Sin

[Dorothy Mae]

I've actually heard it said that a man's wife is the best person to ask when trying to gauge how well he is doing in his walk with the Lord.

As a matter of fact, there were times in my marriage when my wife didn't hesitate to call me selfish when that shoe was the one that fit.

She is actually quite brutal and honest when it comes to those types of things.

To @Dorothy Mae.

The spouse is often the one who sings the praises of the person because they have a personal interest in their spouse being "good" or what is praise worthy. I have heard spouses praise their partner in ways that were astoundingly untrue. They simply wanted it to be so.

Again, Jesus asked his enemies if they could point out a sin in his life, not his friend. Go and do likewise if you want to claim all selfishenss is gone.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Actually, the statement that Moses was the meekest man on the face of the earth did come from Moses' pen.

It is not pride to understand that you are bearing the fruit of the Spirit (of which goodness is one). And it is not my goodness, it is His.

btw, it says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, not to work for it. A lot of people get that confused.

Why wouldn't someone who is filled with the Holy Spirit say that you need to come to the end of yourself? It seems to me that that is exactly what the Spirit Himself would say.

It might be pride to talk about how you are subjugating your flesh all of the time.

Understanding God's forgiveness brings us to the place of loving God and other people (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5).

And I began not by claiming to be a completely unselfish person, but by saying that God has set me free from certain selfish desires. Then you blew that out of proportion and started giving me the twenty questions (that is a figure of speech).

You also must not have a very good eye to see everything that is before you; because just underneath my moniker I make it clear that my opinion of myself is that I am a justified sinner.

I have found that since I have realized that, God has done a work of sanctifying me in certain areas that are noticeable even to me.

I am not claiming sinless perfection; only that I have noticed that I am a better person now than before I came to that certain revelation. This is not glory to me, nor is it any kind of reason for pride: God gets all the glory for what He has done in me.

Moses did not write all of the first 5 books of the Bible alone. It is clear that someone else was part of it. Moses, for example, did not write of his death and burial. So that means that someone wrote that about Moses being the meekest or most humble man on earth. The most humble man on earth never writes he is so as that is very prideful. See the problem?

When one is striving against sin, then whether one is working out your salvation or working your salvation does not matter. One is not working FOR one's salvation though. That is different.

It is not understanding God's forgiveness that bring one to loving God. It is understanding the depth of our sin.

The Bible advises struggling against sin from beginning to end. No one seemed to think it prideful. To claim you are full of goodness or gentleness could be very prideful. To claim you refused from doing wrong is not. Do you see the difference? It is rather humbling to have to admit one was tempted in the first place.

Now, I apologize for assuming you claim something others don’t. But take the advise of someone who has walked with God for over 40 years. You will be tested in exactly the points you were freed from. I rejoice He’s done a marvelous work in you. That work is real. But go through the testing and then you know you stand.

Another thing, if you have been given more love for others, which seems to be the case, fan that flame. The day will come when you will have to choose between your pleasure or even need and that of others. He will not overwhelm you and make it no choice. That is the moment when raw will power aids you. It’s not “I don’t want to sin” although that’s ok too, but “I want to please Him” as a choice. He will not do this for you. When you pass the test, a deeper walk with Him is the reward.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Which means none of us has hit the mark with every move we make.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

So we start the discussion of sin with the admission that we all do sin.

This casual attitude about sin makes me think about how a groom would feel if his bride said, we all know that we all committ sin and since adultery is sin, we both know I’ll commit adultery from time to time.

 

[Oldmantook]

They were not true believers. If anyone has a living faith in Jesus, they are saved, Ephesians 2:8-9. Are you trying to defend the concept that you yourself are a believer because you yourself desire to sin? John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30 all show that those who have faith in Jesus are eternally secure in Him. I qualify it by 1 John 2:17 w/ 1 John 3:6. A true believer in Jesus is not a worker of iniquity, that is the conclusion I make from my long study of the scriptures over a period of over 28 years.

