Are Christians the new chosen people?

[Dave L]

True, but it is the Jews that were "broken off", Christ then turning his attention to the other tribes, termed "gentiles" throughout the new testament.

They remain broken off unless they have faith in Christ. This is how God reattaches them to Israel per Romans 11. Otherwise they remain gentiles.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are Christians the new chosen people? Or the the new Israel?

The Gentiles were chosen because of Israel’s disobedience in order to cause them to be jealous and envious of them so that they might turn back to God.

“But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, “I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:19‬

 

[Copperhead]

The "house of Israel" means the tribes of the northern kingdom specifically whenever used. James addressed them in his epistle.

James 1:1 (TLV) Jacob, a slave of God and of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah,
To the twelve tribes in the Diaspora:
Shalom!

And how was that only the tribes of the Northern kingdom again?

Again.... Ezra called his returning remnant from Babylon Jews (9 times) and Israel (40 times). Nehemiah called his remnant Jews (11 times) and Israel (22 times). The term Israel after the Babylonian captivity had become interchangeable with the term Jew. There is no basis for asserting that Israel only refers to the tribes of the northern kingdom.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

James 1:1 (TLV) Jacob, a slave of God and of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah,
To the twelve tribes in the Diaspora:
Shalom!

And how was that only the tribes of the Northern kingdom again?

Again.... Ezra called his returning remnant from Babylon Jews (9 times) and Israel (40 times). Nehemiah called his remnant Jews (11 times) and Israel (22 times). The term Israel after the Babylonian captivity had become interchangeable with the term Jew. There is no basis for asserting that Israel only refers to the tribes of the northern kingdom.

All the tribes, including the Jews, were still in the Assyrian/Babylonian 'diaspora' regardless of those living in Judea at the time. James is addressing those who didn't return to Judea.

Even the Jews recognized that there were other Jews in their day scattered among the gentiles, although they may have been referring to other tribes of Israel as well
.
John 7:34-35

34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

This verse can also be translated "......among the nations, and teach the tribes", which is exactly what his commission was.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Are Christians the new chosen people? Or the the new Israel?

Yes.
We are also neuter......

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Dave L]

Here's the way it works. The church existed as the congregation of the Lord, mentioned over 300 times in the OT. It was an institutional church/state. It had mostly unbelievers with a few believers at all times. When Jesus died on the cross, he abolished the church/state and removed the unbelievers from Israel. This state/church died off especially in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This left only the believers like Paul, Matthew, and the thousands who converted to the New Covenant at Pentecost. And God grafted in billions plus of believing gentiles from around the world.

So as believing gentiles, God grafted us into this spiritual Israel, also called the Church. He will graft any of the broken off former Jewish unbelievers, but only through faith in Christ (Romans 11:23.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here's the way it works. The church existed as the congregation of the Lord, mentioned over 300 times in the OT. It was an institutional church/state. It had mostly unbelievers with a few believers at all times. When Jesus died on the cross, he abolished the church/state and removed the unbelievers from Israel. This state/church died off especially in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This left only the believers like Paul, Matthew, and the thousands who converted to the New Covenant at Pentecost. And God grafted in billions plus of believing gentiles from around the world.

So as believing gentiles, God grafted us into this spiritual Israel, also called the Church. He will graft any of the broken off former Jewish unbelievers, but only through faith in Christ (Romans 11:23.

Nailed it.
Congregation of hypocrites:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Job/Job.htm

Job 15:34
For the congregation<5712> of hypocrites<2611> shall be desolate,
and fire shall consume the tabernacles/tents<168> of bribery<7810>.
Job 36:13
But the hypocrites<02611 in heart heap up wrath<639>;
they cry< 7768> not when he bindeth<631> them.

Matthew 23:
13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! 16 Woe to you, blind guides, those saying,..... 23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! 25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! 27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! 29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!

32 Ye, then, fill up the measure of your fathers.
33 Serpents! Offspring of vipers!
How shall ye escape the judgement of the Gehenna?

