IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[Saint Steven]

Hi Steve, doing GOOD on the SABBATH is part of your duty of LOVE to GOD and MAN (Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18) Jesus is the LORD of the SABBATH our creator who made it for mankind (Mark 2:27-28). He is the one who said it is LAWFUL to do Good on the SABBATH (MATTHEW 12:12). Seems you do not like the answer.

Well that confirms what I was saying all along. Nowhere in the law does it say that doing good on the Sabbath is lawful, even if it violates Sabbath law. Thank you.

 

[Saint Steven]

Sorry Steven God's WORD disagrees with you. You have provided no scripture that says God's the father has different laws to Jesus. If he did how can they be one? The house would then be divided and fall.

JOHN 10:30 [30], I and my Father are one.
MARK 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Hope this helps

Sorry, God's WORD disagrees with you. You have provided no scripture that says God the Father and Jesus have the same laws.

 

[Saint Steven]

Sorry Steve, it is God's WORD not mine and it disagrees with you. The scriptures you have provided do not address the post you are responding to.

Sorry, God's WORD does not agree with you. The new covenant replaces the old covenant.

John 1:16-17
Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 8:7, 13
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

 

[Copperhead]

Not really. I tend to not go in for college dissertations on a subject that seem to be a quick copy and paste thing. A simple, to the point exegesis would have been better served.

Even though you posted what appears to be an SDA view on the issue, there are some SDA theologians that have stated the passage is referring to literal 7th day Shabbat and not ceremonially. Desmond Ford was one of them. Most any SDA theologian knows who Desmond Ford is. Of course he was required to turn in his credentials to the SDA governing body when he use sound exegesis to show that Mrs White was not inerrant in her positions.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you have been forgiven for your sins you are free to walk in God's Spirit (Romans 8:1-4). Only those who are continuing in sin (breaking God's commandments) are "UNDER THE LAW" because they have broken it and stand guilty before God in sin (Romans 3:19-20). Those that CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT sin however will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN (Hebrews 10:26-27).

Yep not looking to good for some come judgment day.

God's WORD disagrees with you.

Galatians 3:5
So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

 

[Der Alte]

Well that is not true Brother Der Alter, you were posted scripture from ACTS 15:21 showing the reason for the early decree to new gentile believers was that they would receive further instruction from the TORAH every Sabbath as they continued to learn God's WORD.

You are wrong as I have explained the gentile's were not allowed in the synagogues because they were not circumcised and they didn't keep the law, read Acts 15. The requirements in Acts 15:20 are repeated two more times Acts 15:29 and Acts 21:25 and not one time are gentiles commanded to go to the synagogues and learn and keep the law.

Acts of the apostles 15:5-6
(5) But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
(6) And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Acts of the apostles 15:10
(10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?​

In 15:10 Paul told the Jerusalem council that the law was a yoke on the neck that neither Paul, his contemporaries nor the fathers were able to keep.

Acts of the apostles 15:19-20
(19) Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
(20) But that we write unto them, that they [#1] abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts of the apostles 15:24
(24) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:​

In verse 24 Paul says they gave no such command "to be circumcised and keep the law."

Act 15:28-29
(28) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
(29) That ye [#2] abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts of the apostles 21:24-25
(24) Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
(25) As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they [gentiles] observe no such thing, [keep the law, vs. 24] save only that they [#3] keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.​

Note Paul specifically said that they gave the gentiles so such command to keep the law, ONLY that "they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."
.....And I point out once again that there is not one verse in the NT which speaks of gentile Christians attending Jewish synagogues. Paul was a Jew he could and did go to some synagogues but you overlooked the fact that he was persecuted by the Jews throughout his ministry simply because he was a Christian yet you insist that uncircumcised gentile Christians regularly attended synagogues without any problems and learned the law which Paul specifically said they did not command. Another thought the word "synagogue" does not occur even one time in Paul's epistles but the word "church" occurs 5 times.

No you didn't brother. This statement of yours really make no sense. How could the Gentiles not be in the Synagagues learning on the Sabbath when they the scripture you provided is saying they will be thrown out of the synagogues and even killed? Can you see your contradiction here?

Your argument makes no sense. If gentile Christians were in the synagogues worshiping and learning why would they be thrown out and killed? And let us remember Jesus never once said that Christians and Jews would worship in the synagogues together.