You managed to avoid explaining how an unbeliever can use the name of Jesus to cast out demons and do the supernatural all in Jesus' name. That is problematic for your position. Also Jesus plainly stated that he commanded them to depart not because the were unbelievers but because they practiced inequity - in other words they were disobedient which is perfectly consistent with Heb 5:9. While a true believer is not a worker of inequity, those true believers who subsequently succumb to the practice of inequity are no longer believers/saved and therein lies the difference that you fail to account for.

However, impaho, a true believer will never cease to believe.

Don't those true believers in 1 Tim 4:1 cease to believe? Yes or no? The verse plainly states that they will fall away/depart from the faith. It is impossible for those who are not true believers to depart from something they were never a part of. Your explanation does not bear up to the scrutiny of this verse as it states that believers will cease to believe and instead follow deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

Hebrews 5:9 is tricky. It is actually, in context, talking about obedience to Melchizedec. However I would say that this scripture, along with Acts of the Apostles 5:32, tells us, not that we must obey God in order to be saved or continue to be saved; but rather that if we are truly saved we will continue to obey God, see Ezekiel 36:25-27, Philippians 2:13.

Not tricky at all. Who is the "Him" in this verse? Is it not Jesus? So if we are not obeying Jesus, we don't have eternal salvation. Plain and simple; very easy to understand that even a child can understand it. Eternal life is given to those who are obeying Jesus. Only true believers are capable of obeying Jesus in the first place. Those believers who of their own volition stray and disobey Jesus are no longer saved.

Can Satan dwell in the same place that the Holy Spirit is dwelling? I don't think so, 1 John 4:4 tells me otherwise, along with Mark 3:27.

Unfortunately, your references do not support your belief. 1 Jn 4:4 refers to those who have OVERCOME. Do you think this verse refers to anyone who practices sin/inequity as an overcomer? I doubt it and think you have misappropriated this verse. We overcome when we remain obedient. On the other hand, when we fail to remain obedient we give the devil a foothold (Eph 4:26-27).
You also wholly misappropriate Mk 3:27. This verse talks about Satan's kingdom- not God's temple (our bodies) in which the Holy Spirit dwells. Do you deny that Satan gains a foothold when a believer holds on to anger according to Eph 4:27? Do you deny that Jesus referred to Peter as "get behind me Satan" in Matt 16:23? Do you deny that Satan entered Judas in Lk 22:3?

Actually, you have added to the text by saying that they lied to the Holy Spirit as he dwelt in them. The text does not say that; and in fact, it shows clearly to me that they were not punished when they were planning out their lie, but when they told their lie to Peter. The text bears evidence to the fact that they lied to the Holy Spirit in Peter, therefore.

Don't believes already have the Spirit indwelling them? They lied to God/Spirit precisely because they were indwelt by the Spirit and had a relationship with God. Unbelievers have no such relationship and cannot lie to God. The told their lie to Peter and to God as the verse reads: "You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” Acts 5:4

It does make sense. In those days it was the beginning of the New Testament church, and God was jealous for His holiness: therefore He made an example of Ananias and Saphira. The text in no way requires that they had to be truly born again. God judges the wicked as well as the just.

Based on your premise, he made an example of Ananias & Sapphira who were unbelievers? Why would God make an example of unbelievers? If he were jealous of his holiness who would require true believers to maintain their holiness - not unbelievers who are unable to be holy in the first place. Your rationalization makes no sense.

See 1 John 3:5-9, which I interpret to mean that when a man is born again, his life is radically changed so that he no longer desires sin.

No where in this passage is the word "desire." No where in the Greek text is the word equivalent to the English word "desire." You have again added your own word into the text - a dangerous thing to do.
Also you response to whether you sin or not is unclear to me. Can you simply answer - do you sin? A simple yes or no will suffice.

People who are not genuinely saved can be "in the faith"--that is, they can be professing Christians who go to church and do everything that a Christian does. It has been said that walking into a church doesn't make you born again any more than walking into a garage makes you a car.