38 Behold! Your House is left to ye wilderness/desolate!<2048>

Luke 21:20
`Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem being surrounded by armies<4760>,
then be knowing that is nigh the desolating/erhmwsiV <2050> of Her;

Revelation 18:
16 saying, Woe, woe, the great City the one having been clothed, fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and having been golding in gold, and to stone, precious, and to pearl--
that to one hour was desolated/<2049> the many riches.

19 And they cast dust upon their heads and cried out, lamenting and mourning, saying "woe! woe! the great City, in which are rich all the ones having the ships in the sea out of the preciousness of Her,
that to one hour She was desolated<2049>

 

[timtams]

Are Christians the new chosen people? Or the the new Israel?

We are the chosen people, the Israel according to the Spirit and not the flesh, but we aren't new. There was always a faithful remnant among natural Israel who constituted God's Israel, into which natural Jew and Gentile are now admitted.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes.
We are also neuter......

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Spiritually neuter that is.

 

[Copperhead]

Spiritually neuter that is.

Yeah, good to delineate that. When folks use that passage to say there is neither Jew or Gentile in the Ekklesia, they tend to overlook the neither male or female part. I like to point out that if both are true, then have a group of men and a group of women stand up in front during a meeting and strip and see if there is any difference.

There are indeed physical Jews and physical Goyim in the Ekklesia. There are indeed physical males and females. Else Paul wouldn't have given detailed instructions on lifestyle to both males and females. But in the eyes of the Lord who redeemed them, there is no difference. That is indeed in a spiritual sense.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yeah, good to delineate that. When folks use that passage to say there is neither Jew or Gentile in the Ekklesia, they tend to overlook the neither male or female part. I like to point out that if both are true, then have a group of men and a group of women stand up in front during a meeting and strip and see if there is any difference.

There are indeed physical Jews and physical Goyim in the Ekklesia. There are indeed physical males and females. Else Paul wouldn't have given detailed instructions on lifestyle to both males and females. But in the eyes of the Lord who redeemed them, there is no difference. That is indeed in a spiritual sense.

I assume by "Goyim" you mean non-Jews?
Jews could also be referred to as "Judeans", those who practice the OC religion of Judaism and were centered around Judea/Jerusalem.

Paul mentions Judaism. He was of the House of Judah, tribe of Benjamin:

Galatians 1:
13 for ye did hear of my behaviour once in Judaism, that exceedingly I was persecuting the Assembly/Ekklesia of God, and wasting it,
14 and I was advancing in Judaism above many equals in age in mine own race, being more abundantly zealous of my fathers' deliverances,

John 11:54
Thus Jesus no longer went around publicly among the Judeans, but departed thence into the country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim; and there he tarried with the disciples.

And here is Paul telling his followers to come out of OC Judaism and the circumcision, and into the NC of worshiping in spirit:

2 Corinthians 6:17
wherefore come-forth out of midst of them! and be being separated! is saying Lord
and an unclean-thing no ye be touching! and I shall be accepting ye

Just as Jesus is telling the Judeans to flee to the mountains and depart from the City as the Roman army was going to desolate the City in 70ad:

Matthew 24:16
then those in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Mark 13:14
"But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Luke 21:21
Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Those who are inside the City must depart. Those who are out in the country must not enter it,

And again that is repeated in Revelation to God's elect chosen:

Revelation 18:4
And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My people......................

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jew.htm

According to Strong's Greek Lexicon, the English word "Jewry" in this verse was translated from the Greek word #2449 Ioudaia {ee-oo-dah'-yah} feminine for the land of Judea. Modern translations no longer use the word "Jewry" but the correct translation, "Judea," as in the New American Standard Bible: "And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill Him."
The New International Version uses the same word. However, these translations continue to improperly use the word "Jews" in the same verse. A consistent translation would read: ". . . He was unwilling to walk in Judea, because the Judeans were seeking to kill Him."..............

In the Bible the word "Jew" means a resident of the land of Judaea regardless of their tribe, race or religion just as an Australian or Englishman may in fact be a Chinese, Negro or an Eskimo, or perhaps a member of the tribe of Judah (Judahite). According to the Greek Lexicon in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

Jew: Greek word #2453 Ioudaios (ee-oo-dah'-yos); from #2448 (in the sense of #2455 as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah ["Judah" in Hebrew language of Old Testament]: KJV Jew (-ess), of Judaea.