Indeed I am not disagreeing with you although your historical time references are after the separation took place. Not in the days of PAUL who was preaching the Gospel and in not in every location the Gospel was proclaimed.

Unlike you I provide historical evidence. You mention a "separation" but provide no evidence. And you reject the evidence I provide with no, zero, none evidence.

Not at all brother. Are you ignoring that there was many JEWISH believers and Pharasee that accepted the Gospel message through the preaching of Paul?

But there is no evidence that gentile Christian regularly worshiped together with Jews in the synagogues.

Now brother Der Alter, there is no need for name calling here. We are all brothers in Christ. You have seem to have forgotten that these JEW that came to the gentiles in Acts 15 and Galatians 2:11-14 were converted Pharisees, who PAUL says later were "false bretheren" v3-4, (because they were correct in regards to CIRCUMCISION) v12 says that these converted Pharasees came from James. Sorry brother you seem mixedd up here.

This does not prove that gentile Christians were permitted nor did they regularly meet and worship with Jews in the synagogues.

Indeed Paul was persecuted by the UNBELIEVING Jews. He was not however persecuted by the BELIEVING Jews. Paul was free at some locations he preached and not free at othere. His custom was to preach in the synagogue on the Sabbath (Acts 17:2)

None of which proves that gentile Christians were permitted nor did they regularly meet and worship with Jews in the synagogues.

Indeed I am not disagreeing with you that there was not a separation of JEWS and CHRISTINAS although your historical time references are after the separation took place. Not in the days of PAUL who was preaching the Gospel and in not in every location the Gospel was preached. There was times and places of course where the words of Jesus were fulfilled that his people would be thrown out of the synagogues and even killed.

You continue to ignore the fact that Jesus never said that Jews and Christians would meet and worship together in the synagogues only that they would be thrown out and killed.

Thanks for your thoughts brother maybe it is time for us however to agree to disagree and remain friends.

You do that but I will continue to point out errors where ever I see them.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Well that confirms what I was saying all along. Nowhere in the law does it say that doing good on the Sabbath is lawful, even if it violates Sabbath law. Thank you.

Quite the opposite it shows that Jesus is the maker and LORD of the Sabbath and that doing good on the Sabbath is lawful (Mark 2:27-28; Matthew 12:1-12)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sorry, God's WORD disagrees with you. You have provided no scripture that says God the Father and Jesus have the same laws.

Now Steve, that is not true and your only saying what I have already said to you.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sorry, God's WORD does not agree with you. The new covenant replaces the old covenant.

John 1:16-17
Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 8:7, 13
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

No one is trying to gain rightouesness through trying to keep the law or teaching this to anyone here. The scriptures you have posted are talking about the OLD and NEW COVENANTS. They do not suport what you are teaching here. If you do not know what the OLD TESTAMENT teaches and what the OLD COVENANT is how can you know what the NEW COVENANT is when you have lost your key that unlocks the door of the NEW (John 10:9)?

HOW DO WE KNOW IF WE KNOW HIM [JESUS]

1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

.............

WHAT IS GRACE FOR?

ROMANS 1:5, By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name.

ROMANS 6:1-2, [1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. [2], How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

............

DOES FAITH ABOLISH GOD'S LAW?

ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then ABOLISH THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it.

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Not really. I tend to not go in for college dissertations on a subject that seem to be a quick copy and paste thing. A simple, to the point exegesis would have been better served.

Even though you posted what appears to be an SDA view on the issue, there are some SDA theologians that have stated the passage is referring to literal 7th day Shabbat and not ceremonially. Desmond Ford was one of them. Most any SDA theologian knows who Desmond Ford is. Of course he was required to turn in his credentials to the SDA governing body when he use sound exegesis to show that Mrs White was not inerrant in her positions.

Hi brother copper, It is my own personal study not some cut & paste dissertation. I love God's WORD and prayerfully claim God's promises for his Spirit to be my teacher *JOHN 14:26; 16:13; 7:17; 8:31-32. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You are wrong as I have explained the gentile's were not allowed in the synagogues because they were not circumcised and they didn't keep the law, read Acts 15. The requirements in Acts 15:20 are repeated two more times Acts 15:29 and Acts 21:25 and not one time are gentiles commanded to go to the synagogues and learn and keep the law.

