IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[LoveGodsWord]

After the cross: Nine out of the Ten commandments were specified or repeated clearly but the command for the Sabbath was not repeated.

Jason this statement has no truth in it whatsoever and is simply your words over God's WORD. None of the first 4 of the 10 Commandments which are our duty towards God are repeated word for word in the NEW TESTAMENT. Yet everyone of them is repeated and reconfirmed in the NEW TESTAMENT (SCRIPTURE SUPPORT HERE CLICK ME). I suggest you read your bible and stop saying things that are not true.

HEBREWS 4:9 SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

There are 10 commandments that are spoken and written by God in God's WORD (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; 10:4) No where in God's WORD does it talk about the 9 commandments just as there is no scripture in all of God's WORD that says that God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Sorry Jason your teaching here as shown in the scriptures have no truth in it. Jesus and all the Apostles taught all of God's Commandments in the NEW TESTAMENT not nine of them (SCRIPTURES SUPPORT HERE CLICK ME).

Not even during Christ's ministry was there ever a command given for a believer to keep the Sabbath.

Now Jason look at what your saying here brother. God's people had been given the 10 commandments by God 4000 years prior at Mt Sinia (Exodus 20:1-17). For 4000 years they had God's 10 Commandments and the Mosiac shadow laws from the BOOK of the COVENANT (Exodus 24:7). They already had God's 4th commandment Sabbath and were keeping it. Jesus and all the disciples were keeping it before and after the death and ressurection of Jesus all through the NEW TESTAMENT. Jesus taught us how to keep the Sabbath and kept it when he was alive. Now if Jesus taught us how to correctly keep the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-12). Why would he teach us how to keep the Sabbath if the Sabbath is abolished? Where does Jesus teach that his 4th Commandment of the ten is abolsihed? Where is the scripture in all of God's WORD that says God's 4th Commandment is abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? You are following the teaching and traditions of men that break the commandments of God (Matthew 15:3-9). Those who do this are not following God.

The New Covenant went into effect officially with Christ's death. So we should expect to see a clear command (like from Exodus 20) about keeping the Sabbath within the New Testament (But it is simply not there).

Jason your words have no truth in them. I suggest you read your bible. None of the first four commandments in the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures are written word for word in the NEW TESTAMENT yet everyone of them are repeated both individually (SCRIPTURE SUPPORT HERE CLICK ME), and collectively (SCRIPTURES SUPPORT HERE CLICK ME) by Jesus and the Apostles.

In fact, in none of Paul's letters does Paul tell the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath command and he wrote the majority of the New Testament.

You do know that there are no gentiles now in the NEW COVENANT. Gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL (Romans 11:16-17). If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the NEW COVENANT promise (Hebrews 8:10-12). God's LAW (10 commandments) give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Psalms 119:172). Paul taught the gentile believers that God's LAW (10 Commandments) are established through FIATH (Romans 3:31; Romans 13:8-10). Sorry Jason, seems God's WORD disagrees with your teachings again.

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

On the contrary, Paul said in two places that we are not under the Sabbath. Colossians 2:16-17, Paul says we are not to let anyone judge us according to Sabbaths.

Jason your leaving out the within scripture and chapter CONTEXT again as shown you ealier. The audience here is gentiles believers. The scripture says.

COLOSSIANS 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath day{s}: [S meaning plural; more then one]

The therefore is a conclusion of an argument that has been stated prior which is the topic of conversation. The topic of conversation starts from v11.

COL 2:11-17 CHAPTER CONTEXT

11, In whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12, Buried with him in baptism, in which also you are risen with him through the faith of the working of God, who has raised him from the dead.
13, And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14, Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15, And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16, Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17, Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

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CHAPTER CONTEXT OF COL 2:14 AND SUBJECT MATTER (COL 2:11-17)

V11. Shadows of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing to CIRCUMCISION of the HEART MADE WITHOUT HANDS by the CIRCUMCISION of Christ.

Foretold in the OLD TESTAMENT….

DEUTERONOMY 10 [16] Circumcise therefore THE FORESKIN OF YOUR HEART, and be no more stiff-necked.

DEUTERONOMY 30 [6] And the LORD your God will CIRCUMCISE YOUR HEART AND THE HEART OF YOUR DECENDENCE, TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART AND WITHYOU’RE YOUR SOUL, THAT YOU MAY LIVE.

JEREMIAH 4 [4] CIRCUMCISE YOURSELF TO THE LORD, AND TAKE AWAY THE FORESKINS OF YOUR HEART, you men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

NEW COVENANT FULFILLMENT of the SHADOWS of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION pointing the CIRCUMCISION of the HEART through faith in Christ…

ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

This is the operation of GOD in the NEW COVENANT…

HEBREWS 8 [10], For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

CONCLUSION; The CEREMONIAL ORDINANCE of CIRCUMCISION is a Shadow law from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT pointing to a NEW HEART to LOVE and OBEY GOD in the NEW COVENANT

The SHADOW laws of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION from the Mosaic BOOK of the Covenant are the within CHAPTER CONTEXT BEFORE COL 2:14

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COL 2:14 SCRIPTURE SUBJECT MATTER AND CONTENT.

14, Blotting out the HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

GREEK WORD MEANINGS AND WORD USE

14, “BLOTTING OUT” < G1813 ἐξαλείφωexaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v. means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase>the “HANDWRITING” < G5498 χειρόγραφονcheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n. means something hand-written (“chirograph”), a manuscript specially, a legal document > of “ORDINANCES” < G1378 δόγμαdogma (d̮og'-ma) n. means; ORDINANCE; CIVIL, CEREMONIAL or ECCLESIASTICAL laws>that was against us, WHICH WERE AGAINST , and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The GREEK WORD meanings here in this scripture show that it follows the same CONTEXT of v11-13 in relation to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

V14 Blotting out or erasing the legal MANUSCRIPT or document of ORDINANCES referred to here are those of the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.
The GREEK word for ORDIANACE is DOGMA meaning THE CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL ORDINANCES once again only found in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant

This scripture cannot be referring to the abolishing of the 10 commandments of God’s LAW as God’s 10 Commandments are not ORDINANCES and they are not written in a MANUSCRIPT they are written on two tables of stone (Exodus 31:18). Also the chapter CONTEXT is in reference to the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES of CIRCUMCISION once again from the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. These were all SHADOWS ALONG WITH THE ORDINANCES OF v17 pointing to Christ and the plan of SALVATION.

ORDINANCES that were against us is referring to the also referring to the PENALTY of SIN (breaking God’s Commandments and the ORDINANCES of curses written once again in the MOSAIC BOOK of the Covenant.

DEUTERONOMY 31:26 [26] Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUTERONOMY 30:19 [19] For GOD has said, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, BLESSINGS AND CURSES: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: [20] That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest OBEY his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

(See the list of ORDINACES for curses of breaking Gods’ Law in DEUTERONOMY 28:15-68)

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CONCLUSION; COL 2:14 is talking about the CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOSIAC BOOK of the Covenant which are SHADOW laws pointing to Jesus and God’s plan of SALVATION. This is supported also by the within CHAPTER CONTEXT and SUBJECT matter of v16 which are all CEREMONIAL ORDINANCES written in the MOCAIC BOOK of the COVENANT and not referring to ABOLISHING God’s 10 Commandments.

