On idols, icons, and idolatry

[Alithis]

I was watching a Roman Mass on EWTN and it brought up a question for me.

All around the church there were crucifixes, icons of Mary, Jesus, etc. But up behind the altar there was a replica of the Ark of the Covenant, complete with cherubim.

Question is, if you believe icons to be idolatry, is the replica of the Ark as idolatrous as the icons themselves?

yes

 

[Alithis]

An idol is an inanimate object ascribed powers of a god and worshipped as a God. Icons, images, statues are not idols unless you mistakenly believe they are gods. If you like to play golf more than you like to go to church, golf is not an idol...unless of course you worship your 9-iron. I hold little regard for pastors and teachers that promote a false understanding about idols.

that in itself is false ....the new testement calls greed (covetousness) "idolatry"
any "thing" which we attribute worth to we risk worshipping.

 

[Alithis]

God wouldn’t have approved idols, the Ark of the covenant wasn’t an idol as no worship was given to it, just as icons or statues in Churches aren’t idols.

the ark ,the container holding the covenant
,its detailed content written in theescrolls of the law,stated you shall not make your selves any image of anything ,nor pray to it or bow to it (to bow means to submit to it as an authority of any kind) so yes a copy is a violation of the covenant ,as is a satue of mary ,both idolatry and great wickedness.
no love for God when his words are ignored then the disobedience is self justified.

 

[PaulCyp1]

"Icons" are not "idolatry". Statues are not "idolatry". Images are not "idolatry". WORSHIP of icons or statues or images or anything else other than God is idolatry. The definition of "idolatry" is "WORSHIP of anything or anyone other than God". In such a case, the worshipped items become idols. But if they are not WORSHIPPED, they are not idols, and no idolatry is taking place. Surely you cannot believe that members of such churches WORSHIP these inanimate objects instead of, or in addition to God?

 

[Rovella]

Except we cannot and should not feel like we can or should judge another man by his actions (that we can see) at a certain point and/in time, ect... We're not God, I leave that to him, or at least try to...

God can we can't in that case...

God Bless!

Yes! God dose care....He dose not want anything you do or have above him...He says He dose not want know other gods before him...In other words..That means if you love something more than you do God...Then you are putting that above God...and before him...Know matter what it is...

 

[Phronema]

Yet, the Catholic/Orthodox churchs sanction the use of icons, and quite often use icons as 'necessary' means to reach out to/petition God. So in that respect, such a mediator is blasphemy.

The part I bolded is incorrect when referring to the Orthodox church, and is likely false for the Catholic church as well. Icons are definitely not necessary as a means of reaching out to God, but they're helpful. They're definitely not considered any sort of mediator, and honestly I've never heard anyone make that comment regarding them before. It basically boils down to using them as a tool to assist in worshiping Christ.

The 7th Ecumenical Council upheld the iconodules' position. If you'd like some information on the Orthodox position concerning icons, and some information on the 7th Ecumenical Council please see below.

Concerning the teaching of icons
Venerating icons, having them in churches and homes, is what the Church teaches. They are "open books to remind us of God." Those who lack the time or learning to study theology need only to enter a church to see the mysteries of the Christian religion unfolded before them.

Concerning the doctrinal significance of icons
Icons are necessary and essential because they protect the full and proper doctrine of the Incarnation. While God cannot be represented in His eternal nature ("...no man has seen God", John 1:18), He can be depicted simply because He "became human and took flesh." Of Him who took a material body, material images can be made. In so taking a material body, God proved that matter can be redeemed. He deified matter, making it spirit-bearing, and so if flesh can be a medium for the Spirit, so can wood or paint, although in a different fashion.
I do not worship matter, but the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, who through matter effected my salvation... —St. John of Damascus

The seventh and last Ecumenical Council upheld the iconodules' postion in AD 787. They proclaimed: Icons... are to be kept in churches and honored with the same relative veneration as is shown to other material symbols, such as the 'precious and life-giving Cross' and the Book of the Gospels. The 'doctrine of icons' is tied to the Orthodox teaching that all of God's creation is to be redeemed and glorified, both spiritual and material.