Acts of the apostles 15:5-6
(5) But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
(6) And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Acts of the apostles 15:10
(10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?​

In 15:10 Paul told the Jerusalem council that the law was a yoke on the neck that neither Paul, his contemporaries nor the fathers were able to keep.

Acts of the apostles 15:19-20
(19) Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
(20) But that we write unto them, that they [#1] abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts of the apostles 15:24
(24) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:​

In verse 24 Paul says they gave no such command "to be circumcised and keep the law."

Act 15:28-29
(28) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
(29) That ye [#2] abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Acts of the apostles 21:24-25
(24) Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
(25) As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they [gentiles] observe no such thing, [keep the law, vs. 24] save only that they [#3] keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.​

Note Paul specifically said that they gave the gentiles so such command to keep the law, ONLY that "they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."
.....And I point out once again that there is not one verse in the NT which speaks of gentile Christians attending Jewish synagogues. Paul was a Jew he could and did go to some synagogues but you overlooked the fact that he was persecuted by the Jews throughout his ministry simply because he was a Christian yet you insist that uncircumcised gentile Christians regularly attended synagogues without any problems and learned the law which Paul specifically said they did not command. Another thought the word "synagogue" does not occur even one time in Paul's epistles but the word "church" occurs 5 times.

Your argument makes no sense. If gentile Christians were in the synagogues worshiping and learning why would they be thrown out and killed? And let us remember Jesus never once said that Christians and Jews would worship in the synagogues together.

Unlike you I provide historical evidence. You mention a "separation" but provide no evidence. And you reject the evidence I provide with no, zero, none evidence.

But there is no evidence that gentile Christian regularly worshiped together with Jews in the synagogues.

This does not prove that gentile Christians were permitted nor did they regularly meet and worship with Jews in the synagogues.

None of which proves that gentile Christians were permitted nor did they regularly meet and worship with Jews in the synagogues.

You continue to ignore the fact that Jesus never said that Jews and Christians would meet and worship together in the synagogues only that they would be thrown out and killed.

You do that but I will continue to point out errors where ever I see them.

Hello brother Der Alter, nice to see you again. Your only repeating yourself now brother without addressing any of the scriptures posted to you. You simply deny the scriptures posted as if what you say magically makes God's WORD disappear.

It seems in your view of Acts 15, God has a different law for JEWISH believers and a different law for gentile believers? You do not really believe that now do you brother Der Alter? What you are saying is that Jewish believers need to by faith OBEY God's 10 Commandments but Gentile believers have their own law and are free to break God's 10 Commandment? I am sure you do not believe this brother, this belief goes against all the teachings of GOD's WORD in both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scripture and is something that Jesus and the Apostles never taught.

Can you see your error and where your understanding of ACTS 15 is leading you? Lawlessness is never taught in God's WORD and if you believe this you have to deny 99% of the bibls. The topic and CONTEXT of ACTS 15 is CIRCUMCISION as a requirement for salvation. Not wheather God's 10 Commandments should be obeys or broken. (Posted earlier below)

ACTS 15:1:21
[1], And certain men who came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except you be circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved.

...........

NOTE: ACTS 15:1 is the question that needs to be answered and the topic of conversation and CONTEXT of the chapter of ACTS 15. Here we have Jewish believers coming to Paul and Barnabas saying if the new GENTILES believers are not circumcised and made proselytes then they cannot be saved. This is the chapter context and issue of contention.

...........

[2], When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

...........

NOTE: ACTS 15:2 there was much arguing over the claims of the Jewish believers who are claiming that unless the gentiles are circumcised they cannot be saved. They then determined that Paul and Barnabas must go to Jerusalem to the Apostles and elders ABOUT THIS QUESTION. Which question? Weather your salvation depends on being CIRCUMCISED.

They then travelled to Jerusalem about this question to determine if new gentile believers needed to be CIRCUMCISED in order to be saved. Once they got to Jerusalem, the question was then asked and the discussion continued with the Pharasees stating their cas first..

...........

[5], But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

...........

NOTE: KEEP in mind here the question was never over if gentile believers should obey God's 10 Commandments but to keep the Shadow laws of Moses, in this case CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation.

...........

[6], And the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
[7], And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, you know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[8], And God, who knows the hearts, bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;

...........

NOTE: After much discussion between the Apostles, Peter then rose up showing that God gave the gentile believers the Holy Spirit being uncircumcised.