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WHAT IS PAUL TALKING ABOUT IN COL 2:16-17? (linking the OLD to the NEW)

Col 2:16-17, Let no man therefore judge you in (1) meat, or in drink, or in respect of an (2) feastival, or of the (3) new moon, or of the (4) sabbath day{s} plural: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

What is Paul referring to from the OLD TESTAMENT?

EZEKIEL 45:17-21, It shall be the prince’s duty to furnish the (1) burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the (2) feasts, the (3) new moons, and the (4) Sabbath{s}, at all the appointed (2) feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. Thus says the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary: And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court. And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erred, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house. In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the Passover, a Feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

1 CHRONICLES 23:31 and whenever (1) burnt offerings were presented to the LORD on the (4) Sabbaths, at the (3) New Moon (2) feasts and at the appointed festivals. They were to serve before the LORD regularly in the proper number and in the way prescribed for them.

2 CHRONICLES 2:4 [4] Now I am about to build a temple for the Name of the LORD my God and to dedicate it to him for burning fragrant incense before him, for setting out the consecrated bread regularly, and for making (1) burnt offerings every morning and evening and on the (4) Sabbaths, at the (3) New Moons and at the appointed (2) festivals of the LORD our God. This is a lasting ordinance for Israel.

HOSEA 2:11 [11], I will stop all her celebrations: her (2) yearly festivals, her (3) New Moons, her (4) Sabbaths and all her (2) appointed festivals.

It is interesting to note in the Old Testament the word Sabbath (shabbath 7676 from shabath 7673 meaning “rest”) is not only used for the weekly Sabbath but is also applied to the first and last days of the annual Jewish Festivals. The Greek Word used in Col 2:16 is Sabbaton simply means to cease from secular work; rest.

The monthly New Moon Sabbaths in relation to these festivals as well as the Holy convocations (Sabbaton to cease from work and rest) could fall on any day of the week depending on the year the festival was starting. The Holy convocations were to start the beginning of the annual Jewish feasts. They were to be rest (Sabbath) days (not to be confused with God’s commandment) and restricted or no work was to be done. (Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29)

A High Sabbath day however was when a Holy convocation [annual feast day] falls on the same day as God’s weekly Sabbath commandment (Ex 20:8-11). This is an extension of the term "high day" found in the King James Version at John 19:31-42. The seven festivals do not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). Three of them occur in spring: the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover), and Shavuot (Pentecost) which occurs in summer. Three occur in fall, in the seventh month, and are also called shabbaton: Rosh Hashanah (Trumpets); Yom Kippur, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths" (Atonement); and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Tabernacles). Sometimes the word shabbaton is extended to mean all seven festivals. The Gospel of John says of the night immediately following Christ's burial that "that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31-42). That night was Nisan 15, just after the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies. The King James Version may thus be the origin of naming the annual rest days "High Sabbaths" in English (source: wiki).

All of the above have their origin from the ceremonial laws of the book of Moses found in Lev 23; Num 10; 28; 29. All these references are in connection to; (1) Food and Drink offerings, (2) Feast days, (3) New Moons and (4) annual feast Sabbath(s)

So in summary, it should be very clear that Col 2:14-17 is referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses along with the annual Jewish feast days that all pointed to the coming of Jesus. When Jesus died on the cross the Jewish feasts along with the burnt offerings, food and drink offerings, festivals and New Moon festival Sabbath(s) which all pointed to Jesus where a shadow of things to come. Many of the feast days (holy convocations) in Lev 23 where no work days in the Greek Col 2:16 were Sabbaton cease from secular work and rest.

Now, some of you have said that the word "Sabbaths" here is not in reference to the weekly Sabbath. However, this is false. How so? Well, for one, the pattern is festivals (Which are yearly), new moons (Which are monthly), and sabbaths (Which can be weekly and yearly). This pattern can be seen even in the Old Testament Scriptures, as well.

Two, the word "Sabbaths" can refer to the weekly Sabbath according to the OT.

14 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
15 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
16 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 31:14-16).

Jason, your mistake here is not undertanding that there the Hebrew and Greek Words used here are not singular they are PLURAL. The WORD used here is SABBATH{S} If Colossians 2 was a reference to God's 4th Commandment then it would be SABBATH singular. Both the within SCRIPTURE and CHAPTER context of Colossians 2 is that of the Shadow laws from the Mosaic BOOK of the COVENANT as shown in the scriptures previously. There is no reference to any of God's 10 Commandments. ALL the CHAPTER and scripture CONTEXT is the Shadow laws from the ANNUAL Jewish FESTIVALS. Paul is referencing the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures as shown to you above and is referring to the SHADOW ceremonial Sabbath connected to FEAST days.

You mix up your Shadow laws with God's 10 Commandments. Besides God's 4th Commandment which is the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH written on stone, there were "SPECIAL" annual ceremonial Sabbath connected to the annual Jewish festivals in the OLD COVENANT written in the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT.

These ceremonial Sabbath were not God's 4th Commandment of the 10 Commandments but were connected to annual festivals and could fall on ANY DAY of the week depending on the yearly cycle (please read LEVITICUS 23;24-39).

These ceremonial "SPECIAL" Sabbath were connected to..

* Annual festival of The blowing of trumpet (Leviticus 23:24)
* Annual Day of Atonement (Leviticus 23:32)
* Annual Feast of tabernacles (Leviticus 23:39)

These "SPECIAL" Sabbath could fall on any day and were connected directly to these festivals that were prophetic in nature pointing to Jesus and God's plan of Salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

You have your Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT mixed up with God's ETERNAL LAW that give us a KNOWLEDGE of sin (Romans 3:20).

DETAILED SCRIPTURE SUPPORT COLOSSIANS 2 LINKING THE NEW TESTAMENT TO OLD

Sorry Jason, God's WORD disagrees with you.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

As already proven through the scriptures earlier. Under the CIVIL laws of ISRAEL in the OLD COVENANT people were stonned to death for breaking any of God's 10 commandments not only the Sabbath. For example serving other god's death penalty (Deuteronomy 13:16-18; 1 Samuel 26:19), Idolartry death pemalty (Deuteronomy 13:1-10; 17:2-5; 27:15; 7:25-26), using God's name in vain death penalty (Leviticus 24:10-17), Breaking the Sabbath, death penalty (Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2), Dishonor parents death penalty (Leviticus 20:9; Deuteronomy 21:18-21; Exodus 21:17, Murder death penalty (Exodus 21:12-14), Adultery death penalty (Leviticus 20; John 8:5), Stealing (kidnapping) death penalty Exodus 21:16, Lying death penalty (Deuteronomy 19:15-21).

Under the NEW COVENANT the wages of SIN is still the DEATH penalty although judgment is executed at the 2nd coming and final judgment (Romans 6:23; James 2:8-12; Romans 2:12-13) So no brother those scripture do not help you. You mix up the Shadow law from the MOSAIC BOOK of the covenant with God's eternal laws that give us a KNLOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUENESS (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Pslams 119:172).

10 "You are trying to earn favor with God by observing certain days or months or seasons or years. 11 I fear for you. Perhaps all my hard work with you was for nothing." (Galatians 4:10-11) (NLT). Note: Some in your camp have said this is talking about astrology or something; But nowhere is that found in the context. The actual context is the law (of which we can see described in verses 21-26). It essentially says the Old Law is bondage.

Sorry Jason that has no truth in it whatsoever. Let's look at the scriptures in detail..

