IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

[ViaCrucis]

Hello Brother ViaCrucis, why in your view do you feel it is a moot question when your whole premise is that God's LAW is for Israel only?

Then you didn't understand my premise.

My whole premise is that the Torah was given exclusively to Israel as part of the covenant God established with them at Horeb.

I understand what you were trying to do, which is why I'm nipping it in the bud.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Then you didn't understand my premise.

My whole premise is that the Torah was given exclusively to Israel as part of the covenant God established with them at Horeb.

I understand what you were trying to do, which is why I'm nipping it in the bud.

-CryptoLutheran

No brother ViaCrucis, I did not misunderstand your premise. Your premise is that God's LAW is to ISRAEL alone. You stated it again above. That is why I was asking you earlier...

Do you know where the name ISRAEL comes from in the OLD TESTAMNENT SCRIPTURES and who are God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT? You do know gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT right?

How are they moot questions?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No brother ViaCrucis, I did not misunderstand your premise. Your premise is that God's LAW is to ISRAEL alone. You stated it again above. That is why I was asking you earlier...

Do you know where the name ISRAEL comes from in the OLD TESTAMNENT SCRIPTURES and who are God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT? You do know gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT right?

How are they moot questions?

Yeah, but it's the NEW COVENANT and not the OLD COVENANT.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yeah, but it's the NEW COVENANT and not the OLD COVENANT.
You seem to think the old wine tastes better.

Indeed brother Jason, and gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL (Romans 11:16-27)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Indeed brother Jason, and gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL (Romans 11:16-27)

Jesus is an Israelite. He is the One by whom we are grafted in by and not the nation of Israel. Jesus is the vine or the tree. The Israelites were the natural branches and the Gentiles were branches that were grafted upon that tree. Jesus started a New Covenant with New Commands. They are not the same as the commands given to Moses.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Indeed brother Jason, and gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL (Romans 11:16-27)

And in Christ, under a new covenant.

That's the part you are ignoring.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveGodsWord]

And in Christ, under a new covenant.

That's the part you are ignoring.

-CryptoLutheran

No not at all brother I read your post and did not ignore it. Your premise was that the laws were specific to Israeal. It is ok brother you do not need to answer the questions if you do not wish to.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No brother ViaCrucis, I did not misunderstand your premise. Your premise is that God's LAW is to ISRAEL alone. You stated it again above. That is why I was asking you earlier...

Try again, I even put things in bold and underlined for you.

Do you know where the name ISRAEL comes from in the OLD TESTAMNENT SCRIPTURES and who are God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT? You do know gentiles are now grafted in to God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT right?

How are they moot questions?

It's a moot question because the point isn't "Who is Israel?" the point is "What covenant are we under?".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Try again, I even put things in bold and underlined for you.

It's a moot question because the point isn't "Who is Israel?" the point is "What covenant are we under?".

-CryptoLutheran

I would suggest that the questions are not moot questions because the new COVENANT promise is to God's ISRAEL (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34). If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT. Gentiles are now grafted in (Romans 11:16-27).

It is ok brother you do not need to answer the questions if you do not wish to.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word

 

[LoveGodsWord]

sorry double post website or my pc not sure deleted

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe there is confusion on both sides of this issue because they do not accept this one verse in what it says.

"Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." (Hebrews 10:9).​

For one side says we must keep the Sabbath from the 10 commandments. But this verse above here says that he takes away the first covenant. Meaning it is no more; And there is no command has been repeated in the New Testament is given to us on the Sabbath.

Jason you have taken the above scripture out of CONTEXT. I hope you do not mind I hope to show why in this post only sent as a help. The verse you have quoted says nowhere that God's Sabbath is no more.

The OLD COVENANT included both God's eternal law (10 Commandments) and the shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 34:26; Exodus 24:7) together they made up the OLD COVENANT and God's plan of salvation. The Shadow laws from the BOOK of the law *Deuteronomy 31:26, held a different pupose to the 10 Commandments. God's LAW was the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and Evil; SIN and RIGHTOUSNESS (Romans 3:20; Psalms 19:7-9) while the Shadow laws from the BOOK of the COVENANT provided the laws for remission of sin [FORGIVENESS] if God's eternal law was broken (Leviticus 16; sin offerings). You mix up the Shadow laws from the BOOK of the covenant with God's eternal laws (10 Commandments).

Now let's look at the scripture context you left out of the scripture you posted above from Hebrews 10:9 to examine what is the topic of conversation?

HEBREWS 10:1-12
[1], For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the ones approaching perfect.

Note: CONTEXT. What law are we talking about here? It is it God's 10 Commandments or the Mosaic shadow laws from the MOSAIC book of the law (Deuteronomy 31:26; Leviticus 16)? It is the Shadow laws from the Moasiac book of the covenant * EXODUS 24:7

[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because the worshipers once purged should have had no more consciousness of sins.
[3], But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year [Great day of Atonemen (Leviticus 23:27-32).