...........

[9], And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[10], Now therefore why test God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[11], But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

...........

NOTE: They came to the conclusion then that salvation is not by being circumcised but be what circumcision pointed to. A new heart by faith. This is made plain latter in other scripture written by PAUL here...

ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

If ACTS 15 was talking about the 10 Commandments then Pauls writings in to the CORITHIANS do not make any sense.

1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

The scripture above is a contradiction of how some interpret the outcome of ACTS 15

You do not believe brother Der Alter, that we are now free to break any of God's 10 Commandments now do you?

...........

[12], Then all the multitude kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring what miracles and wonders God had done among the Gentiles by them.
[13], And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
[14], Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
[15], And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
[16], After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
[17], That the rest of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.
[18], Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
[19], Therefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them, who from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
[20], But that we write unto them, that they abstain from defilements of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
[21], For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

.................

CONCLUSION So the conclusion of the matter. v19-20 We are not to trouble the new gentile believers with CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation. They are new converts they will learn more about God as Moses is preached when? EVERY SABBATH. WE just tell the new believers because they will be learning every Sabbath to abstain from defilements of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

NOPE nothing written about the 10 Commandments in this chapter. Here is what PAUL says of the matter here...

1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

Yep you may need to revisit your thinking of ACTS 15. CIRCUMCISION is not the 10 Commandments. It is from the Shadow laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

Hope this helps.

 

[klutedavid]

What you say is not true. For it is written,

"For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed," (Romans 15:18).

For...

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28).

Also, 1 John 3:9 and Matthew 19:16-21 in no way says what you made them out to say. When you read 1 John 3:9, you should also read the verses before it and the verses after it, too.

Lets check them out.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;" (1 John 3:8).
"he that doeth righteousness is righteous," (1 John 3:7).
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

As for Matthew 19:16-21:

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Now, you may like to think Jesus's whole point here is that we cannot keep God's laws; However, if that was the case, then He would have lied to the rich-man in telling him to do something that was impossible. Also, there is a reason you stopped at verse 21. It's because the final verses of Matthew 19 blows away your belief back into non-existence. If you were to read the end of Matthew 19, Jesus does not say,

"So you see. Obeying God's commands are impossible. You cannot enter into everlasting life by keeping God's commandments."

But nowhere does Jesus ever say such a thing or even suggest it.

Jesus actually says in Matthew 19:29,

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (Matthew 19:29).

This is the second to the last verse in Matthew 19 (that Jesus speaks here). It is the conclusion. It says that everyone who has forsaken houses, brethren, etc. for Christ's sake shall receive an hundredfold and they shall inherit everlasting life.

Now, in order to make your belief work, you either have to change this above verse or ignore it.

Side Note:

As for 1 John 3:9:

Here is a portion of an article I agree with,

"John Wesley says:

”But some men will say, ‘True: whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin habitually.’ Habitually! Whence is that? I read it not. It is not written in the Book. God plainly saith, ‘He doth not commit sin’; and thou addest, habitually! Who art thou that mendest the oracles of God?-that ‘addest to the words of this book’? Beware I beseech thee, lest God ”add to thee all the plagues that are written therein’!” / John Wesley’s Fifty Three Sermons ”The Marks of the New Birth” April 3, 1741

”Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (the believer) remaineth in him (Jesus): and he (the believer) cannot sin, because he is born of God (which is to abide in Jesus).” 1 John 3:9

This is confirmed in 1 John 3:6

”Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” 1 John 3:6

It is not impossible for a believer to sin but rather, it is impossible for a believer to sin as long as he abides in Jesus (which is a condition to remain a believer). The chapter does not teach that it is impossible for a christian to sin but that it is possible that he, through God’s grace, avoids it. No believer has to sin (Titus 2:11-12, 1 Corinthians 10:13) and the Bible does not say that we are off the hook if we only transgress the law just once in a while instead of several times. Repentance is the only cure. If we mix sin and ”sorries” on a daily basis, we have not truly repented."

Source:
https://bjorkbloggen.com/2011/10/31...between-sinning-and-practicing-sin-1-john-39/
(Note: I do not agree with everything this author says, even in the other part of the article He mentions how Christ could have sinned - which I disagree with).

May I ask whether you sin?