GALATIANS 4:1-10
[1], Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
[2], But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

NOTE: Reference to Galatians 3:22-25 as the law reveals to us we are all sinners and our need of Christ for salvation; Romans 2:3-12 and Romans 3:9-20 show that both JEW and GENTILES through God's LAW are all "UNDER SIN" and stand guilty before GOD "UNDER THE LAW" because they have broken it.

[3], Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

NOTE: BONDAGE here is the bondage of SIN (breaking God's LAW; 1 John 3:4) As Jesus says whosoever commits sin is a servant to sin (John 8:34) Salvation is from sin (John 8:34-36) GOD'S LAW is not being referred to as BONDAGE SIN is * JOHN 8:31-36; Romans 6:1-23

[4], But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
[5], To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

NOTE: ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God. ALL are "UNDER THE LAW" and stand guilty before God of sin Romans 3:9-20.

[6], And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

NOTE: We are talking to BELIEVERS in God's WORD.

[7], Why you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

NOTE: We are not to be servant of sin * JOHN 8:31-36

[8], However, then, when you knew not God, you did service to them which by nature are no gods.

NOTE: In the past we were not serving God but other God's and sin. To serve other god's is sin by breaking the 1st commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

[9], But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn you again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto you desire again to be in bondage?

KEY POINTS SO FAR:

CONTEXT show that the audience here are BELIEVERS in God's WORD v6 that have known GOD who Paul says were in BONDAGE to SIN (not the law) v3. They turned away from their SINS and were following God v7, when they did not know God these people were serving other gods v8. NOW the KEY scripture you have ignored. v9 But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn you again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto you desire again to be in bondage? The scripture here is talking about the believers turning back to serving other gods. Turning back to serving those that are not gods v8.

Let's continue..

[10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS. [11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Back to serving other gods v8. Galatians 4 says nothing about God's 4th Commandment. Its speaking of those who observe times.

The OLD TESTAMENT agreeing with the NEW...

DEUTERONOMY 18:9 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

The same thing goes on to this very day. Its speaking of the occult. Those who observe certain days by use of horoscopes?

2 CHRONICLES 33:3 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

Enchantments, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizards. Its speaking of the occult. Not following sabbath days.

LEVITICUS 19:26 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths. Sorry Jason your interpretation of God's WORD disagrees with both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures. These are the two great witnesses of God's WORD.

21 Tell me, you who want to live under the law, do you know what the law actually says?
22 The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife.
23 The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise. But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise.
24 These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them.
25 And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law.
26 But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother." (Galatians 4:21-26).

GALATIANS 4:21-26 is talking about RIGHTEOUSNESS by FAITH and the OLD AND NEW COVENANTS.

To be "UNDER THE LAW" in this context is to seek to get your own RIGHTEOUSNESS by trying to obey God's LAW when all God's LAW does is reveal sin. Paul is showing through the covenants [Hagar and Sarah are an allegory of the OLD AND NEW COVENANTS v24] that RIGHTOUESNESS is by FAITH and not by the LAW.

The LAW (10 commandments and the Mosaic BOOK) is not where we get RIGHTOUESNESS because as PAUL says elsewhere there is NONE RIGHTEOUS NO NOT ONE (Romans 3:10). The purpose of God's LAW is only to give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTOUESNESS (Romans 3:20; James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). It is the schoolmaster that leads us to the Cross of Christ that we might be forgiven by FAITH (Galatians 3:22-25).

RIGHTEOUSNESS is by FAITH in the WORD of GOD alone and not from the deeds of the law. If you are trying to be righteous through the LAW then all you will see is your sins and the wages of sin is death because you have not accepted the gift of God's dear son (Romans 6:23).

The scriptures are not saying God's LAW is Abolsihed it is saying RIGHTEOUSNESS is by FAITH in Christ and not the LAW the works of the LAW. This is the topic of discussion and subject matter from v21-31. Bondage is to sin (John 8:34). God's LAW just shows it (Romans 3:20). Jesus wants to save us from it (John 8:36).

Now Jason, if you do not understand what the SHADOW laws of the OLD COVENANT are how can you UNDERSTAND God's eternal LAWS in the NEW COVENANT? It is the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures through God's SPIRIT that unlock the meaning of the NEW. If you have lost your key how will you open the door which is locked to those who do not BELIEVE God's WORD? * JOHN 10:7.

So far we have gone through everything you have posted, section by section and scripture by scripture in relation to God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the Sabbath. The outcome in every case is that you have taken scrpture out of CONTEXT this is proven in this post and the following posts which you have choosen to ignore and you have not responded to...

*Post # 199 linked click me;
*Post # 200 linked click me;
*Post # 219 linked click me;
*Post # 486 linked click me;
*Post # 487 linked click me;
*Post # 511 linked click me;
*Post # 561 linked click me;
*Post # 562 linked click me;
*Post # 563 linked click me;

Disagree? Please respond to the posts with all the scriptures in them showing the CONTEXT you have left out of the interpretation of the scriptures presented in your posts? If you cannot only God's WORD is true my friend and we should believe and follow it over man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God.

Hope this helps

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I totally agree, scripture has to be read as a cohesive whole. However, Pauls core message was. You cannot be justified/righteous by obeying the law, and it is plain from what you have been quoted he included the moral law in that. For: Thou shalt not covet is mor

No. While Paul does mention the Moral Law in the Old in Romans 7, his point is that this portion is not abrogated but it is still in effect. For Romans 8:3-4 says we fulfill the righteousness of the Law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin or the Law of Moses that is no more).

Clearly, the righteousness of the Law is Romans 13:8-10 (Which is to love your neighbor) because Paul says that love is the fulfillment of the Law (i.e. the Old Law).

For what does the righteousness of the Law mean to you in Romans 8:3-4?
Do you believe we are to fulfill this as it says?

Also, we know that the Moral Law is not abrogated as a part of what Paul is talking about in Romans 7 because he says elsewhere in Scripture in a number of places that the breaking of the Moral Law will cause one not to inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21), (Ephesians 5:3-4), (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

In fact, in Romans 8:13, Paul says,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

Meaning, if a believer lives one way like living after the flesh (sin), they are going to die spiritually.
But if they through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body (sin), they shall live spiritually.
For Paul is not concerned ultimately here in Romans 8 about our physical well being but our spiritual well being with God.

 

[Copperhead]

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:1-5

NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD [the GOSPEL] enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do not enter into that rest.

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

Just like the key in real estate is location, location, location. The key to sound Biblical exposition is context, context, context.

The word for rest in verse 9 can indeed mean a sabbath, but since the Greek word here is only used once in the entire NT, it is sloppy exposition to make doctrine out of it. And the context is entering the rest offered thru Yeshua. The subject of the passage is in verse 1...

Hebrews 4:1 (NKJV) Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.

The entire context is speaking of the rest of God. That is offered thru Yeshua, not a day. Thru Yeshua, we rest of trying to attain merit or favor with God.

Keep in mind the book is written to Hebrews. They already understand the weekly Shabbat, so it would seem ridiculously redundant to write to them and explain such a thing. The context suggests something totally different than a weekly Shabbat. Indeed, it has the rest of God thru Yeshua in view.

The entire context of Hebrews is to show how Yeshua is greater than the Torah, the Prophets, Moses, the Priesthood, etc. Hebrews is pure apologetic directed at Hebrews, especially unbelieving Hebrews. That is a position held by many Messianic Jewish expositors. They understand the context.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Just like the key in real estate is location, location, location. The key to sound Biblical exposition is context, context, context.