[4], For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. [Leviticus 16 from the Mosaic book of the laws for remission of sin]

[5], Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, Sacrifice and offering you desired not, but a body have you prepared me:
[6], In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
[7], Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do your will, O God.

Note: we are not talking about God's eternal law (10 Commandments) here it is what is written in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK in relation to the Shadow laws v1 of the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT (Exodus 24:7; Heberws 10:1)

[8], Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you desired not, neither had pleasure in them; which are offered by the law; [What law? Leviticus 16 from the Mosaic book of the law (Covenant) Exodus 24:7]

[9], Then said he, Lo, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

Note: CONTEXT considered so far, what is being taken away here? The SHADOW LAWS from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT that are fulfilled and pointed to JESUS in the NEW COVENANT. NOT THE 10 COMMANDMENTS! contunues...

[10], By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[11], And every priest stands daily ministering and offering frequently the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12], But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;

..............

CONCLUSION: Yep no more sin offerings from the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT (Exodus 24:7) This is not talking about God's eternal law (10 Commandments) being taken away. It is talking about the SHADOW laws from the volume of the book that was written about him. The MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT. No more animal sacrifices that pointed to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

Can you see the context you left out trying to apply this to God's 10 commandments (4th Commandment Sabbath Exodus 20:8-11)? The above is in reference to the shadow laws for remission of sin [forgiveness] under the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. Not any of God's 10 Commandments.

Hope this helps Jason.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason you have taken the above scripture out of CONTEXT. I hope you do not mind I hope to show why in this post only sent as a help. The verse you have quoted says nowhere that God's Sabbath is no more.

The OLD COVENANT included both God's eternal law (10 Commandments) and the shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 34:26; Exodus 24:7) together they made up the OLD COVENANT and God's plan of salvation. The Shadow laws from the BOOK of the law *Deuteronomy 31:26, held a different pupose to the 10 Commandments. God's LAW was the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and Evil; SIN and RIGHTOUSNESS (Romans 3:20; Psalms 19:7-9) while the Shadow laws from the BOOK of the COVENANT provided the laws for remission of sin [FORGIVENESS] if God's eternal law was broken (Leviticus 16; sin offerings). You mix up the Shadow laws from the BOOK of the covenant with God's eternal laws (10 Commandments).

Now let's look at the scripture context you left out of the scripture you posted above from Hebrews 10:9 to examine what is the topic of conversation?

HEBREWS 10:1-12
[1], For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the ones approaching perfect.

Note: CONTEXT. What law are we talking about here? It is it God's 10 Commandments or the Mosaic shadow laws from the MOSAIC book of the law (Deuteronomy 31:26; Leviticus 16)? It is the Shadow laws from the Moasiac book of the covenant * EXODUS 24:7

[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because the worshipers once purged should have had no more consciousness of sins.
[3], But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year [Great day of Atonemen (Leviticus 23:27-32).

[4], For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. [Leviticus 16 from the Mosaic book of the laws for remission of sin]

[5], Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, Sacrifice and offering you desired not, but a body have you prepared me:
[6], In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
[7], Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do your will, O God.

Note: we are not talking about God's eternal law (10 Commandments) here it is what is written in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK in relation to the Shadow laws v1 of the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT (Exodus 24:7; Heberws 10:1)

[8], Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you desired not, neither had pleasure in them; which are offered by the law; [What law? Leviticus 16 from the Mosaic book of the law (Covenant) Exodus 24:7]

[9], Then said he, Lo, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

Note: CONTEXT considered so far, what is being taken away here? The SHADOW LAWS from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT that are fulfilled and pointed to JESUS in the NEW COVENANT. NOT THE 10 COMMANDMENTS! contunues...

[10], By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[11], And every priest stands daily ministering and offering frequently the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[12], But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;

..............

CONCLUSION: Yep no more sin offerings from the Shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT (Exodus 24:7) This is not talking about God's eternal law (10 Commandments) being taken away. It is talking about the SHADOW laws from the volume of the book that was written about him. The MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT. No more animal sacrifices that pointed to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT.

Can you see the context you left out trying to apply this to God's 10 commandments (4th Commandment Sabbath Exodus 20:8-11)? The above is in reference to the shadow laws for remission of sin [forgiveness] under the MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT. Not any of God's 10 Commandments.

Hope this helps Jason.

No offense, but I don't think you hear all that well, my friend. I said I will not endlessly discuss the Mosaic Law with you as per Titus 3:9. Not sure how many times I have to tell you this before you get it. In fact, while you may not agree with my belief here, at least have a little respect about what I believe and not tempt me to keep replying to you (Whereby I may violate Titus 3:9).
For it's not nice to keep tempting me to break God's Word - IMO.
I mean, would you eat bacon in front of a fellow believer who told you that they are highly offended by others who eat pork in their presence?