How can an unbeliever be "in the faith." To apostatize means to depart from the faith. It is impossible for unbelievers to depart from the faith since they were not "in the faith" to begin with. Your explanation is exceedingly weak.
1 Tim 1:19-20 contradicts your view: "holding on to faith and a good conscience,which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme."

John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, and Hebrews 13:5 all speak of eternal security...they are promises that can be obtained through faith by anyone. See 2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, and Romans 4:20-22.

Jn 5:24/Jn 6:47 - the word "believes" is a present tense participle. One must continue believing - not a past moment of belief in order to possess eternal life.
Jn 10:27-30. Eternal life, not perishing and not being snatched out of the Father's hand is only promised to those sheep who listen and follow the Shepherd. Disobedient sheep are not included.
Heb 13:5 You completely ignore the context. God will not forsake us but it also warns to be free from the love of money. The previous verse warns the believer to keep the marriage bed undefiled for God will judge the adulterer and fornicator.
Eternal life is therefore conditional and not unconditional as you assume.

We are saved by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Those who are redeemed by faith alone in Jesus Christ are regenerated and renewed, transformed (Titus 3:4-7, Romans 12:1-2). We have been forgiven much, and therefore we love much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5); and this love is a practical love (1 John 3:18) that is the fulfilling of the law's righteousness within us (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

Then why does God judge all the churches in Revelation by their works? Just because we are forgiven, it does not automatically entail that we will forgive. Jesus plainly stated that if we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us. Do you disagree with Jesus?

Because the subject wasn't sanctification, it was justification. Yes, good works are usually the result of a living faith. However, we are saved by a living faith alone.

No. James 2:24 states we are JUSTIFIED (not sanctified) by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE. Just what part of that don't you understand?

 

[RDKirk]

This casual attitude about sin makes me think about how a groom would feel if his bride said, we all know that we all committ sin and since adultery is sin, we both know I’ll commit adultery from time to time.

That's what you think about it, and you're wrong.

There's nothing casual about becoming aware of how far one is from being sinless.

For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

About thirty years ago, I began an exercise. Each night, after prayer, I asked the Holy Spirit to walk me through the day I'd just completed and show me, minute-by-minute, decision-by-decision, choice-by-choice where I had failed to do exactly what was in the Father's mind for me to do, where I failed to be exactly where the Father wanted me to be that moment.

I did that every night for several weeks.

Then I gave it up. It was taking me far, far into the night and it was severely depressing.

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That's what you think about it, and you're wrong.

There's nothing casual about becoming aware of how far one is from being sinless.

For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

About thirty years ago, I began an exercise. Each night, after prayer, I asked the Holy Spirit to walk me through the day I'd just completed and show me, minute-by-minute, decision-by-decision, choice-by-choice where I had failed to do exactly what was in the Father's mind for me to do, where I failed to be exactly where the Father wanted me to be that moment.

I did that every night for several weeks.

Then I gave it up. It was taking me far, far into the night and it was severely depressing.

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

If you don’t let the Holy Spirit show you your sin, you can blissfully say you got none or cover them up with a “one prayer covers all” instead of confessing and repenting. They never eliminated of course.

I’ve ask God to search my heart and ways from time to time for decades. Never took very long. Never found it depressing but cleansing.

 

[RDKirk]

If you don’t let the Holy Spirit show you your sin, you can blissfully say you got none or cover them up with a “one prayer covers all” instead of confessing and repenting. They never eliminated of course.

That cannot be honestly derived from anything I said.

 

[justbyfaith]

This assumption that being "in Christ" is some kind of special state where what we do does not matter is a curious theology. The love of Christ Himself is not apparent but the love of the self is very apparent. No thought for loving God which prevents a man from sinning and no thought for loving man which equally prevents a man from choosing sin crosses the thinking. "What sin can I do and not affect my salvation" seems to be the goal and the vehicle is telling oneself on is "in christ" as some promised state. One is in christ when one is walking with christ. No relationship means not being in or with Christ. And sin means the relationship experiences a separation. Before we were saved and afterwards which is why repentance and restoration is needed.