The word for rest in verse 9 can indeed mean a sabbath, but since the Greek word here is only used once in the entire NT, it is sloppy exposition to make doctrine out of it. And the context is entering the rest offered thru Yeshua. The subject of the passage is in verse 1...

Hebrews 4:1 (NKJV) Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.

The entire context is speaking of the rest of God. That is offered thru Yeshua, not a day. Thru Yeshua, we rest of trying to attain merit or favor with God.

Keep in mind the book is written to Hebrews. They already understand the weekly Shabbat, so it would seem ridiculously redundant to write to them and explain such a thing. The context suggests something totally different than a weekly Shabbat. Indeed, it has the rest of God thru Yeshua in view.

The entire context of Hebrews is to show how Yeshua is greater than the Torah, the Prophets, Moses, the Priesthood, etc. Hebrews is pure apologetic directed at Hebrews, especially unbelieving Hebrews. That is a position held by many Messianic Jewish expositors. They understand the context.

Sorry brother Copper, ignoring God's WORD and speaking our words over God's word is not demonstrating your point.

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT was indeed demonstrated in the full post which you partly quote that looks at HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4 collectively. This post also demonstrated that "GOD'S REST" as referred to in HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4:1-5 is God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST. Enough talking let God's WORD talk... (the full post, posted earlier)

............

HEBREWS 3 AND HEBREWS 4 THE GOSPEL AND THE SABBABTH

HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4. These chapters also link very nicely into PSLAMS 95 if you have some time to read it but we will not touch on PSALMS 95 in this post.

For this post let's look at HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4 and within Chapter and Scripture context highlighting what the scriptures are saying...

Hebrews 3
[8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
[11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into MY REST.
[12], Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
[15], While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[16], For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17], But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
[18], And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
[19], So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

..............

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 3

v8-10 God's people in the wilderness erred and hardened their hearts not knowing God's ways
v11 Because they hardened their hearts not knowing God's way God was angry and did not let them enter HIS REST
v13 Hardness of heart comes from the deceitfulness of SIN (breaking God's LAW)
v19 God's people did not enter into God's REST because of UNBELIEF

..............

WHAT IS HIS REST (God's) IN HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?

HEBREWS 4
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:1-5

NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD [the GOSPEL] enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do not enter into that rest.

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

................

INTERLINEAR HEBREWS 4:9

αρα απολειπεται σαββατισμος τω λαω του θεου
So then there remains a Sabbath rest to the people - of God

................

Parallel translations of HEBREWS 4:9

New International Version
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

English Standard Version
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,

Berean Study Bible
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Berean Literal Bible
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

New American Standard Bible
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God's people.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God's people.

International Standard Version
There remains, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God to keep,

NET Bible
Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God.

New Heart English Bible
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

New American Standard 1977
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

American Standard Version
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.

Darby Bible Translation
There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.

English Revised Version
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.

Weymouth New Testament
It follows that there still remains a sabbath rest for the people of God.

World English Bible
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Young's Literal Translation
there doth remain, then, a Sabbatic rest to the people of God,

................

continuing...

[10], For he that is entered into his rest (v9 SABBATH REST), he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
[11], Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (Heb 3).

................

CONCLUSION: Yep lots of scripture here showing that if you do not enter into God's Gospel rest you cannot enter his SABBATH REST. v 1-4 is the context of the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH confirmed in v9-11 Hebrews 3-4 is talking about the Gospel and the keeping of God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH by BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. "There remains therefore a SABBATH rest to the people of God. Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" v9-11. HEBREWS 4 supports the keeping of the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH by believing and following the Word of God.

...............

WORD MEANING FOR REST (out of interest)

Now let's compare Matthew 11:28-30 with Hebrews 4

MATTHEW 11:28-30 [28], Come to me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29], Take my yoke on you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. [30], For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

STRONGS GREEK REST meaning; G373 ἀναπαύω anapauo (a-na-pav'-ō) v. 1. (reflexively) to repose, to rest. 2. (literally or figuratively) to be exempt, to remain. 3. (by implication) to refresh. [from G303 and G3973] KJV: take ease, refresh, (give, take) rest Root(s): G303, G3973

G303 ἀνά ana (a-na') prep. 1. (properly) up. 2. (by extension, used distributively) amidst or severally, etc. 3. (by implication, as a prefix) (it often means) repetition (again), intensity, reversal, etc. 4. apiece. 5. (of combined motion) back. 6. (with G3319) through (the midst).

G3973 παύω pauo (pav'-ō) v. to stop, i.e. restrain, quit, desist, come to an end.
{transitively or intransitively} [a primary verb (“pause”)] KJV: cease, leave, refrain

....................

Now compare this GREEK word used here to the one used in Hebrews 4:9...

HEBREWS 4:9 SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH

The Greek Word used here is different.

STRONGS GREEK/HEBERW REST meaning of Hebrews 4:9; G4520 σαββατισμός sabbatismos (sab-ba-tiz-mos') n. 1. a “sabbatism.” 2. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven). [from a derivative of G4521] σάββατον sabbaton (saɓ'-ɓa-ton) n. 1. the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath). 2. a day of weekly repose from secular avocations. 3. the observance or institution itself. 4. (by extension) a week, i.e. the interval between two Sabbaths. 5. likewise the plural in all the above applications.

[of Hebrew origin (H7676)] שַׁבָּת shabbath (shab-bawth') n-e. 1. intermission, a period of temporary rest. 2. (specifically) the Sabbath, the seventh day being the day of rest.

[intensive from H7673] H7673 שָׁבַת shabath (shaw-ɓath') v. to repose, i.e. to cease from exertion. {used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific)} [a primitive root] KJV: (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep sabbath, suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.

....................

As you can see from the different GREEK words used in Matthew 11:28 and Hebrews 4:9 both words are indeed different and have a different application.

Both are similar referring to rest but the word REST in Hebrews 4:9 in is reference "Sabbatismos" which is the "REST" specifically found in God's Sabbath the 4th Commandment that refers right back the Hebrew WORD used for rest in Genesis 2.

Let's look at the origin of the Sabbath and God's 4th Commandment...

GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[2], And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. [3], And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

[intensive from H7673] H7673 שָׁבַת shabath (shaw-ɓath') v. to repose, i.e. to cease from exertion. {used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific)} [a primitive root] KJV: (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep sabbath, suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.

The above HEBREW meaning is the base root of Sabbatismos from the GREEK word used in Hebrews 4:9 which is referring right back to the origin of God's Sabbath in Genesis 2 and God's 4th Commandment in Exodus 20:8-11.

The meaning here is the REST that comes specifically from BELIEVING and OBEYING Gods WORD' from God's 4th Commandment Sabbath. This is the SABBATH rest according to the commandment.

......................

Those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

.......................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

So in summary no one enters into GOD'S REST of the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH without first entering into the GOSPEL REST of BELIEVING and FOLLOWING his WORD.

Hope this helps Copper

 

[Copperhead]

Alerady did in the post that followed showing the scriptures that disagree with you. You have not responded to this post but have simply ignored the scriptures that disagree with you. Disagee? Its your turn. simply ignoring God's WORD does not make it dissappear.

No you didn't. You just said I took it out of context. There are many theologians who would disagree with you. Ezekiel 4 is very much in context in relation to the year of punishment upon Jacob and the prescription in Leviticus 26 if they remained in rebellion.

After the 70 year exile was up, which was punishment for the number of Jubilee years the people had failed to honor, the decree to return was issued. But the majority of the Hebrews decided to remain in Babylon instead of returning to the land. YHVH says in Ezekiel 36:20. So the majority remained in rebellion of the Lord. So Leviticus 26 kicked in. The math is simple and accurate.