 

[Copperhead]

Hi brother copper, It is my own personal study not some cut & paste dissertation. I love God's WORD and prayerfully claim God's promises for his Spirit to be my teacher *JOHN 14:26; 16:13; 7:17; 8:31-32. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

I agree with the statement. But I disagree with how you are using scripture to support your view on the issue. The scripture I posted is quite clear, susinct, and is the testimony of two witnesses (OT and NT) which is required for any matter to be decided. But I will post them again....

Micah 6:8 (ISV) He has made it clear to you, mortal man, what is good
and what the Lord is requiring from you—
to act with justice,
to treasure the Lord’s gracious love,
and to walk humbly in the company of your God.

1 John 3:22-24 (ISV) Whatever we request we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus the Messiah, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The person who keeps his commandments abides in God, and God abides in him. This is how we can be sure that he remains in us: he has given us his Spirit.

And the only mention of keeping the Shabbat in the NT is in Hebrews, and it tells us how we are to view that... our rest is in Yeshua.

Hebrews 4:9-10 (ISV) There remains, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God to keep, 10 because the one who enters God’s rest has himself rested from his own actions, just as God did from his.

It still remains, one can be so caught up in their focus of the keeping commandments that they forget the one who gave them and the purpose they were intended for. The commandments fall under what is called Torah. The root for that is Yara, or teacher. The commandments are instruction and guidance, not some hard, cold thing like the speed limit laws. It was the viewing of commandments as some strict task master that led to many of the Hebrew religious leadership to not recognize Yeshua as the promised Messiah. The writer of Hebrews added to the verses above....

Hebrews 4:11 (ISV) Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fail by following their example of disobedience.

The disobedience being the rejection of Yeshua.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

May I ask whether you sin?

My life is not the standard.
God's Word is the standard.
It would not matter if the whole world did not follow God.
God's Word would still be true in what it says and teaches.
If you need a testimony: The 144,000 are Messianic Jews mentioned in Revelation 14:3-5. They are found without fault before the throne of God. This was not because they believed really hard the best on Jesus. This is because of their actions. For there was no guile in their mouths and they were virgins and they followed the Lamb wherever he went.

God's grace is not a license for immorality or doing whatever we please (Which is suggestive of those who say all you need is a belief on Jesus to be saved). While God's grace can be there for believers who honestly stumble into sin on occasion, the Lord's grace was never meant for us to have the mindset that we can sin 24/7 with the thinking we are saved. It astonishes me that Christians say that they sin multiple times a day and think they are saved just because they have a belief on Jesus. While believing in Jesus is essential for salvation, it is not at the expense of repentance. We have to seek God's forgiveness and forsake sin. If not, then we are no better than the world that sins. For can a believer be an unrepentant axe murdering rapist who also abuses children and be saved? My guess is that you would say... "no." This means some level of holiness is required as a part of the salvation process or the salvation equation (After we are saved by God's grace). Some Christians try to cheat and say that believers are changed by God and they will automatically in time live holy. Basically, they are agreeing with me that holiness is required as a part of the salvation process. They just believe holiness is forced upon them in some way as a part of being born again. But if God forces us to be holy, then why does God just force everyone to live holy? Is a one time decision really the key factor of us being holy puppets? Surely not. We have free will.

Side Note:

You also did not really address the verses in my post that you replied to. I believe these verses are problem verses for you. They do not fit a sin and still be saved mentality. Also, a sin and still be saved mentality is immoral and God could never agree with a plan of salvation like that because He is holy and good. God would have to agree with a believer's plan of salvation that said that they could do evil and still be saved. But can God agree with sin? Surely not. So your belief that you can sin and still be saved is flawed.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello brother Copper nice to see you again and thanks for your post. Some comments for your consideration below.

I agree with the statement. But I disagree with how you are using scripture to support your view on the issue.The scripture I posted is quite clear, susinct, and is the testimony of two witnesses (OT and NT) which is required for any matter to be decided.

This statement brother is very unclear. What is it that you disagree with in the scriptures that have been provided to you? Let's discuss your claims and bring it to the light of God's WORD to see if there is any truth in what your saying? All the scriptures I have posted are supported by both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures (the two witnesses) which I agree that are the key to understanding the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures by God's Spirit.

But I will post them again.... Micah 6:8 (ISV) He has made it clear to you, mortal man, what is good and what the Lord is requiring from you— to act with justice, to treasure the Lord’s gracious love, and to walk humbly in the company of your God.

