An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

[Pneuma3]

That is what He came to do. Jesus was not a sinner. He took the sins of the world and paid the price for sin which is death--

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

He paid that price for all---but they must believe and accept Him otherwise they die in their sins and must pay the price for themselves, which is death. God does not force salvation on anyone. We have the choice.
Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Pro_8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Where is the verse that states there is a 2nd chance after death?

If the penalty for sin is annihilation how was Jesus resurrected? And as we know Jesus was resurrected how can the penalty for sin be annihilation and yet Jesus still paid the penalty?
Do you not believe death is annihilation? Then Jesus most have been annihilated or He did not pay the penalty for sin.

 

[ClementofA]

Whatever you want to make of this---there is not one single word about anyone being saved after death and going to hell!!

See the many threads on this forum proving otherwise. Or:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

 

[Pneuma3]

There is no getting out of hell. No one has produced one verse declaring it.

Psalm 24: “Lift up your heads, O gates; be lifted up, O ancient doors!” The gates of death are closed; no one can return from there. There is no key for those iron doors.

Until

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

Nobody could could cross over the great gulf except He who holds the keys of hell and of DEATH.

 

[mmksparbud]

If the penalty for sin is annihilation how was Jesus resurrected? And as we know Jesus was resurrected how can the penalty for sin be annihilation and yet Jesus still paid the penalty?
Do you not believe death is annihilation? Then Jesus most have been annihilated or He did not pay the penalty for sin.

He died--He paid the price. If the price had been eternal punishing in hell----then He didn't. Jesus also had His divinity--which we do not. He had the power to take up His life again, we do not. He must wake us up.
Joh_10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh_10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

[mmksparbud]

See the many threads on this forum proving otherwise. Or:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

I've told you endlessly---I will not read this stuff. I do not want opinions I asked for biblical verses and obviously you can not provide them.

 

[mmksparbud]

Psalm 24: “Lift up your heads, O gates; be lifted up, O ancient doors!” The gates of death are closed; no one can return from there. There is no key for those iron doors.

Until

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

Nobody could could cross over the great gulf except He who holds the keys of hell and of DEATH.

Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Psa 24:2 For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Psa 24:6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
Psa 24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Psa 24:8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
Psa 24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
Psa 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

The saved get to be with Him and have eternal life, not the lost. The wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the price for the saved. The lost have refused His gift.

 

[Ripheus27]

[poster gives an aionian post]

That's great to know, and I suppose we are more or less on the same page at this moment (regarding this topic), but it is somewhat ironic how long your etymology post is.

 

[ClementofA]

I've told you endlessly---I will not read this stuff. I do not want opinions I asked for biblical verses and obviously you can not provide them.

What i referred you to has the verses.

Dozens of verses alleging endless annihilationism shown not to support it:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/annihilation-theory-verses-answered/6273/

Verses in support of Universalism:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[Neogaia777]

So, years ago, I saw an argument on this site that went, "The wages of sin are death; death/destruction is not continuing existence, either in torment or not; therefore, the wages of sin are not eternal conscious torment." Now, it struck me a while later that Apollyon the Destroyer in the Book of Revelation has locust-servants who cause inescapable (if temporary) torment and, very precisely, not death. So, it seems there is clear Biblical precedent for connecting the concept/word "death/destruction" with, nevertheless, continuous, or at least continuing, pain.

It's called "eternal death"... But, what is it...? In what kind of life or existence are you continually, eternally dying? and suffering, in constant sorrow, anguish, misery, or "whatever"...?

God Bless!

 

[mmksparbud]

What i referred you to has the verses.

Dozens of verses alleging endless annihilationism shown not to support it:

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/annihilation-theory-verses-answered/6273/

Verses in support of Universalism:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Sorry--but that is absolute baloney and there is nothing there that truly follows the word of God. There is not one single verse that states there is a 2nd chance after death and hell and this site does not provide that verse just endless chatter on their interpretations of verses.This concept of having a 2nd chance after death and hell is quite the most absurd thing I've heard. It is so blatantly anti-scripture. God is mercy, and He is also justice--true and total justice and He will eradicate sin and sinners. That is more than obvious and these people are leading others into a path not taught in scripture and is quite anti-Christ. We are all free to come to our own decisions and if that is the road you choose to go on, it is your right. I feel for those you lead astray. At most, with the decision to see hell and annihilation in what I feel is the scriptural state, I would be very surprised if God said there was a 2nd chance. I would still be saved. On the other hand, those that think they have that 2nd chance and find out too late they do not, will want to tear you to pieces for leading them astray.