I go agree, simply ignoring God's word does not make it disappear.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No you didn't. You just said I took it out of context. There are many theologians who would disagree with you. Ezekiel 4 is very much in context in relation to the year of punishment upon Jacob and the prescription in Leviticus 26 if they remained in rebellion.

After the 70 year exile was up, which was punishment for the number of Jubilee years the people had failed to honor, the decree to return was issued. But the majority of the Hebrews decided to remain in Babylon instead of returning to the land. YHVH says in Ezekiel 36:20. So the majority remained in rebellion of the Lord. So Leviticus 26 kicked in. The math is simple and accurate.

I go agree, simply ignoring God's word does not make it disappear.

Not really brother Copper, as the post above yours shows you are the one leaving out context and your own accusations have fallen back on your own head. Disagree? Prove it? Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

 

[Archippus]

No. While Paul does mention the Moral Law in the Old in Romans 7, his point is that this portion is not abrogated but it is still in effect. For Romans 8:3-4 says we fulfill the righteousness of the Law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin or the Law of Moses that is no more).

Clearly, the righteousness of the Law is Romans 13:8-10 (Which is to love your neighbor) because Paul says that love is the fulfillment of the Law (i.e. the Old Law).

For what does the righteousness of the Law mean to you in Romans 8:3-4?
Do you believe we are to fulfill this as it says?

Also, we know that the Moral Law is not abrogated as a part of what Paul is talking about in Romans 7 because he says elsewhere in Scripture in a number of places that the breaking of the Moral Law will cause one not to inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21), (Ephesians 5:3-4), (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

In fact, in Romans 8:13, Paul says,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

Meaning, if a believer lives one way like living after the flesh (sin), they are going to die spiritually.
But if they through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body (sin), they shall live spiritually.
For Paul is not concerned ultimately here in Romans 8 about our physical well being but our spiritual well being with God.

Pauls point in romans ch7 is that you cannot be justified/righteous by obeying the law(moral law was given as an example), for the letter of that law kills(2Cor3:6)
The law is indeed, holy, righteous and good, however, the law has no power to make you righteous, it condemns you:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sinRom3:20
You have to differentiate between choosing to live a sinfull lifestyle, and hating your imperfections(which we all have)
However, this conversation is about righteousness/justification, and Paul is clear on the matter, you cannot be justified by obeying the law. And as Paul stated he faultlessly observed the legalistic law, he obviously could have been righteous before God concerning that specific law. Christ stated the Pharisees cleaned the outside of the cup, they obeyed the law men could see. But on the inside they were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean. That is breaking the moral law. You wouldn't find it too difficult(though maybe tiresome) to obey the legalistic Levitical laws, but you are not perfect in your flesh are you? You do not perfectly obey the ;law relating to the inner man. Therefore you also break the moral law. But do you do so happily with no conscience, or are you grieved by those imperfections? That is the piint
You have not been able to give me one law handed down at Sanai(non moral law) the Pharisees failed to keep. If you paused and reflected on this, it should be obvious the problem of obedience was always the moral law, not the legalistic law.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Pauls point in romans ch7 is that you cannot be justified/righteous by obeying the law(moral law was given as an example), for the letter of that law kills(2Cor3:6)
The law is indeed, holy, righteous and good, however, the law has no power to make you righteous, it condemns you:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sinRom3:20
You have to differentiate between choosing to live a sinfull lifestyle, and hating your imperfections(which we all have)
However, this conversation is about righteousness/justification, and Paul is clear on the matter, you cannot be justified by obeying the law. And as Paul stated he faultlessly observed the legalistic law, he obviously could have been righteous before God concerning that specific law. Christ stated the Pharisees cleaned the outside of the cup, they obeyed the law men could see. But on the inside they were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean. That is breaking the moral law. You wouldn't find it too difficult(though maybe tiresome) to obey the legalistic Levitical laws, but you are not perfect in your flesh are you? You do not perfectly obey the ;law relating to the inner man. Therefore you also break the moral law. But do you do so happily with no conscience, or are you grieved by those imperfections? That is the piint
You have not been able to give me one law handed down at Sanai(non moral law) the Pharisees failed to keep. If you paused and reflected on this, it should be obvious the problem of obedience was always the moral law, not the legalistic law.

Hi Archippus, nice to meet you and welcome to the thread.

Great points and good post which I mostly agree with. This is the point of the NEW COVENANT and the role of God's LAW in showing us our need of Christ our Saviour. It leads us to the NEW COVENANT promise of a new heart to LOVE and LOVE is the fulfilling or establsihing of God's LAW in the heart of the believer (Romans 3:20; Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31). Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother.

May God bless you as you seek him through his WORD

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Can anyone please show me where in all the bible does is say (SOLA SCRIPTURA; Scripture only please)... That the Sabbath or any of God's commandments are only for the JEWS?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Pauls point in romans ch7 is that you cannot be justified/righteous by obeying the law(moral law was given as an example), for the letter of that law kills(2Cor3:6)
The law is indeed, holy, righteous and good, however, the law has no power to make you righteous, it condemns you:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sinRom3:20
You have to differentiate between choosing to live a sinfull lifestyle, and hating your imperfections(which we all have)
However, this conversation is about righteousness/justification, and Paul is clear on the matter, you cannot be justified by obeying the law. And as Paul stated he faultlessly observed the legalistic law, he obviously could have been righteous before God concerning that specific law. Christ stated the Pharisees cleaned the outside of the cup, they obeyed the law men could see. But on the inside they were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean. That is breaking the moral law. You wouldn't find it too difficult(though maybe tiresome) to obey the legalistic Levitical laws, but you are not perfect in your flesh are you? You do not perfectly obey the ;law relating to the inner man. Therefore you also break the moral law. But do you do so happily with no conscience, or are you grieved by those imperfections? That is the piint
You have not been able to give me one law handed down at Sanai(non moral law) the Pharisees failed to keep. If you paused and reflected on this, it should be obvious the problem of obedience was always the moral law, not the legalistic law.

While the Pharisees put on an open show, they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, mercy, and faith.

We also know that Pharisees did not have a high regard for confessing their sins to God, either. In the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, the Pharisee did not humble himself and cry out to God over his sins. The pharisee made it all about law as a means of salvation. So yes. I am against those who think they can be saved by "Law Alone." This is what Paul was fighting against.

But... Notice. Do you notice it? Do you notice how you did not address the verses I brought forth about how Paul said that certain sins can condemn a person? Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and Ephesians 5:3-5. Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if there is no fear? You did not even attempt to tackle 1-2 verses I brought forth in my previous post to you that had the spoiler button. Did you even look at the verses? I know. You can't be bothered. You want to believe the way you do because it is comforting. But just because something is comforting does not mean that thing is the truth. So I ask you to deal with the truth please. Please address these verses.

Also, can you explain to me how your belief is moral and good?
IMO ~ In order for a grievous sin and still be saved type belief to work, God would have to agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin with God saving them. But can God agree with sin? Surely not. This is yet another conundrum in your belief that makes it self implode in on itself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Pauls point in romans ch7 is that you cannot be justified/righteous by obeying the law(moral law was given as an example),

No. Paul does not say that if you seek to not murder, Christ will profit you nothing. Paul says in Galatians 5:2 that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Paul does not say that keeping the Moral Law means you have fallen from God's grace. We already know that Paul condemns those who break the Moral Law (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:3-5). This is also confirmed by Jesus (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:30, Matthew 25:31-46) and it is confirmed by John (John 3:20, 1 John 3:15) and it is confirmed by Peter (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

for the letter of that law kills(2Cor3:6)

It's called the letter of the Law that kills because the Law of Moses could physically kill you if you disobeyed it. Do you remember when the Pharisees quoted from the OT in order to stone a woman caught in the act of adultery?