Also from St. John of Damascus,
Concerning the charge of idolatry: Icons are not idols but symbols, therefore when an Orthodox venerates an icon, he is not guilty of idolatry. He is not worshipping the symbol, but merely venerating it. Such veneration is not directed toward wood, or paint or stone, but towards the person depicted. Therefore relative honor is shown to material objects, but worship is due to God alone.
We do not make obeisance to the nature of wood, but we revere and do obeisance to Him who was crucified on the Cross... When the two beams of the Cross are joined together I adore the figure because of Christ who was crucified on the Cross, but if the beams are separated, I throw them away and burn them. —St. John of Damascus

 

[Neogaia777]

Exodus 20:3-5...

“You shall have no other gods before Me.

(IOW's) “You shall not make for yourself a "carved image"— (IOW's) any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Is God implying that you "hate him" when you do this...?

I know what it means to me, the rest of you can wrestle with it if you want...

God Bless!

 

[The Times]

"Icons" are not "idolatry". Statues are not "idolatry". Images are not "idolatry".

True.

WORSHIP of icons or statues or images or anything else other than God is idolatry.

True.

In addition to worshipping any person or persons outside of the Trinity.

The definition of "idolatry" is "WORSHIP of anything or anyone other than God". In such a case, the worshipped items become idols. But if they are not WORSHIPPED, they are not idols, and no idolatry is taking place.

You are using the term worship in claiming what constitutes idolatry, without defining what worship is from a biblical context and yet after closely examining the process of your argument, I find that you are going around in circles in an effort to defining out the term worship from the question of idolatry.

In other words, I believe that your intention are not to define what worship constitutes under the New Covenant, but you are attempting to define out the term worship itself from the question of idolatry.

Do you see that?

You haven't defined what worship is biblically and have not made the connection between worship and idolatry from a Glorification point of you.

In that the only true glorification biblically speaking is declared by Jesus himself as follows...

And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:13)

Jesus prays to be glorified
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. (John 17:1-5)

So that the act of glorifying a person is a vital determining factor in establishing true worship from false worship.

Fact
Christians glorify the person to whom they make their prayer requests to.

You would not disagree with Jesus that false worship is idolatry, right?

So, what is worship biblically speaking?

It is the tri-partisan testimony within the trinity of the Godhead to request that the subjects of the Cross (Christians) glorify the Father through the Son and this is where John writes...

No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

It is this tri-partisan testimony that we Christians need to glorify and this is what constitutes true worship.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7)

Surely you cannot believe that members of such churches WORSHIP these inanimate objects instead of, or in addition to God?

Worship is the act of glorifying a person, by offering suplicating prayer requests to.

To a Christian inanimate objects in themselves are irrelevant to the question of worship, but rather a more pressing issue is who is being glorified?

You stated...

"The definition of "idolatry" is "WORSHIP of anything or anyone other than God"."

So, since there are three that bear witness of the one true God, who professing Christians ought to worship and to glorify in the spirit, then glorifying and/or making prayer requests to any person outside of the Trinity is by your very own definition counted as idolatry, right?

The Father CANNOT be glorified outside of the persons of the Trinity.

The Father CANNOT be glorified outside of the person of Jesus Christ.

In determining true worship from false worship (idolatry) we need to establish who we are glorifying and making our prayer requests to?

As simple as that, we find that inanimate objects on their own are not what is being glorified, yet the person behind that idol is and who that person is determines whether it be true or false worship.

After all Glorification is the act of Praise and Worship, where Worship cannot be by the biblical definition of the term Glorification removed from the act of Glorifying a person outside of the personhood of Jesus Christ. This by exegetical reasoning is determinant of an act to glorify a person other than God, where glorification and worship are BIBLICALLY intertwined to the question of whether God is being worshipped/glorified or NOT.

Is Mary or saints being Glorified/Worshipped as persons outside of the Trinity of the One True God?