For me, the understanding that I am forgiven of my sin nature and therefore of past, present, and future individual acts of sin has been something that produces the love of God in me (see Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5). If one is in Christ then his disposition isn't towards sinning, is what I said. If my disposition isn't towards sinning, then I am in Christ and His blood paid the penalty for my sin and therefore I am forgiven even before I commit the sin.

I am glad. But lately restored is not enough time to see if you are now never going to be selfish again. I really am glad though. But there has not passed enough time. You need to face the test of how others behave or having a bad day and how you still treat others. I would that it were true, by the way. I just read this claim too often and then read posts that are not at all what the person claims their character how is.

That seems to me like it is a cynical outlook on things. To each his own, I suppose.

The spouse is often the one who sings the praises of the person because they have a personal interest in their spouse being "good" or what is praise worthy. I have heard spouses praise their partner in ways that were astoundingly untrue. They simply wanted it to be so.

Again, Jesus asked his enemies if they could point out a sin in his life, not his friend. Go and do likewise if you want to claim all selfishness is gone.

Now of course I am not claiming that all unselfishness is gone. After all, I do love my wife (see Ephesians 5:28b).

Moses did not write all of the first 5 books of the Bible alone. It is clear that someone else was part of it. Moses, for example, did not write of his death and burial. So that means that someone wrote that about Moses being the meekest or most humble man on earth. The most humble man on earth never writes he is so as that is very prideful. See the problem?

I always thought it was rather funny that Moses is the author of that verse. I made the conclusion that true humility, in part, means that one has an accurate view of himself; not necessarily that he puts himself down to other people.

When one is striving against sin, then whether one is working out your salvation or working your salvation does not matter. One is not working FOR one's salvation though. That is different.

It is not understanding God's forgiveness that bring one to loving God. It is understanding the depth of our sin.

It is both (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19).

The Bible advises struggling against sin from beginning to end. No one seemed to think it prideful. To claim you are full of goodness or gentleness could be very prideful. To claim you refused from doing wrong is not. Do you see the difference? It is rather humbling to have to admit one was tempted in the first place.

To claim you are full of goodness might simply be agreeing with scripture by faith (Romans 15:15 in particular). Goodness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Understanding that I have goodness is not prideful as long as I understand that the goodness is not my own and does not come from me.

Now, I apologize for assuming you claim something others don’t. But take the advise of someone who has walked with God for over 40 years. You will be tested in exactly the points you were freed from. I rejoice He’s done a marvelous work in you. That work is real. But go through the testing and then you know you stand.

There is a principle that I discovered in God's word that makes me immune to the wet paint principle (I will post a link to the thread that has my dissertation on it shortly). Laying hold on the fact that I am forgiven of past, present, and future sin because I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law has proven to be a key to victory over what used to so easily beset me. For the strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56).

Another thing, if you have been given more love for others, which seems to be the case, fan that flame. The day will come when you will have to choose between your pleasure or even need and that of others. He will not overwhelm you and make it no choice. That is the moment when raw will power aids you. It’s not “I don’t want to sin” although that’s ok too, but “I want to please Him” as a choice. He will not do this for you. When you pass the test, a deeper walk with Him is the reward.

Thank you for the advice; but I believe that as long as I stay in God's word He will continue to pour in the love. I don't plan on running on empty at any time in the future. I think that white-knuckling the love of God would be in effect trying to muster it up in the power of the flesh. Therefore I don't think that raw willpower is the answer; but rather abiding in Christ, cultivating a relationship with Him on a daily basis is the key to loving people in those hard situations.