For it is clear Paul is talking about the Law of Moses here.

"...written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (2 Corinthians 3:3).

What was written on tablets of stone?

The Law of Moses.

So is Paul talking about the very Scriptures he is writing?

No.

The Commands or Laws on the Moral are repeated in the New Testament by Jesus and His followers.

The law is indeed, holy, righteous and good, however, the law has no power to make you righteous, it condemns you:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law,

Law Alone. Paul is saying we cannot be righteous by observing the Law Alone. Nowhere is Paul saying this as a Christian who is under God's grace.
The Pharisees did not have grace.
Remember, they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (Which obviously is a part of God's grace).

rather through the law we become conscious of sinRom3:20

Romans 3:20 is in context to the Law of Moses and to condemning the idea that we are saved by Law Alone. Paul is in part making a case against "Circumcision Salvationism" and He is trying to defend how we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. For Romans 3:1 says what advantage is there of the Jew? What advantage is there in circumcision? Meaning, there were some folks (Kind of like the Sabbatarians here) who were trying to push the idea that a ceremonial Law from the Law of Moses is what one needs to obey as a part of being right with God. But Paul says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (See Galatians 5:2).

You have to differentiate between choosing to live a sinfull lifestyle, and hating your imperfections(which we all have)

Not good enough. It is still a compromise on the idea that it is still okay to sin on some level and to be a slave to sin. Who gets to decide the difference between a sinful lifestyle and a life full of imperfections? Both are justifications in doing sin if you ask me. Just because somebody hates the kind of sin that they do, does not make it okay. An axe murderer may not like what he does, but if he still kills people, it still wrong. He may even murder every once a decade. Does the infrequency of his sin make it better vs. say every day? Surely not. Also, I would say that if grace is as you say.... then you should not be able to out sin grace. If grace is truly to cover a believer's sin past, present, and future, then it does not matter how they live in any way. They can live the most immoral life and or live like the devil and still be saved.

However, this conversation is about righteousness/justification, and Paul is clear on the matter, you cannot be justified by obeying the law. And as Paul stated he faultlessly observed the legalistic law, he obviously could have been righteous before God concerning that specific law.

Are you appealing to me on some moral level here?
You make it sound like it is bad.
How is it bad?
Is obeying the Moral Law bad as a part of being in God's Kingdom?
How is that bad morally to obey God's good ways as a part of being in His Kingdom? Do you honestly think it takes away from Christ's sacrifice? You need to read Ephesians 5:25-28 and Titus 2:14 to see the reason or end goal as to why Christ died for us (if you are thinking that way).
Or do you think doing sin and or minimizing sin is a better option with God? Meaning, we can just hurt people and or sleep around with others and or be fowl mouthed it should matter not to God because we got His grace. But this would be a contradiction of the Scripture and a violation of basic morality.
Are morals truly in conflict with God's grace and or the goodness with God?
That is why I don't understand the kind of belief you hold to.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God calls us unto salvation through belief of the truth and Sanctification.

Christ stated the Pharisees cleaned the outside of the cup, they obeyed the law men could see. But on the inside they were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean.

This would describe the person who thinks they can sin and still be saved, no?
They put on a show that they are for holiness, but when push comes to shove they deny that you have to actually live holy. To prove it. Let me ask you a question.

Was David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
Most I have talked with who believe as you do, say.... "yes."

That is breaking the moral law. You wouldn't find it too difficult(though maybe tiresome) to obey the legalistic Levitical laws, but you are not perfect in your flesh are you? You do not perfectly obey the ;law relating to the inner man. Therefore you also break the moral law. But do you do so happily with no conscience, or are you grieved by those imperfections? That is the piint
You have not been able to give me one law handed down at Sanai(non moral law) the Pharisees failed to keep. If you paused and reflected on this, it should be obvious the problem of obedience was always the moral law, not the legalistic law.

My life is not the standard. God's Word is the standard. We also walk by faith and not by sight. I believe God's Word and not you. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. 1 Peter 4:2 says that we should live the rest of our time (here on this Earth obviously) not to the lusts of the flesh (sin) but to the will of God. Verse like these have to be erased or twisted in order to fit your belief.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Archippus said: rather through the law we become conscious of sinRom3:20

Romans 3:20 is in context to the Law of Moses and to condemning the idea that we are saved by Law Alone. Paul is in part making a case against "Circumcision Salvationism" and He is trying to defend how we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. For Romans 3:1 says what advantage is there of the Jew? What advantage is there in circumcision? Meaning, there were some folks (Kind of like the Sabbatarians here) who were trying to push the idea that a ceremonial Law from the Law of Moses is what one needs to obey as a part of being right with God. But Paul says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (See Galatians 5:2).

Hello Jason, your response to Archippus shows a lot of confusion to ROMANS 3:20

Paul says in ROMANS 3:20 [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN. Are you seriously trying to argue that the scripture does not mean what it says? The CONTEXT of ROMANS 3:20 is ROMANS 3:9-20 which is stating that all [JEWS and GENTILES] are under sin v9. There is none righteous v10. While v11-18 are emphasizing the same points as v9-10 that we are all sinners. v19-20 then build on wha was written in from verse 9 [verse 9 was in reference to ROMANS 2:3-23]. Now the overall CONTEXT here is that the law being referred to here is the 10 Commandments.

ALL are under sin 3v9. None are righteous no not one 3v10. Context..

ROMANS 2:21-29 [21],
[21], You therefore which teach another, teach you not yourself? you that preach a man should not steal, do you steal?
[22], You that say a man should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? you that abhor idols, do you commit sacrilege?
[23], You that make your boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonor you God?
[24], For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
[25], For circumcision truly profits, if you keep the law: but if you be a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision.

NOTE: How is your circumcision made uncircumcision? By breaking the 10 commandments!

[26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
[27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law?
[28], For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
[29], But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So it is very clear that when PAUL writes ROMANS 3:19-20...

ROMANS 3:19-20 [19],
[19], Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Is in reference to the 10 commandments giving us a knowledge of what sin is.

PAUL emphasizes this further in ROMANS 7..

ROMANS 7:7 [7], What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT BY THE LAW: FOR I HAD NOT KNOWN LUST, EXCEPT THE LAW HAD SAID, YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

NOTE: Paul says he did not know what sin was but by the law. This is what he said earlier in ROMANS 3:20 when he said that it is by God's LAW that we have a KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. The law defined here is specified as the 10 Commandments as highlighted in Romans 2:4-29 and Romans 3:9-20 which specifies as examples in ROMANS 2:21-23 giving examples of stealing, adultery and Idol worship quoting the 10 commandments from Exodus 20:4-5; 14-14. Romans 7:7 is continuing this same thought by quoting the tenth commandment of you shall not covet as an example of sin if broken from Exodus 20:17.

So the law referenced here that gives us a KNOWLEDGE of sin, is indeed referring to the 10 Commandments (not nine as you teach) and not the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT (Exodus 24:7) for remission of sin.