 

[Copperhead]

I assume by "Goyim" you mean non-Jews?

You should assume what the word means.... the nations... non Hebrew.

You went to great lengths to dig out some references to delineate who you think Jews are. When all you had to do is read who they are in Ezra and Nehemiah. Jew and Israel are interchangeable terms that mean the same people. Strong's concordance is not scripture, even though some use it like it is.

First off, many of the northern tribes migrated south and joined with the southern tribes. There are many instances of that in 2 Chronicles, including one event that occurred 100 years AFTER the northern kingdom had been taken over by the Assyrians, showing that the Northern tribes were not "lost".

Therefore, when the Southern Kingdom was taken over, people of all the tribes went into the Babylonian exile.

When allowed to return, the remnant that Ezra brought back from Babylon, he referred to them as Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. Reflecting all the tribes.

The remnant that Nehemiah brought back from Babylon, he referred to them Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. Reflecting all the tribes.

In other words, by the time of the end of the Babylonian exile, the term Jew and Israel had become interchangeable terms for the collective 12 tribes. And it remained that way thru the time of Yeshua on thru to today and affirmed as such by Ezekiel. The 12 tribes were only delineated by land portions established when they conquered the land after coming out of Egypt. When those land portions were eliminated, the people of all the tribes became a collective group.

The division of the tribes no longer is an issue. They are all of Jacob (Israel). The only way one could argue that the northern tribes are "lost" is in reference to their being commingled with the southern tribes with no more land delineations to segregate them.

Even Paul uses Jew and Israel interchangeably to reference who he considered his physical brethren. He even calls himself and Israeli while at the same time distinguishing that he is of the tribe of Benjamin, Judean.

Philippians 3:4-5 (NASB) although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

Those references about those in Judea fleeing is a reference to a specific land area, not a tribal delineation. Jerusalem is in the area of Judea, and Jerusalem has always had members of the various tribes within it over the millennia.

Some should be careful that in straining at a gnat, they don't end up swallowing a camel.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Be careful that in straining at a gnat, you don't end up swallowing a camel.

Careful is good........

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works.
These things are good and profitable to men.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You should assume what the word means.... the nations... non Hebrew.

You went to great lengths to dig out some references to delineate who you think Jews are. When all you had to do is read who they are in Ezra and Nehemiah. Jew and Israel are interchangeable terms that mean the same people. Strong's concordance is not scripture, even though some use it like it is.

First off, many of the northern tribes migrated south and joined with the southern tribes. There are many instances of that in 2 Chronicles, including one event that occurred 100 years AFTER the northern kingdom had been taken over by the Assyrians, showing that the Northern tribes were not "lost".

Therefore, when the Southern Kingdom was taken over, people of all the tribes went into the Babylonian exile.

When allowed to return, the remnant that Ezra brought back from Babylon, he referred to them as Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. Reflecting all the tribes.

The remnant that Nehemiah brought back from Babylon, he referred to them Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. Reflecting all the tribes.

In other words, by the time of the end of the Babylonian exile, the term Jew and Israel had become interchangeable terms for the collective 12 tribes. And it remained that way thru the time of Yeshua on thru to today and affirmed as such by Ezekiel. The 12 tribes were only delineated by land portions established when they conquered the land after coming out of Egypt. When those land portions were eliminated, the people of all the tribes became a collective group.

The division of the tribes no longer is an issue. They are all of Jacob (Israel). The only way one could argue that the northern tribes are "lost" is in reference to their being commingled with the southern tribes with no more land delineations to segregate them.

Even Paul uses Jew and Israel interchangeably to reference who he considered his physical brethren. He even calls himself and Israeli while at the same time distinguishing that he is of the tribe of Benjamin, Judean.

Philippians 3:4-5 (NASB) although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

Those references about those in Judea fleeing is a reference to a specific land area, not a tribal delineation. Jerusalem is in the area of Judea, and Jerusalem has always had members of the various tribes within it over the millennia.

