? Do our tears add to the effectiveness of the blood of Christ to save?

Christians do sin, and they are still saved, and God alone grants repentance, which is not what we are saved by, it is by grace through faith in Christ alone, it is for the glory of God alone, none can boast, He does not give any room to, though many think otherwise by their thoughts, words, and actions towards others.
 
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redleghunter

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The sheep (described here) are those sheep who FOLLOW Jesus. They are not lazy sheep who are being dragged by their necks on leashes here. So the condition in not being plucked out of his hand is if we are following Jesus.

Remember, the sheep are those who actually helped the poor in Matthew 25:31-40. However, the goats did not help the poor and they were cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:41-46).
Yes the sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Nothing about dragging them about the pen. That’s something you introduced subjectively to the text.
 
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redleghunter

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If salvation means that sins are forgiven, I think there is no requirement. Sins are forgiven by words Jesus told. But Jesus also said, eternal life is for righteous. So, after sins are forgiven, person should become righteous, to get eternal life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

… That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7


…Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.

1 John 3:7-10

When person is righteous, it is seen also in the actions. Person who is righteous, is faithful to God, because understands it is good and right.

"The righteous will live by faith."
Galatians 3:11

And, if person is faithful/loyal to God, he works accordingly.
It took 37 posts for someone to mention the new birth. Thank you.
 
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Yes the sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Nothing about dragging them about the pen. That’s something you introduced subjectively to the text.

Ah, yes. You are of the Calvinistic leaning, right? So you believe that God forces believers to follow Jesus? Where are they today? Where are the followers of Jesus like we see in the New Testament? Not many are truly living like the disciples did. Do you believe that you live automatically like a Paul, or a Peter, etc.? Or do you think that this is something that you need to work out with God yourself to walk as they did? In other words, there is free will and God does not force you to be a certain way. You are not a mindless robot doing all of God's will perfectly. This is what needs to happen if God makes some to be believers and others to not be believers by God's own choosing.
 
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All4Christ

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I believe in Original Sin, Prevenient Grace, and Synergism (Which is different than Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism).
Synergism is one of the areas that stayed the same for me from when I was a Pentecostal to now as an Orthodox Christian. We called it sanctification when I was Pentecostal and in the Orthodox Church, we call it theosis - but the same concept is there, once I translated the terminology ;). Ironically, my beliefs on salvation as a Pentecostal were closer to my beliefs on salvation now than many more traditional Protestant Churches that teach monergism.
 
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redleghunter

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Okay first. When Paul talks about the Law he is not talking about the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers. Paul is talking about the Law of Moses as a whole or package deal and Paul is talking about "Law Alone Salvationism" (that did not include God's grace).

When Paul is speaking against the Law in regards to salvation, Paul is fightimg against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is in essence saying that you are saved by Law Alone and not grace):

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

3 "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:" (Galatians 2:3-4).

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

In fact, at the Jerusalem counsel they addressed the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" and in going back to the Law of Moses to be saved.

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

Paul was not talking about how we are exempt from the "Moral Law" (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet) in relation to being right with God. For Paul says if any man does those things (like murder, etc.) they will not inherit the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

Second, the good works done in my life are not my works alone, but they are the works of the Lord being done through me. I surrender to Christ and He does the good work. For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). The works are proof that Jesus lives in us. No Jesus and we have no life (1 John 5:12).
Galatians is instructive as the Jesus plus something else was Temple Judaism at that time. Instructive today as there are many Jesus plus something else beliefs out there as well.

I would not focus too much on circumcision and Jewish ceremonial rights specifically, but the heart that looked to those things and the reason why.

I think when it comes to the OP you are introducing a slothful, unmotivated almost comatose “faith” set up as a straw man to beat down. Quite a few have already confirmed saving faith is not comatose but active. And it should be as we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit Who is the seal of the Promise.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, these are a part of the "work of faith" (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11) because faith without works is dead (James 2:17). A dead faith cannot save. For without faith, it is impossible to please God (See Hebrews 11:6). So one needs works as a part of salvation.
A dead faith is one that is not in Christ but something else.
 
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Afra

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So my question for you is, if a Christian sins, are they no longer saved? How many sins? Seventy times seven before being cut off and thrown into the fire? At what point does the blood of Christ become ineffective? How many more drops need to be re-applied? Do our tears add to the effectiveness of the blood of Christ to save?
It is not the number but the nature of the sin that cuts you off. Hence, St. Paul states:

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

. . .

Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Christians do sin, and they are still saved
No, "if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
 
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Soyeong

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When you say that salvation is by faith plus works, what do you mean?

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to God's instructions is about having faith in Him to guide us in how to rightly live. Living by faith is always associated with having a willingness to obey God's instructions, such as with the examples of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's instructions is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is dead and that that he would show his faith by his works, so obedience to God's Law is what faith looks like, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified. However, we are not saved by our obedience to the Law, but rather we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires (Romans 1:5), so the same grace and faith by which we are saved also requires our obedience, which is why Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10 that we have been saved by grace through faith, not by works, but rather we have been made creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works.
 
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redleghunter

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But when you get to what you referred to as "living a godly life", i.e. carrying out works of mercy such as Christ recommended in the Sermon on the Mount, you are in the right area.
It’s unfortunate some see works as some checklist.

If one is walking in the Spirit (Romans 8) they will bear fruits of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Galatians is instructive as the Jesus plus something else was Temple Judaism at that time. Instructive today as there are many Jesus plus something else beliefs out there as well.

I would not focus too much on circumcision and Jewish ceremonial rights specifically, but the heart that looked to those things and the reason why.

I think when it comes to the OP you are introducing a slothful, unmotivated almost comatose “faith” set up as a straw man to beat down. Quite a few have already confirmed saving faith is not comatose but active. And it should be as we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit Who is the seal of the Promise.

No. That is not true. Paul says in Galatians 5:19-21 that if a person commits certain sins like murder, adultery, drunkenness, etc. they will not inherit the kingdom of God. In 1 Timothy 6:3-4, Paul says if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. In James 4:6, it says that God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble. Over and over again are the warnings. But you don't want to see them. So no. There is no straw man argument going on here.

If a person says that you are saved by Jesus Christ and they say it is by nothing else.... the nothing else.... would include "sin" in that "nothing else" category. Meaning, they are saying a person is saved even if they sin. If you believe that a believer is forced saved to do good works and holiness by God, then you are saying that works play a part in their salvation because you say that a true believer is defined by good deeds, no? Can a believer abide in grievous sin and still be saved? What about David? Was David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
 
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redleghunter

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if we start off saying that our gospel message is in Christ alone and nothing else, that means that we are telling other people that we can sin and still be saved (Whether we want to happen or not).
No, that’s not the message sent. The message is we find salvation in no other than Christ Jesus.

Bolded above is the straw man you introduced to the conversation while ignoring the posts which pointed out to you saving faith does not produce sons of wrath.
 
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redleghunter

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No. That is not true. Paul says in Galatians 5:19-21 that if a person commits certain sins like murder, adultery, drunkenness, etc. will not inherit the kingdom of God. In 1 Timothy 6:3-4, Paul says if any speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. In James 4:6, it says that God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble. Over and over again are the warnings. But you don't want to see them. So no. There is no straw man argument going on here.
Yeah that did not address what I posted.

Please address the post you respond to and hold the canned polemics.
 
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A dead faith is one that is not in Christ but something else.

Why would James tell dead people about how faith without works is dead?
James was condemning certain individuals in whom he was writing to in the fact that they have committed sin by having respect of persons in giving favor to the rich brethren over the poor brethren. They transgressed the Royal Law in loving their neighbor and they broke all of God's laws as a result. This is where James gets into talking about faith without works is dead and how we are justified by works and not faith only.
 
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Yes the sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Nothing about dragging them about the pen. That’s something you introduced subjectively to the text.

I love when He holds me and carries me, only want to be let down to eat and use the bathroom (and here is what I get distracted), he washes me and in areas I cannot even reach. :)
 
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No, that’s not the message sent. The message is we find salvation in no other than Christ Jesus.

Bolded above is the straw man you introduced to the conversation while ignoring the posts which pointed out to you saving faith does not produce sons of wrath.

Just saying it is a straw man argument does not mean anything. On the contrary, there are many testimonies of ex OSAS proponents who came out of OSAS because they felt they were led into sin by such a doctrine or belief.

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony
Out Of Darkness NO Eternal Security Christian Testimony

Suicide, Mass Murder, and OSAS:
(George Sodini):
GEORGE SODINI
Also, to tell a crowd that they are saved by Jesus and nothing else CAN lead a person to think the wrong thing if you say nothing else after that (Whether you want that to happen or not). How so? Think. Does not "sin" fall under the "nothing else" category? If it doesn't then you need to say that we are saved by God's grace + holiness/works + nothing else.
 
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