Happy to provide more scripture on the topic but I believe there is no point. You may need to revisit your bible Brother Jason. As to the other things your proclaiming how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is if you are yet to understand what the OLD COVENANT was? The OLD TESTAMENT scriptures are the key that unlocks the NEW. If you have lost your key how can you open a locked door * JOHN 10:9?

Sorry Jason, God's WORD disagrees with your teachings.

Hope this helps

 

[Archippus]

While the Pharisees put on an open show, they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, mercy, and faith.

We also know that Pharisees did not have a high regard for confessing their sins to God, either. In the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, the Pharisee did not humble himself and cry out to God over his sins. The pharisee made it all about law as a means of salvation. So yes. I am against those who think they can be saved by "Law Alone." This is what Paul was fighting against.

But... Notice. Do you notice it? Do you notice how you did not address the verses I brought forth about how Paul said that certain sins can condemn a person? Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and Ephesians 5:3-5. Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if there is no fear? You did not even attempt to tackle 1-2 verses I brought forth in my previous post to you that had the spoiler button. Did you even look at the verses? I know. You can't be bothered. You want to believe the way you do because it is comforting. But just because something is comforting does not mean that thing is the truth. So I ask you to deal with the truth please. Please address these verses.

Also, can you explain to me how your belief is moral and good?
IMO ~ In order for a grievous sin and still be saved type belief to work, God would have to agree with a believer's thinking that they can sin with God saving them. But can God agree with sin? Surely not. This is yet another conundrum in your belief that makes it self implode in on itself.

I have already addressed your Gal5:19-21 verse, which incorporates your other verses also. You are not perfect in your flesh, so you also break the moral law, but does that mean you are included in Gal5:19-21? No

! For those verses apply to people who choose to live such a lifestyle. There is a world of difference between choosing to live a sinfull life without conscience, and hating your imperfections, which we all have.
Thankyou for confirming you cannot produce one of the 613 laws handed down at Sanai(non moral laws) that the Pharisees failed to adhere to.
How is my belief moral and good?
For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law(of righteousness) but under grace Rom6:14
Your problem my friend is not understanding the basics of the new covenant, many do not, this is even more true on the internet.

 

[Archippus]

No. Paul does not say that if you seek to not murder, Christ will profit you nothing. Paul says in Galatians 5:2 that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Paul does not say that keeping the Moral Law means you have fallen from God's grace. We already know that Paul condemns those who break the Moral Law (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:3-5). This is also confirmed by Jesus (Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:30, Matthew 25:31-46) and it is confirmed by John (John 3:20, 1 John 3:15) and it is confirmed by Peter (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).



It's called the letter of the Law that kills because the Law of Moses could physically kill you if you disobeyed it. Do you remember when the Pharisees quoted from the OT in order to stone a woman caught in the act of adultery?

For it is clear Paul is talking about the Law of Moses here.

"...written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (2 Corinthians 3:3).

What was written on tablets of stone?

The Law of Moses.

So is Paul talking about the very Scriptures he is writing?

No.

The Commands or Laws on the Moral are repeated in the New Testament by Jesus and His followers.



Law Alone. Paul is saying we cannot be righteous by observing the Law Alone. Nowhere is Paul saying this as a Christian who is under God's grace.
The Pharisees did not have grace.
Remember, they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (Which obviously is a part of God's grace).



Romans 3:20 is in context to the Law of Moses and to condemning the idea that we are saved by Law Alone. Paul is in part making a case against "Circumcision Salvationism" and He is trying to defend how we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. For Romans 3:1 says what advantage is there of the Jew? What advantage is there in circumcision? Meaning, there were some folks (Kind of like the Sabbatarians here) who were trying to push the idea that a ceremonial Law from the Law of Moses is what one needs to obey as a part of being right with God. But Paul says that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (See Galatians 5:2).



Not good enough. It is still a compromise on the idea that it is still okay to sin on some level and to be a slave to sin. Who gets to decide the difference between a sinful lifestyle and a life full of imperfections? Both are justifications in doing sin if you ask me. Just because somebody hates the kind of sin that they do, does not make it okay. An axe murderer may not like what he does, but if he still kills people, it still wrong. He may even murder every once a decade. Does the infrequency of his sin make it better vs. say every day? Surely not. Also, I would say that if grace is as you say.... then you should not be able to out sin grace. If grace is truly to cover a believer's sin past, present, and future, then it does not matter how they live in any way. They can live the most immoral life and or live like the devil and still be saved.



Are you appealing to me on some moral level here?
You make it sound like it is bad.
How is it bad?
Is obeying the Moral Law bad as a part of being in God's Kingdom?
How is that bad morally to obey God's good ways as a part of being in His Kingdom? Do you honestly think it takes away from Christ's sacrifice? You need to read Ephesians 5:25-28 and Titus 2:14 to see the reason or end goal as to why Christ died for us (if you are thinking that way).
Or do you think doing sin and or minimizing sin is a better option with God? Meaning, we can just hurt people and or sleep around with others and or be fowl mouthed it should matter not to God because we got His grace. But this would be a contradiction of the Scripture and a violation of basic morality.
Are morals truly in conflict with God's grace and or the goodness with God?
That is why I don't understand the kind of belief you hold to.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God calls us unto salvation through belief of the truth and Sanctification.



This would describe the person who thinks they can sin and still be saved, no?
They put on a show that they are for holiness, but when push comes to shove they deny that you have to actually live holy. To prove it. Let me ask you a question.

Was David saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?
Most I have talked with who believe as you do, say.... "yes."



My life is not the standard. God's Word is the standard. We also walk by faith and not by sight. I believe God's Word and not you. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. 1 Peter 4:2 says that we should live the rest of our time (here on this Earth obviously) not to the lusts of the flesh (sin) but to the will of God. Verse like these have to be erased or twisted in order to fit your belief.

Your statement Pauls usage of the words: The letter kills refers to simply Moses law shows your error of understanding:
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 2Cor3:6-9

The only law engraved on stone was the Ten Commandments/moral law. Therefore it is this law Paul states is the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. You are in grave error. So when Paul states:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin(Rom 3:20) he is referring primarily to the law of the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation/moral law. I repeat, Saul the Pharisee could faultlessly observe the non moral law, therefore by that law he could indeed be justified by observing the law, as could every other Pharisee I imagine concerning the legalistic law handed down at Sanai.
You cannot be justified by law and faith, it is one or the other:
The law is not based on faith Gal3:12

For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. Rom 4:14

That is quite plainly written. Why does law bring wrath? Because you cannot faultlessly obey the moral law, you can faultlessly obey the legalistic law, therefore the legalistic law is not being mentioned in the above. The example Paul gave as to why he had to die to the law, came from the moral, not legalistic law. And please notice, the ministry that brings righteousness(2Cor3:9) is not based on obeying the moral law, for the letter of that law kills(the law engraved on stone/Ten Commandments)
As you yourself have imperfections, you are condemning yourself if you say there is no difference between hating your imperfections and a wilfull, sinfull lifestyle without conscience.
To sum up, your view, that Paul is stating you cannot be justified by obeying legalistic law that is not applicable under the new covenant, but you can be justified by obeying moral law under the new covenant is, frankly nonsensical. For I will yet again repeat, non applicable law under the new covenant could be faultlessly obeyed, therefore Paul would not relentlessly state you cannot be justified by law you can faultlessly obey.

 

[Archippus]

My life is not the standard. God's Word is the standard. We also walk by faith and not by sight. I believe God's Word and not you. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. 1 Peter 4:2 says that we should live the rest of our time (here on this Earth obviously) not to the lusts of the flesh (sin) but to the will of God. Verse like these have to be erased or twisted in order to fit your belief.