How is this scripture supporting your view of Colossians 2 and Hebrews 4?

1 John 3:22-24 (ISV) Whatever we request we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus the Messiah, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The person who keeps his commandments abides in God, and God abides in him. This is how we can be sure that he remains in us: he has given us his Spirit.

How is this scripture supporting your view of Colossians 2 and Hebrews 4?

And the only mention of keeping the Shabbat in the NT is in Hebrews, and it tells us how we are to view that... our rest is in Yeshua.

Hebrews 4:9-10 (ISV) There remains, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God to keep, 10 because the one who enters God’s rest has himself rested from his own actions, just as God did from his.

Well that is not really true. Jesus in the NEW TESTAMENT taught how to correctly keep the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-12) as well as proclaimed that he was the LORD of the Sabbath, the creator of heaven and earth and that he made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27-28). Jesus also says that the Sabbath is a day as does Genesis and Exodus in the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures (Matthew 12:8; Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Paul says that there remains a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God and warns us not to be in UNBELIEF if we wish to enter into God's Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4:9-11).

Yep OLD AND NEW Testament scriptures agree that the Sabbath is a day and Jesus is the LORD of it and has made it for all mankind (Mark 2:27-28). The warning in HEBREWS 4 is that those who do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD do not enter into God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH rest. [Hebrews 4:1-5; 9;11]

HEBREWS 4:9;11 [9], SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

No one enters into GOD'S SABBATH rest if they do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (Gospel).

Thanks fior sharing brother Copper. Do you see and hear God's WORD brother?

Hope this helps

 

[klutedavid]

My life is not the standard.
God's Word is the standard.
It would not matter if the whole world did not follow God.
God's Word would still be true in what it says and teaches.
If you need a testimony: The 144,000 are Messianic Jews mentioned in Revelation 14:3-5. They are found without fault before the throne of God. This was not because they believed really hard the best on Jesus. This is because of their actions. For there was no guile in their mouths and they were virgins and they followed the Lamb wherever he went.

God's grace is not a license for immorality or doing whatever we please (Which is suggestive of those who say all you need is a belief on Jesus to be saved). While God's grace can be there for believers who honestly stumble into sin on occasion, the Lord's grace was never meant for us to have the mindset that we can sin 24/7 with the thinking we are saved. It astonishes me that Christians say that they sin multiple times a day and think they are saved just because they have a belief on Jesus. While believing in Jesus is essential for salvation, it is not at the expense of repentance. We have to seek God's forgiveness and forsake sin. If not, then we are no better than the world that sins. For can a believer be an unrepentant axe murdering rapist who also abuses children and be saved? My guess is that you would say... "no." This means some level of holiness is required as a part of the salvation process or the salvation equation (After we are saved by God's grace). Some Christians try to cheat and say that believers are changed by God and they will automatically in time live holy. Basically, they are agreeing with me that holiness is required as a part of the salvation process. They just believe holiness is forced upon them in some way as a part of being born again. But if God forces us to be holy, then why does God just force everyone to live holy? Is a one time decision really the key factor of us being holy puppets? Surely not. We have free will.

Side Note:

You also did not really address the verses in my post that you replied to. I believe these verses are problem verses for you. They do not fit a sin and still be saved mentality. Also, a sin and still be saved mentality is immoral and God could never agree with a plan of salvation like that because He is holy and good. God would have to agree with a believer's plan of salvation that said that they could do evil and still be saved. But can God agree with sin? Surely not. So your belief that you can sin and still be saved is flawed.

All I asked was whether you still sin. Look at the size of your response.

Do I believe in holiness? Of course I do, I simply don't understand your accusations.

Apparently, you only sin on the odd occasion?

I find that very hard to believe!

Do you continue to commit the same sins, over and over, again?

Have you repented of your sin?

This is the point that I don't understand. If you truly repent of a sin, then you will not commit that sin again. Given that your repentance is a genuine repentance of course. So what is your excuse?

Is sin, in fact, lawlessness?

Do you believe you have to be sin free and perfect to be saved?

 

[klutedavid]

Your life is not the standard?

Oh yes it is, the scripture is directly addressed to you. Jesus gave His life for you. You are the standard absolutely, if you confess His name.

All I asked was whether you still sin. Look at the size of your response.