 

[justbyfaith]

Freedom From Sin: Overcoming the Wet Paint Principle (the complete version):

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...paint-principle-the-complete-version.8043488/

 

[justbyfaith]

You managed to avoid explaining how an unbeliever can use the name of Jesus to cast out demons and do the supernatural all in Jesus' name. That is problematic for your position. Also Jesus plainly stated that he commanded them to depart not because the were unbelievers but because they practiced inequity - in other words they were disobedient which is perfectly consistent with Heb 5:9. While a true believer is not a worker of inequity, those true believers who subsequently succumb to the practice of inequity are no longer believers/saved and therein lies the difference that you fail to account for.

Simply that there is power in the name of Jesus whether it is invoked by a believer or an unbeliever.

Don't those true believers in 1 Tim 4:1 cease to believe? Yes or no? The verse plainly states that they will fall away/depart from the faith. It is impossible for those who are not true believers to depart from something they were never a part of. Your explanation does not bear up to the scrutiny of this verse as it states that believers will cease to believe and instead follow deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.

As I said before, the people in 1 Timothy 4:1 were not true believers. They are a part of the visible church and therefore are considered to be in the faith because of church attendance and certain outward behaviours; but an inward faith is absent; they were not of the true church (see 1 John 2:19).

Not tricky at all. Who is the "Him" in this verse? Is it not Jesus? So if we are not obeying Jesus, we don't have eternal salvation. Plain and simple; very easy to understand that even a child can understand it. Eternal life is given to those who are obeying Jesus. Only true believers are capable of obeying Jesus in the first place. Those believers who of their own volition stray and disobey Jesus are no longer saved.

Then salvation is of works, contrary to Ephesians 2:9 and context. Also: in context, Hebrews 5:9 is speaking of obedience to Melchizedec. But even if it is speaking of obedience to Jesus, as does Acts of the Apostles 5:32, the wording of these scriptures allows for the interpretation that those who have a living faith in Jesus will continue to obey God; not that they must continue to obey God in order to maintain their salvation. And this is more consistent with the rest of what the scripture teaches.

Unfortunately, your references do not support your belief. 1 Jn 4:4 refers to those who have OVERCOME. Do you think this verse refers to anyone who practices sin/inequity as an overcomer? I doubt it and think you have misappropriated this verse. We overcome when we remain obedient. On the other hand, when we fail to remain obedient we give the devil a foothold (Eph 4:26-27).
You also wholly misappropriate Mk 3:27. This verse talks about Satan's kingdom- not God's temple (our bodies) in which the Holy Spirit dwells. Do you deny that Satan gains a foothold when a believer holds on to anger according to Eph 4:27? Do you deny that Jesus referred to Peter as "get behind me Satan" in Matt 16:23? Do you deny that Satan entered Judas in Lk 22:3?

Of course my position is that a true believer is not a worker of iniquity and is an overcomer. He that dwells in the true believer is greater than any demon or satan. And the principle in Mark 3:27 is that in order to invade a home, one must be stronger than the one dwelling in it already. If Jesus, even the Holy Spirit, is dwelling in the house of my body, He is a Strongman that must be overcome of the demons or satan if they want to enter and dwell there. And He is also greater than any of them. And of course if demons or satan are dwelling there, then Jesus is stringer and when He comes to invade that person's life, the demons or satan have to get out. It goes along with what Jesus said elsewhere in context of how a demon goes through dry places seeking rest, and then decides to go back to the place he was dwelling before, finds it empty swept, and garnished, and then goes and takes seven more demons more wicked than himself and goes and dwells there; and Jesus said, He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth (Luke 11:23). The key word to the statement is that the house was empty; Jesus was not dwelling there: and therefore the demon was able to gain entrance. It is the principle in Mark 3:27 that I have referred to, not necessarily what it is talking about in its context.

The Holy Spirit was not yet given when Jesus said, "get thee behind me, satan!" to Peter (John 7:37-39). And Judas was a devil; he was not a true believer from the beginning (John 6:70-71).