 

[Neogaia777]

It's called "eternal death"... But, what is it...? In what kind of life or existence are you continually, eternally dying? and suffering, in constant sorrow, anguish, misery, or "whatever"...?

God Bless!

What does it mean that the second death shall have no power or authority or hold on them...? Is it because they've been through it already, and conquered and overcame by the blood (power and authority) of the Lamb (Cause of Christ with them and in them)...

God Bless!

 

[Der Alte]

That's great to know, and I suppose we are more or less on the same page at this moment (regarding this topic), but it is somewhat ironic how long your etymology post is.

To the best of my knowledge I cited every passage in the NT in which aion/aionios are described/defined by other adjectives or adjectival phrases as eternity/eternal. I have tried the few verses route but too many arguments, "That is only 2-3 verses what about this verse or that verse?" etc. As I said in my post I did not find any verses in the NT where aion/aionios are described by other adjectives/adjectival phrases as something less than eternity/eternal. I have also done a similar study in the OT and found 38 verses where olam/ad are described/defined as eternity/eternal.

 

[redleghunter]

In biblical terms death is not the cessation of thought or bodily function; it is separation from God.

Which is the absence of hope.

 

[redleghunter]

If the wages of sin is death & death = annihilation, & everyone has sinned, would we all be annihilated as soon as we committed our first sin?

Who says death is annhilation?

 

[mmksparbud]

In biblical terms death is not the cessation of thought or bodily function; it is separation from God.

where does it say that?

 

[ClementofA]

Who says death is annhilation?

Many Christians, including a number on this site (cf the OP). They're called annihilationists.

 

[redleghunter]

To deny that hell is forever is to deny that God is forever, otherwise you are cherry-picking an interpretation if you cannot apply the same rule to either understanding.

It’s what theologians are now calling the root word fallacy or word study fallacy. It’s used to redefine words as used by the NT writers to support an eisegesis.

All eisegesis starts with an opinion or concept which is read into the Holy Scriptures. Instead of proper Biblical exegesis which draws the truth out of the text.

For Universal Reconciliation (UR) the entry argument is God would not be an angry monster and allow even unrepentant sinners who rejected the Son of God and His salvation to an eternity or endless punishment. Here are some quotes which UR advocates used over the years to appeal to human sensibilities and what is deemed human compassion:

“There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ’s moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment” (Bertrand Russell, Why I Am Not a Christian).

“How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God . . .” (Clark H. Pinnock, “The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent”).

Therefore, it starts with a proposal or emotion that God is not a monster. Which concludes that God would be a monster if He punishes the judged. See how that works. Trying to stifle debate immediately by having the opposing Biblical view taking on the reverse straw man.

Now in order to actually find some Biblical support for their proposal they have to (1) cast doubt on certain key words which immediately refute their claim and (2) find obscure Bible translations by UR advocates to promote the change of diction. This is the word study or root word fallacy:

Study of the words alone will not present us with a consistent interpretation or theology. This is one of the misleading aspects of theological dictionaries/wordbooks. One learns far more about obedience/disobedience or sacrifice and sin from the full statement of a passage like 1 Sam 15:22-23 than he will from word studies of key terms like “sacrifice,” “obey,” or “sin” in the text. As a matter of fact, as Moisés Silva observes, “We learn much more about the doctrine of sin by John’s statement, ‘Sin is the transgression of the law,’ than by a word-study of a`marti,a; similarly, tracing the history of the word a[gioj is relatively unimportant for the doctrine of sanctification once we have examined Romans 6–8 and related passages.”17
(Pgs 19-21 From Exegetical Fallacies: https://www.tms.edu/m/msj19.1.pdf )

Now in a less wonky way:

At my seminary, I often teach the introductory Greek course. On the first or second day of class, at least one student and I will have the following typical conversation during one of the breaks:

“Dr. Cara, is it not true that sin in the New Testament means ‘miss the mark’?”

“Well, not exactly,” I respond. “In the Bible, sin means to violate God’s law. Yes, it is true that the Greek word translated as ‘sin,’ hamartia, is a combination of ‘not’ and ‘mark,’ but that is not its meaning in the Bible.”

“I’m confused. I have been told by many people that the real meaning is ‘miss the mark.’”

