An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

[Neogaia777]

It's called "eternal death"... But, what is it...? In what kind of life or existence are you continually, eternally dying? and suffering, in constant sorrow, anguish, misery, or "whatever"...?

God Bless!

What does it mean that the second death shall have no power or authority or hold on them...? Is it because they've been through it already, and conquered and overcame by the blood (power and authority) of the Lamb (Cause of Christ with them and in them)...

God Bless!

There are one of two reasons God would allow someone to suffer... To glorify the saint, or to punish, (and maybe thereby hoping to purify, maybe), the evildoer...

God Bless!

 

[redleghunter]

There are one of two reasons God would allow someone to suffer... To glorify the saint, or to punish, (and maybe thereby hoping to purify, maybe), the evildoer...

God Bless!

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

 

[ClementofA]

Unfortunately the audience Paul spoke to were all living here in this temporal life.

It wasn't Paul who said what i posted:

"Mercy triumphs over judgement."

What you present is coerced conversion based on punishment. Much like the Spanish Inquisition.

That is another of your misrepresentations of what i present. Yet you provided no quote of anything i said to back it up.

Are these attempts at "coerced conversion based on punishment":

1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

Is that - your - belief, that God converts people by "coerced conversion based on punishment"?

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them alive for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it from the Sacred Scriptures.

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

 

[ClementofA]

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)

What do you think that says or proves?

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[Cement]

I'm open to either Interpretation on this topic. One thing annihilation has going for it is the passage where it states that Death will be ultimately destroyed. If death in the Bible is the separation then how could it still occur after it was destroyed?

 

[Dave-W]

where does it say that?

Genesis 3.

"In the day you eat of it you shall surely die."

They ate and immediately were separated from God.

 

[Dave-W]

the passage where it states that Death will be ultimately destroyed.

That is a weakness of English.
"Death" in that instance is speaking of a person, probably a fallen angel.

 

[HatGuy]

That is a weakness of English.
"Death" in that instance is speaking of a person, probably a fallen angel.

Is Hades, the Greek god, also real then?

 

[HatGuy]

The first question to ask in this debate is whether the soul is immortal by nature, or whether it is mortal (or conditionally immortal).

 

[Dave-W]

Is Hades, the Greek god, also real then?

All pagan "gods" had either fallen angels or demons behind them.
So, they all are in one sense "real." Just not real deity.

Deuteronomy 32:17
“They sacrificed to demons who were not God, To gods whom they have not known, New gods who came lately, Whom your fathers did not dread.

1 Corinthians 10:20
No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.

 

[redleghunter]

I'm open to either Interpretation on this topic. One thing annihilation has going for it is the passage where it states that Death will be ultimately destroyed. If death in the Bible is the separation then how could it still occur after it was destroyed?

Death and dead are never associated with annhilation in Scriptures.

The promises of eliminating death is found in the Hope of the Resurrection.

When our mortal bodies die there is a separation of the material body and immaterial inner man or soul/spirit. That is the definition of death. When we are joined with our incorruptible glorified bodies death is destroyed because there will never again be a separation of regenerated inner man and our bodies.

This is the Promise for those in Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

It wasn't Paul who said what i posted:

"Mercy triumphs over judgement."

See your quote I quoted. You paraphrase Paul in Romans.

What do you think that says or proves?

Exactly what it says. See Luke 16.

 

[Pneuma3]

He died--He paid the price. If the price had been eternal punishing in hell----then He didn't. Jesus also had His divinity--which we do not. He had the power to take up His life again, we do not. He must wake us up.
Joh_10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh_10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Funny how you can see that if eternal torment was correct then Jesus did not pay the price but cannot see that if annihilation is correct then Jesus did not pay the price.

If death = annihilation and Jesus paid the price of death then Jesus was annihilated.

 

[Pneuma3]

The saved get to be with Him and have eternal life, not the lost. The wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the price for the saved. The lost have refused His gift.

nonsense, Jesus paid the price for ALL, those who are whole need not a physician.

 

[Pneuma3]

I'm open to either Interpretation on this topic. One thing annihilation has going for it is the passage where it states that Death will be ultimately destroyed. If death in the Bible is the separation then how could it still occur after it was destroyed?

Death being destroyed completely is only found in the belief in universal salvation. Annihilationist have a problem with their understanding for if death mean annihilation why are people resurrected? how can they be resurrected once they have already been annihilated, to be judged and then re-annihilated makes absolutely no sense.

 

[HatGuy]

Death being destroyed completely is only found in the belief in universal salvation. Annihilationist have a problem with their understanding for if death mean annihilation why are people resurrected? how can they be resurrected once they have already been annihilated, to be judged and then re-annihilated makes absolutely no sense.

I'm going to just hypothesize here for the sake of discussion.

Firstly, Revelation as a "picture" book (it speaks in pictures) means that it describes the indescribable... Meaning not all it says ought to be taken literally.

Here's the hypothesis. It's possible that there is a spiritual resurrection when you die and it is at that point you are judged and then either experience the second death, or the second resurrection. (Spoken about in Revelation).

in other words, the dead are not raised physically for judgement but only spiritually for judgement. This happens when you die, and is essentially "outside of time". (Revelation offers a sort of linear time line for description, not to be taken literally). Then, second death means complete death; second resurrection to eternal life.

This then could explain how Jesus paid the price of the first death but then was judged favourably as the second Adam and then all those in Him are judged favourably too.

It's worth pondering if Jesus did pay the price of hell or if his substitution in our place is more along the lines of someone winning on our behalf (like a sports game) rather than someone losing the game instead of us losing it.

I offer these merely as thoughts, not as a hill to die on.

 

[mmksparbud]

Even in this life people get 2nd chances. Not only that, but 10th, 100th, 1,000th, etc.

Even - apostates - (1 Tim.1:19-20) were being given another chance:

19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!

Luke 17:4
Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."

Love covers a - multitude - of sins.

***Above all***, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

"Mercy triumphs over judgement" - Love Omnipotent (God)

You cannot sin beyond the ability of God's grace to save you:

"where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"

"I tell you, her sins--and they are many--have been forgiven"

If you want to know how much God loves you, look to the incarnation, life, sufferings, and crucifixion of Christ. His love & power for you are greater than the size of the universe:

That's in thus life. Nothing suggests that after death there are any more chances. God can not forgive what is not asked to be forgiven---that would be forcing salvation on someone--God won't do that. It is what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is,
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
To reject the Holy Ghost and not ask for forgiveness is blasphemy against it.

 

[mmksparbud]

Genesis 3.

"In the day you eat of it you shall surely die."

They ate and immediately were separated from God.

That was not death. He still appeared to them and talked to them face to face after that. The word day in that verse is different from the word day in Gen 1. Gen 1 is yom. --this verse is beyom in the original Hebrew. Gen 1 is 24 hours, this verse is an age. They did die.

 

[mmksparbud]

nonsense, Jesus paid the price for ALL, those who are whole need not a physician.

He paid the price for all----if they believe and accept it.

Luk_8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Act_16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act_16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom_10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom_10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1Pe_4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

 

[mmksparbud]

Funny how you can see that if eternal torment was correct then Jesus did not pay the price but cannot see that if annihilation is correct then Jesus did not pay the price.

If death = annihilation and Jesus paid the price of death then Jesus was annihilated.

Jesus did not pay the 2nd death---the 2nd death is the final death. We all die. We will all be resurrected to face judgement--the saved will be resurrected when Jesus returns---the lost will be resurrected to face damnation and the lake of fire. There is no escape from the 2nd death as Jesus did not pay for that.
Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.