Do I believe in holiness? Of course I do, I simply don't understand your accusations.

Apparently, you only sin on the odd occasion?

I find that very hard to believe!

Do you continue to commit the same sins, over and over, again?

Have you repented of your sin?

This is the point that I don't understand. If you truly repent of a sin, then you will not commit that sin again, logically. Given that your repentance is a genuine repentance of course. So what is your excuse, why do you continue to break commandments?

Do you believe you have to be sin free and perfect to be saved?

 

[Neogaia777]

Your life is not the standard?

Oh yes it is, the scripture is directly addressed to you. Jesus gave His life for you. You are the standard absolutely, if you confess His name.

All I asked was whether you still sin. Look at the size of your response.

Do I believe in holiness? Of course I do, I simply don't understand your accusations.

Apparently, you only sin on the odd occasion?

I find that very hard to believe!

Do you continue to commit the same sins, over and over, again?

Have you repented of your sin?

This is the point that I don't understand. If you truly repent of a sin, then you will not commit that sin again, logically. Given that your repentance is a genuine repentance of course. So what is your excuse, why do you continue to break commandments?

Do you believe you have to be sin free and perfect to be saved?

That last line, I would add a "why" before it... Especially when he does not meet that standard...

But people have told him this before, so I doubt he's really gonna listen, embrace the gospel of love and mercy, and grace and truth, ect, ect... Lead him out of works and self-effort and performance and law, ect, ect... (flesh BTW) Anyway...

But, you know I say "whatever" at this point...

God Bless!

 

[klutedavid]

Hello brother Copper nice to see you again and thanks for your post. Some comments for your consideration below.

This statement brother is very unclear. What is it that you disagree with in the scriptures that have been provided to you? Let's discuss your claims and bring it to the light of God's WORD to see if there is any truth in what your saying? All the scriptures I have posted are supported by both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures (the two witnesses) which I agree that are the key to understanding the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures by God's Spirit.

How is this scripture supporting your view of Colossians 2 and Hebrews 4?

How is this scripture supporting your view of Colossians 2 and Hebrews 4?


Well that is not really true. Jesus in the NEW TESTAMENT taught how to correctly keep the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-12) as well as proclaimed that he was the LORD of the Sabbath, the creator of heaven and earth and that he made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27-28). Jesus also says that the Sabbath is a day as does Genesis and Exodus in the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures (Matthew 12:8; Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11). Paul says that there remains a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God and warns us not to be in UNBELIEF if we wish to enter into God's Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4:9-11).

Yep OLD AND NEW Testament scriptures agree that the Sabbath is a day and Jesus is the LORD of it and has made it for all mankind (Mark 2:27-28). The warning in HEBREWS 4 is that those who do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD do not enter into God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH rest. [Hebrews 4:1-5; 9;11]

HEBREWS 4:9;11 [9], SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

No one enters into GOD'S SABBATH rest if they do not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (Gospel).

Thanks fior sharing brother Copper. Do you see and hear God's WORD brother?

Hope this helps

You quoted a passage from Hebrews but omitted a verse.

HEBREWS 4:9;11 [9], SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Here is the passage you quoted with all three verses.

Hebrews 4
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest, has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Interesting LGW, that you omitted the verse, 'also rested from his works', not a verse that your comfortable with.

Also the passage does not say what you quoted.

You said, 'IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.'

Whereas the verse actually says, 'there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God'. The way you read the scripture, at times, shocks me.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You quoted a passage from Hebrews but omitted a verse.

Here is the passage you quoted with all three verses.

Hebrews 4
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest, has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Interesting LGW, that you omitted the verse, 'also rested from his works', not a verse that your comfortable with.

Also the passage does not say what you quoted.

You said, 'IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.'

Whereas the verse actually says, 'there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God'. The way you read the scripture, at times, shocks me.

Not really David the verses were clearly marked out and verse 10 makes no difference to the meaning of v9 and v11. The point was being made that there remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath v9 and we should labor to enter into it v11.

HEBREWS 4:9;11 [9], SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Why would you think I am not comfortable with v10? I am very comfortable and happy to discuss it if you wish to. But David making sly remarks and insinuations as if I was intentionally trying to hide something is not very becoming or christian as it portrays a motive that I never had and judges me for something I never did. It is ok maybe you did not mean it.

May God bless you as you seek him through his WORD.