Don't believes already have the Spirit indwelling them? They lied to God/Spirit precisely because they were indwelt by the Spirit and had a relationship with God. Unbelievers have no such relationship and cannot lie to God. The told their lie to Peter and to God as the verse reads: "You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” Acts 5:4

I'm saying that because Satan filled their hearts, Ananias and Saphira could not have been true believers. Believers can't be demon-possessed, neither can they be possessed by satan himself.

Based on your premise, he made an example of Ananias & Sapphira who were unbelievers? Why would God make an example of unbelievers? If he were jealous of his holiness who would require true believers to maintain their holiness - not unbelievers who are unable to be holy in the first place. Your rationalization makes no sense.

Ananias and Saphira claimed to believers; and they were claiming to be highly virtuous by their actions in the story. Have you forgotten the story in question? God was saying that He was not going to tolerate hypocrisy like that in the visible church.

No where in this passage is the word "desire." No where in the Greek text is the word equivalent to the English word "desire." You have again added your own word into the text - a dangerous thing to do.
Also you response to whether you sin or not is unclear to me. Can you simply answer - do you sin? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Okay, if you want to go there, then the literal interpretation says that those who are born again cannot sin. I would ask you, do you sin? if you do, then you are not born again according to the literal interpretation (since you seem to be adamant about taking that scripture more literally).

In answer to your questioning that of me, I believe that the answer of "I don't know" is valid (see 1 Corinthians 4:4). But I know that in my own prayer of salvation, I said to God, "My sin is ever before me." (Psalms 51:3).

How can an unbeliever be "in the faith." To apostatize means to depart from the faith. It is impossible for unbelievers to depart from the faith since they were not "in the faith" to begin with. Your explanation is exceedingly weak.
1 Tim 1:19-20 contradicts your view: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck. Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered over to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."(kjv: changed by me because I am kjv-superior in my view)

It appears to me that this scripture says that some people have put away a good conscience and have made shipwreck concerning faith. Now Paul handed them over to the devil as a disciplinary action, which had the purpose of hopefully saving their spirit on the day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 5:5). Therefore I consider that anyone who has true faith but makes shipwreck concerning the faith, if they are of the elect of the Lord, when they suffer shipwreck, they become as the prodigal son; and as soon as they see the conditions of what it is like in the pigpen, they will say, "I will return and come back home to my Father." They may be unbelieving while in the pigpen, but this does not change their position as being children of the Most High.

In answer to your question, an unbeliever can be visibly in the faith if he or she is a churchgoer and by all practical purposes appears to be a real Christian by their behaviour; while faith is absent. 1 Timothy 4:1 says that some will depart from "the faith" which refers to the religion of Christianity (while real Christianity is not a religion but a relationship); and because what they have is not relationship but religion, when they depart from it they are not departing from salvation but from an outward form of godliness.

Jn 5:24/Jn 6:47 - the word "believes" is a present tense participle. One must continue believing - not a past moment of belief in order to possess eternal life.

Yes, I believe that.

Jn 10:27-30. Eternal life, not perishing and not being snatched out of the Father's hand is only promised to those sheep who listen and follow the Shepherd. Disobedient sheep are not included.

Yes, I believe that also.

Heb 13:5 You completely ignore the context. God will not forsake us but it also warns to be free from the love of money. The previous verse warns the believer to keep the marriage bed undefiled for God will judge the adulterer and fornicator.
Eternal life is therefore conditional and not unconditional as you assume.

Yes it is conditional; but the only condition is that we have faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross. When we truly have that, we are new creatures in Christ, and everything concerning sanctification will fall into place.

btw, the marriage bed is undefiled, we do not have to keep it that way; but of course whoremongering and adultery are apart from the marriage bed.

Then why does God judge all the churches in Revelation by their works? Just because we are forgiven, it does not automatically entail that we will forgive. Jesus plainly stated that if we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us. Do you disagree with Jesus?

I'm afraid you're going to have to give me more specific scripture on the first question.