I hope you understand.
And thank you.

I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus;
And may you please be well.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello Brother Der Alter, nice to see you agan. Some comments for your consideration below.

Thank you for the welcome but I have been at this forum for about 2 decades. I have read these same arguments many times over. The typical out-of-context Judaizer proof texts.

So what proof texts do you believe are out of context and why? Your welcome to prove your claims brother however if you cannot you are simply providing your own words over God's WORD when only God's WORD is true (Romans 3:4)

Please show me one verse which shows gentile Christians being welcomed and worshiping in Jewish synagogues? Even Paul who was a Jew from "the tribe Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;" was persecuted throughout his ministry. Jesus did not say that gentile Christians would be worshiping side by side with Jews in the synagogues.

In relation to the new gentiles believers and the reason given for the decision at Jerusalem,

ACTS 15:20:21
[20], But that we write unto them, that they abstain from defilements of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Why?

[21], For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Also, if your interested there is a lot of historical references available of the early Christian gentile believers whorshipping in the Jewish Synagogues on the Sabbath. Let me know if you would like some references?

​

John 16:2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. If Christians met in the synagogues with Jews why were there so many house churches and the epistles were written to churches not synagogues.

This was after the times of persecution a lot of which was done by the Romans empire to the Jews but also from contention between the traditional Jews and the new Christians which included both Jewish Christians and gentile Chrstians against tradtional Jews who did not accept Christ as the Messaiah.

Let me know if you would like some historical records?

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No offense, but I don't think you hear all that well, my friend. I said I will not endlessly discuss the Mosaic Law with you as per Titus 3:9. Not sure how many times I have to tell you this before you get it. In fact, while you may not agree with my belief here, at least have a little respect about what I believe and not tempt me to keep replying to you (Whereby I may violate Titus 3:9).
For it's not nice to keep tempting me to break God's Word - IMO.
I mean, would you eat bacon in front of a fellow believer who told you that they are highly offended by others who eat pork in their presence?

I hope you understand.
And thank you.

I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus;
And may you please be well.

Hi Jason, no offence taken brother thanks though. You can accept the scripures or not it is up to you. In relation to Titus 3:9 there is no problem there as the scripture is not talking about discussing the 10 Commandments as shown ealier in the GREEK meaning of the word law which is ceremonial. But it is ok if you do not wish to respond it does not matter to me. This is between you and God.

The way I see it is you are only using Titus as an excuse not to talk about the context you have left out of your interpretation of the scriptures you have posted in Hebrews 10:9.

If your interested read the post for yourself so you understand why it is written. You do not need to reply to it if you do not wish to. No one is forcing you to. It is written not just for you but for eveyone that may be following. Nothing personal brother Jason.

May God bless you as you seek him through his WORD

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe Jesus was setting the law aside. Where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Hi Steve, that really does not make much sense. If you have no law there is not knowledge of sin. I guess your saying out of sight out of mind? Yet the scriptures say...

ROMANS 2:12-13
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Sorry Steve out of sight out of mind does not work in the NEW COVENANT.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hi Steve, that really does not make much sense. If you have no law there is not knowledge of sin. I guess your saying out of sight out of mind? Yet the scriptures say...

ROMANS 2:12-13
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Sorry Steve out of sight out of mind does not work in the NEW COVENANT.

Maybe a little context will help.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Maybe a little context will help.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Not really Steve,

The CONTEXT of ROMANS 2:14-15 is in ROMANS 2:12-13. Thats what your leaving out.

ROMANS 2:12-13
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

v14-15 is continuing on the same thoughts from v12-13 showing that LOVE fulfills the LAW. While v12-13 show that there is consequences for breaking God's LAW when there is no LOVE. None have LOVE without God for GOD is LOVE (1 John 4:8)

Sorry Steve out of sight out of mind does not work in the NEW COVENANT.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Jesus is an Israelite. He is the One by whom we are grafted in by and not the nation of Israel.

Indeed. Who is talking about the nations of Israel?

Jesus is the vine or the tree. The Israelites were the natural branches and the Gentiles were branches that were grafted upon that tree.

Jesus started a New Covenant with New Commands. They are not the same as the commands given to Moses.

Depends on what you mean "the same as the commands given to Moses" as he was given many some are shadow of the new and some are eternal. The NEW Covenant promise was given in the OLD Testament Paul just quotes it in the NEW (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12).

What new commands do you believe Jesus gave that were not already in the OLD TESTAMENT for the NEW COVENANT?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Jason

Your post above Jason is not relavant to the discussion or the questions. If you believe it is then say why? No one is arguing against those scriptures