“Many centuries before the New Testament was written, the word may have been coined based on someone throwing a spear and ‘missing the mark.’ But that is unrelated to the meaning of the word in the New Testament. In fact, emphasizing ‘missing the mark’ as the real meaning may confuse some into thinking that sin is only when one tries his best and fails—he tried to hit the mark but missed. If I may say so, you are confusing the history of a word and its possible original derivation with the meaning current during the New Testament period. You are committing what is called the ‘etymological fallacy,’ which we will cover later in the course.”

More at link which is a very good article from Dr. Robert Cara:
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/teachers/robert-cara/

 

[redleghunter]

Gen_43:9 I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:

Judah could only bear the blame until he died.

Exo_21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.




The servant could only serve until his death or he gets too sick or too old to work

Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

They are not still servants to the Jews.

Num_24:20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end shall be that he perish for ever.

So should be dead forever---not in hell forever.

Num 24:24 And ships shall come from the coast of Chittim, and shall afflict Asshur, and shall afflict Eber, and he also shall perish for ever.
Another that stays dead forever--not in hell living forever.

1Sa_1:22 But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever.

Samuel could only live in the tabernacle of the Lord until his death.

1Sa 27:12 And Achish believed David, saying, He hath made his people Israel utterly to abhor him; therefore he shall be my servant for ever.

Again, he can only be a servant until death, too old or too sick to work.

Sa_28:2 And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever.

He isn't keeping his head forever!

1Ki_1:31 Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the earth, and did reverence to the king, and said, Let my lord king David live for ever.
No king has lived forever--common salutation back then.


There are countless more--do I have to post them all?---that will take forever!!

Those were all temporal covenants. The New Covenant in the blood of Christ is eternal like He the Divine Logos is. Those who are His have Life eternal those who are not His don’t.

 

[ClementofA]

Sorry--but that is absolute baloney and there is nothing there that truly follows the word of God. There is not one single verse that states there is a 2nd chance after death and hell and this site does not provide that verse just endless chatter on their interpretations of verses.This concept of having a 2nd chance after death and hell is quite the most absurd thing I've heard. It is so blatantly anti-scripture. God is mercy, and He is also justice--true and total justice and He will eradicate sin and sinners. That is more than obvious and these people are leading others into a path not taught in scripture and is quite anti-Christ. We are all free to come to our own decisions and if that is the road you choose to go on, it is your right. I feel for those you lead astray. At most, with the decision to see hell and annihilation in what I feel is the scriptural state, I would be very surprised if God said there was a 2nd chance. I would still be saved. On the other hand, those that think they have that 2nd chance and find out too late they do not, will want to tear you to pieces for leading them astray.

Even in this life people get 2nd chances. Not only that, but 10th, 100th, 1,000th, etc.

Even - apostates - (1 Tim.1:19-20) were being given another chance:

19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith.
20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!

Luke 17:4
Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, 'I repent,' you must forgive him."

Love covers a - multitude - of sins.

***Above all***, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

"Mercy triumphs over judgement" - Love Omnipotent (God)

You cannot sin beyond the ability of God's grace to save you:

"where sin increased, grace abounded all the more"

"I tell you, her sins--and they are many--have been forgiven"

If you want to know how much God loves you, look to the incarnation, life, sufferings, and crucifixion of Christ. His love & power for you are greater than the size of the universe:

 

[redleghunter]

Mercy triumphs over judgement. Love will triumph over justice & law. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Where sin abounds, grace super-abounds, grace exceeds sin. Be not overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good.

Unfortunately the audience Paul spoke to were all living here in this temporal life. There is no indication he speaks of those who reject the atonement of Christ and are unrepentant.

That is the problem with your argument. You are reading a concept into the text. Paul was preaching to human beings living in this earth. Not in the Lake of Fire.

If we are to take your eisegesis to the logical end then there will need to be evangelists in the Lake of Fire.

Romans 10: NASB
14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those whog bring good news!”h

16But not all of them welcomed the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”i 17Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Since those in the Lake of Fire rejected the Gospel here on earth (1) what support is there they will in the Lake of Fire? (2) who will bring them the Gospel in the Lake of Fire?

Or is it your point that the condemned in the Lake of Fire after some punishment will become overnight Calvinists and believe in irresistible grace?

What you present is coerced conversion based on punishment. Much like the Spanish Inquisition.