Some should be careful that in straining at a gnat, they don't end up swallowing a camel.

So we can disregard Genesis 49?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

dp

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

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[OldWiseGuy]

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[OldWiseGuy]

You should assume what the word means.... the nations... non Hebrew.

You went to great lengths to dig out some references to delineate who you think Jews are. When all you had to do is read who they are in Ezra and Nehemiah. Jew and Israel are interchangeable terms that mean the same people. Strong's concordance is not scripture, even though some use it like it is.

First off, many of the northern tribes migrated south and joined with the southern tribes. There are many instances of that in 2 Chronicles, including one event that occurred 100 years AFTER the northern kingdom had been taken over by the Assyrians, showing that the Northern tribes were not "lost".

Therefore, when the Southern Kingdom was taken over, people of all the tribes went into the Babylonian exile.

When allowed to return, the remnant that Ezra brought back from Babylon, he referred to them as Jews 9 times and Israel 40 times. Reflecting all the tribes.

The remnant that Nehemiah brought back from Babylon, he referred to them Jews 11 times and Israel 22 times. Reflecting all the tribes.

In other words, by the time of the end of the Babylonian exile, the term Jew and Israel had become interchangeable terms for the collective 12 tribes. And it remained that way thru the time of Yeshua on thru to today and affirmed as such by Ezekiel. The 12 tribes were only delineated by land portions established when they conquered the land after coming out of Egypt. When those land portions were eliminated, the people of all the tribes became a collective group.

The division of the tribes no longer is an issue. They are all of Jacob (Israel). The only way one could argue that the northern tribes are "lost" is in reference to their being commingled with the southern tribes with no more land delineations to segregate them.

Even Paul uses Jew and Israel interchangeably to reference who he considered his physical brethren. He even calls himself and Israeli while at the same time distinguishing that he is of the tribe of Benjamin, Judean.

Philippians 3:4-5 (NASB) although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

Those references about those in Judea fleeing is a reference to a specific land area, not a tribal delineation. Jerusalem is in the area of Judea, and Jerusalem has always had members of the various tribes within it over the millennia.

Some should be careful that in straining at a gnat, they don't end up swallowing a camel.

While all the tribes may have been represented by a few within Judea the bulk of the ten tribes were driven north, by God, to fulfill their prophetic destinies, and to provide a welcoming place for the new testament church to grow.

 

[Copperhead]

Oops... double post

 

[Copperhead]

So we can disregard Genesis 49?

Non applicable to what is being discussed. Genesis 49 is regarding destinies of the various tribal distinctions, not their identities.

 

[Copperhead]

While all the tribes may have been represented by a few within Judea the bulk of the ten tribes were driven north, by God, to fulfill their prophetic destinies, and to provide a welcoming place for the new testament church to grow.

There is no external evidence that the bulk of the ten tribes were driven north. Archeological evidence suggests that Sargon of Assyria only relocated about 26,000 to 28,000 of the northern tribes. And there is scripture support (2 Chronicles) that many of the northern tribes were still migrating south 100 years after the Assyrian conquest.

There is no scripture evidence of what you suggest, that the northern tribes were driven north. There is ample scripture evidence that the bulk of all the tribes remained in Babylon after that exile and did not return with Ezra or Nehemiah. It is more likely that they are the source of the dispersion since they are the ones who rebelled by not returning to the land when allowed to by Cyrus.

So while I don't dispute a dispersion of the Hebrew people throughout the world, I do dispute the source of that dispersion. And please help me out here..... where in scripture does it say this dispersion was to provide a welcoming place for the NT church to grow? Everything I have read in scripture implies that it was to punish Israel for it's disobedience.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Non applicable to what is being discussed. Genesis 49 is regarding destinies of the various tribal distinctions, not their identities.

Genesis 49 indicates that the descendants of the 'lost' tribes exist in the latter days outside of Judea, the Jews excepted of course. If they were in the last dispersion (70 A.D.) they could be tracked and identified as are the Jews.