To a Christian it no longer becomes the question of people worshipping/glorifying inanimate objects like statues/icons, but rather who the person behind that statue/icon is who is being glorified/worshipped!

 

[Barney2.0]

the ark ,the container holding the covenant
,its detailed content written in theescrolls of the law,stated you shall not make your selves any image of anything ,nor pray to it or bow to it (to bow means to submit to it as an authority of any kind) so yes a copy is a violation of the covenant ,as is a satue of mary ,both idolatry and great wickedness.
no love for God when his words are ignored then the disobedience is self justified.

If that interpretation is to be taken all forms of pictures would be banned. It also doesn’t say image it says graven image, big difference. An image or statue of Mary used in Church is not a graven image because it is not worshipped above God.

 

[Neogaia777]

If that interpretation is to be taken all forms of pictures would be banned. It also doesn’t say image it says graven image, big difference. An image or statue of Mary used in Church is not a graven image because it is not worshipped above God.

What are different words or different interpretations or translations for the words "graven image"...?

It kinda represented their "media" back then, and part of media, is medium so...

God Bless!

 

[Barney2.0]

What are different words or different interpretations or translations for the words "graven image"...?

It kinda represented their "media" back then, and part of media, is medium so...

God Bless!

Graven image is what God means when he says don’t make your self an image of anything in heaven or on Earth.

 

[Neogaia777]

Graven image is what God means when he says don’t make your self an image of anything in heaven or on Earth.

Yes but other translations put "graven image" differently, and who's right...?

God Bless!

 

[Barney2.0]

Yes but other translations put "graven image" differently, and who's right...?

God Bless!

True, but we know what God means when he says images in the Bible.

 

[Neogaia777]

True, but we know what God means when he says images in the Bible.

And, what's that...?

 

[Barney2.0]

And, what's that...?

When he says images, he means images of worship not all images.

 

[marineimaging]

I was watching a Roman Mass on EWTN and it brought up a question for me.

All around the church there were crucifixes, icons of Mary, Jesus, etc. But up behind the altar there was a replica of the Ark of the Covenant, complete with cherubim.

Question is, if you believe icons to be idolatry, is the replica of the Ark as idolatrous as the icons themselves?

Yes to put it simply. Israel had adopted the worship of idols (and graven images) while in captivity in Egypt for 400 years and God wanted it stopped. Not just stopped in relation to what was happening with His chosen, but in how they were to look at and revere him as well. God always has a reason for both Jew and Gentile in what He does. I really pray that I am not out of line with this notion but I believe it is New Testament scriptural in the reason God might not want us to have idols, even and especially IF it is a representation of, or for, or toward Him, is because anything man can build can be misused, construed and taught as weak, believed to carry the power of, and especially destroyed. God cannot be misused, He is not weak, nothing can carry the power of, and God especially cannot be destroyed so there is NO WAY any physical item can even closely represent the absolute authority and power of our God. The Catholic Church explains away the notion of the use of what we consider idols and symbols but that is not something you can win an argument about with them. As a non-Catholic Christian I personally feel that anything used as a representation of God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit to be an idol and that includes candles, clothing, necklaces in the shape of crosses (or any jewelry for that matter) and especially the Covenant Ark. We were instructed what to do in remembrance of Jesus Christ. That was what we call the Lord's Supper. That is something we do with ceremony and absolute and somber respect. If we are instructed to do it then the fruit of the vine and the unleavened bread are not idols. If we were to make them into something that is of our own doing, say to add something, or take away from it, then we are rewriting the Word of God.

 

[Neogaia777]

When he says images, he means images of worship not all images.

So Idolizing an image not of worship is OK then...?

 

[Barney2.0]

So Idolizing an image not of worship is OK then...?

The only way to idolize an image by the Biblical definition is to give it worship or turn it into a god in its own right.

 

[Neogaia777]

The only way to idolize an image by the Biblical definition is to give it worship or turn it into a god in its own right.

And how do we do that...?

 

[Barney2.0]

And how do we do that...?

Worshipping an image, which is not what orthodox do with icons or Catholics with statues.