BTW
Have you ceased from ALL sin? Do you faultlessly obey the entire moral law, without slip? Do you faultlessly obey the law relating to the inner man, the law only you and God need know you break? Or, do you know you have imperfections, but hate them, for you want to live an evermore Christlike life?
Be careful not to align yourself with the guilt of the Pharisees. And you need to read the bible as a cohesive whole. If you never commit any sin, what need do you have of a saviour from sin?

I see no point in continuing this. My hope is, one day you will come to understand the new covenant the Christian is under.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your statement Pauls usage of the words: The letter kills refers to simply Moses law shows your error of understanding:
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 2Cor3:6-9

The only law engraved on stone was the Ten Commandments/moral law. Therefore it is this law Paul states is the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. You are in grave error. So when Paul states:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin(Rom 3:20) he is referring primarily to the law of the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation/moral law. I repeat, Saul the Pharisee could faultlessly observe the non moral law, therefore by that law he could indeed be justified by observing the law, as could every other Pharisee I imagine concerning the legalistic law handed down at Sanai.
You cannot be justified by law and faith, it is one or the other:
The law is not based on faith Gal3:12

For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. Rom 4:14

That is quite plainly written. Why does law bring wrath? Because you cannot faultlessly obey the moral law, you can faultlessly obey the legalistic law, therefore the legalistic law is not being mentioned in the above. The example Paul gave as to why he had to die to the law, came from the moral, not legalistic law. And please notice, the ministry that brings righteousness(2Cor3:9) is not based on obeying the moral law, for the letter of that law kills(the law engraved on stone/Ten Commandments)
As you yourself have imperfections, you are condemning yourself if you say there is no difference between hating your imperfections and a wilfull, sinfull lifestyle without conscience.
To sum up, your view, that Paul is stating you cannot be justified by obeying legalistic law that is not applicable under the new covenant, but you can be justified by obeying moral law under the new covenant is, frankly nonsensical. For I will yet again repeat, non applicable law under the new covenant could be faultlessly obeyed, therefore Paul would not relentlessly state you cannot be justified by law you can faultlessly obey.

Well, first, the Law brings wrath because:

(1) We are not under the Law of Moses
(2) We are not under a system of Law Alone Salvationism like the Pharisees (and never were).​

What you need to do is prove that Paul condemned trying to obey the Moral Law as a part of our salvation after we are saved by God's grace. I never get that impression when reading the Scriptures because Paul says elsewhere many times that if you commit certain sins, you will not inherit the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:3-5).

Romans 4:15 says the Law brings (or works) wrath. But what you are failing to point out is that the verse also says that it says there is no Law there is no transgression. So are you saying there is no sin or transgression or Law for you? Surely not. Sin still exists, right? Laws from God still exist in the New Testament. So when Paul says there is no Law, he is talking about the Law of Moses. If you were to go back to Romans 3:1, Paul says, what profit is there in circumcision? Again, circumcision is of the Law of Moses and not of the Law given to us by Jesus and His followers. So Paul is talking about the Law of Moses and not the Laws given to us by Jesus and His followers. Paul is also trying to make a case for grace, as well. He is trying to say that we are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus.

I mean, why on Earth would Jesus say to certain believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin) if we are not under the Moral Law... salvation wise? See Matthew 7:23. I say this because Jesus did not say.... depart from me because you did not believe in me alone for your salvation while ignoring morality. In fact, Matthew 7:26-27 (the context) says that if we do not do what Jesus says, we are like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

Second, again, the letter kills because you could physically be put to death under the Law of Moses. The letter does not kill me today because I am not under the letter of the Old Law. Romans 7:6 says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. This lets us know that we are not to go back to the Law of Moses and we are to obey Jesus and His followers under the writings of the New Testament (Which is by the Spirit).

Three, your blind accusations about my life when you do not know all of my life does not really prove anything. Our case should never be by sight anyways but by faith in God's Word. As I said before, it would not matter if nobody obeyed God. That is not proof that God's good ways are true or not. For if you lived during the time of Noah (Who is said to be a preacher of righteousness), and you heard Noah's message of righteousness, you would probably use the same excuse you are using now by pointing out to Noah how none of his neighbors live righteously as per his proof that nobody can live righteously. Yet, the whole world at that time was in wickedness. Only Noah and his family were spared.

Four, you are still not dealing with the verses I have brought up that destroys your belief here. Please address the verses I have brought forth and explain them (if you can).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

BTW
Have you ceased from ALL sin? Do you faultlessly obey the entire moral law, without slip? Do you faultlessly obey the law relating to the inner man, the law only you and God need know you break? Or, do you know you have imperfections, but hate them, for you want to live an evermore Christlike life?
Be careful not to align yourself with the guilt of the Pharisees. And you need to read the bible as a cohesive whole. If you never commit any sin, what need do you have of a saviour from sin?

I see no point in continuing this. My hope is, one day you will come to understand the new covenant the Christian is under.

If I told you I kept the Moral Law and loved God and my neighbor most days of my life, you would not believe me. If I told you that I might stumble on rare occasion, you would try and use that as saying,

"Ah ha! See.... you fail and cannot keep God's law!"​

But again, my life is not the standard. If God's Word teaches that you can overcome sin, you can most certainly do that. There are many verses that teach how you can overcome sin. But my guess is that you would not even be open to hearing them because you do not want to overcome sin.

Besides, you are not explaining 1 Peter 4:1-2 and Galatians 5:24. Explain to me 2 Corinthians 7:1. Do you really believe you can cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh perfecting holiness in the fear of God? I mean no offense, but my guess is that you don't believe that verse (like many others). You have to believe in a holey Bible (like swiss cheese) and not a Holy Bible. Well, if you believe otherwise, then you need to show me the explanation to these verses that fits the context and makes sense. But I know you cannot do that because I have asked OSAS Proponents or Non-OSAS sin and still be saved believers (Free Will Baptists) to explain these verses and they failed miserably in doing that.

 

[Archippus]

If I told you I kept the Moral Law and loved God and my neighbor most days of my life, you would not believe me. If I told you that I might stumble on rare occasion, you would try and use that as an "Ah ha" see.... you fail and cannot keep God's law! But again, my life is not the standard. If God's Word teaches that you can overcome sin, you can most certainly do that. There are many verses that teach how you can overcome sin. But my guess is that you would not even be open to hearing them because you do not want to overcome sin.

Besides, you are not explaining 1 Peter 4:1-2 and Galatians 5:24. Explain to me 2 Corinthians 7:1. Do you really believe you can cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh perfecting holiness in the fear of God? My guess is that you don't believe that verse (like many others). You have to believe in a holey Bible (like swiss cheese) and not a Holy Bible. Well, if you believe otherwise, then you need to show me the explanation to these verses that fits the context and makes sense. But I know you cannot do that because I have asked OSAS Proponents or Non-OSAS sin and still be saved believers (Free Will Baptists) to explain these verses and they failed miserably in doing that.

As I previously told you, there is no point in continuing this Jason. LoveGodsword and myself have very plainly showed you Paul is primarily referring to the moral law in Rom3:20, alongside his numerous other statements concerning the believer having no righteousness/justification of obeying the law. He is not referring to the legalistic law that is not applicable under the new covenant. You refuse to accept it, so let us leave it there. It is my hope that one day you are willing to see the truth of the new covenant the Christian is under
God Bless