If we are in Christ, we are a new creature; old things are passed away: behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17). Therefore, as new creatures in Christ, it is in our nature to forgive. The word of God will not return void. Therefore true believers are obedient to Jesus' commandment to forgive.

No. James 2:24 states we are JUSTIFIED (not sanctified) by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE. Just what part of that don't you understand?

We are justified by works before man (see Romans 4:2); not before God. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7). Romans 4:1-8 shows clearly that from God's perspective, it is not works that justifies us but faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Because a living faith means that the love of God is shed abroad in my heart (Romans 5:5); which love is a practical love (1 John 3:18) that is the fulfilling of the law's righteousness within me (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4); therefore the outward evidence that someone is in the faith (by the judgment of man) is by what the man does. But God who sees the heart knows whether someone who has a death-bed conversion and therefore never has the opportunity to do any good works, has a genuine faith or not; and even if he has no works, his faith in Jesus alone will save him if it is a genuine faith (of which God is the judge because He can see what is in the heart).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That cannot be honestly derived from anything I said.

Don’t you read what you write? You said that 30 years ago you used to spend time going through your day and the HS showing you where you were not what God wants but you gave it up. It was too depressing. Now you just pray a “once covers all” prayer for forgiveness. Maybe you don’t realize that asking God to search you and see if there be any wrong way in you is what you gave up.

That is a very casual attitude towards sin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

For me, the understanding that I am forgiven of my sin nature and therefore of past, present, and future individual acts of sin has been something that produces the love of God in me (see Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5). If one is in Christ then his disposition isn't towards sinning, is what I said. If my disposition isn't towards sinning, then I am in Christ and His blood paid the penalty for my sin and therefore I am forgiven even before I commit the sin.

Ah I’m sad to hear you’re embracing the OSAS lie. Your future sins are not forgiven in advance. You might feel love at this license to now sin doctrine but it will work like poison in your soul making sin a lighter and lighter matter. Others who have embraced this false doctrine say a man can murder or rape or do any other horrible sin and was forgiven before he did so and can feel love and peace while continuing. The fear of the Lord will be completely gone.

That seems to me like it is a cynical outlook on things. To each his own, I suppose.

But it isn’t. It’s loving truth. Jesus loves truth too.

Now of course I am not claiming that all unselfishness is gone. After all, I do love my wife (see Ephesians 5:28b).

Ephesians was not written by someone describing you. You cannot quote it as if it was.

I always thought it was rather funny that Moses is the author of that verse. I made the conclusion that true humility, in part, means that one has an accurate view of himself; not necessarily that he puts himself down to other people.

You are right. Your view of humility is correct. But it’s also true Moses was not the sole author of those books. The Bible doesn’t pretend he was.

To claim you are full of goodness might simply be agreeing with scripture by faith (Romans 15:15 in particular). Goodness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Understanding that I have goodness is not prideful as long as I understand that the goodness is not my own and does not come from me.

To claim by faith your BEHAVIOUR is something is not agreeing with the scripture. Fruit comes from plants or trees taking in nourishment. If a barren tree could speak and say “by faith I have apples” we’d think it was insisting on a lie. If a man stands up and says, “by faith I’m patient” and then proceeded to tell the guy next to him to “hurry up,” everyone would KNOW that person lies to himself alone. You cannot claim by faith that your behavior is different than it is.

There is a principle that I discovered in God's word that makes me immune to the wet paint principle (I will post a link to the thread that has my dissertation on it shortly). Laying hold on the fact that I am forgiven of past, present, and future sin because I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law has proven to be a key to victory over what used to so easily beset me. For the strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56).

The theology that promises future sins are forgive will eat at your goodness. The theology that promises that you are free to be lawless (outside of the law) can lead those who fully embrace it to hell. Those are the very ones Jesus tells to go away, the lawless ones.

I once asked a guy who said he was free of all law like you if he was under the law of loving God and man. Are you under that law or freed from it?

Thank you for the advice; but I believe that as long as I stay in God's word He will continue to pour in the love. I don't plan on running on empty at any time in the future. I think that white-knuckling the love of God would be in effect trying to muster it up in the power of the flesh. Therefore I don't think that raw willpower is the answer; but rather abiding in Christ, cultivating a relationship with Him on a daily basis is the key to loving people in those hard situations.

I wish you all the best. My experience and that of many others is the feeling of love that makes it easy to obey does not stay. It’s easy to see why. As long obedience is easy, that is we FEEL like doing the right thing, our characters are not like Christ. He had to obey and go to the cross although he didn’t want to do so. What he asked was a strengthening of the will to obey, not the heart. The heart is weak. The will can be iron strong. But the satisfaction of a will determined to please Him is much more.

The man who purposes to love God with his CHOICES will be the man who knows God as God will draw near to these. The man who just wants the FEELINGS will be tested as to what he does when the feelings are gone for a time. God wants to see if the man loves God or simply the feelings he experiences.

I should add that the love that comes from really knowing God is much much greater than that of merely being forgiven. Much more. So the obedient man knows a greater love than the merely forgiven man. The law the obedient man puts himself under is more encompassing but sweet.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ah I’m sad to hear you’re embracing the OSAS lie. Your future sins are not forgiven in advance. You might feel love at this license to now sin doctrine but it will work like poison in your soul making sin a lighter and lighter matter. Others who have embraced this false doctrine say a man can murder or rape or do any other horrible sin and was forgiven before he did so and can feel love and peace while continuing. The fear of the Lord will be completely gone.

I don't believe in OSAS but in POTS (there is a difference). 1 John 2:17 with 1 John 3:6 is what I believe concerning this in a nutshell. I believe that if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away: behold, all things are become new! (2 Corinthians 5:17). The grace of God is not a license for sinning; it is the reason why I don't sin (Romans 6:14, Titus 2:11-14). Knowing that I am forgiven of past, present, and future sin (Romans 4:6-8, Hebrews 9:12, John 5:24) is a primary reason why I have victory over sin, as one who desires not to sin because I love the Lord. Fear doesn't have to be a motivation when love is all-encompassing (1 John 4:18). If someone murders or rapes they don't have eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

But it isn’t. It’s loving truth. Jesus loves truth too.

Okay; but it is not the truth that I necessarily am destined to backslide just like everybody else; neither that everybody else has to backslide. It is possible for someone to live a consistent Christian walk from the beginning of one's faith to the end of their stay on the planet.

Ephesians was not written by someone describing you. You cannot quote it as if it was.

Try to have a sense of humour; I meant that as a funny.

You are right. Your view of humility is correct. But it’s also true Moses was not the sole author of those books. The Bible doesn’t pretend he was.

There is no reason to believe that Moses was writing one day and then realized the scripture had to say that he was the meekest man on earth, so he called on a friend at that moment and asked him to write it. I believe that the Pentateuch was written by Moses without interruption for the most part; and that only after he died was it necessary for someone else to co-author the books.

To claim by faith your BEHAVIOUR is something is not agreeing with the scripture. Fruit comes from plants or trees taking in nourishment. If a barren tree could speak and say “by faith I have apples” we’d think it was insisting on a lie. If a man stands up and says, “by faith I’m patient” and then proceeded to tell the guy next to him to “hurry up,” everyone would KNOW that person lies to himself alone. You cannot claim by faith that your behavior is different than it is.

I once spoke to a woman of faith and said to her based on Lamentations 3:37-38 that faith teaching was incorrect, that we do not create realities by our words. She told me very gingerly that as believers we are filled with the Spirit of God and therefore He is able to speak through us. And also that in Romans 4:17 He is able to call those things which be not as though they are; and that in doing so He creates a new reality. So if a barren tree said in the power of the Spirit (the Spirit of God speaking through him), "by faith I have apples," it is a reality that may not be in that moment; but because God is calling those things which are not as though they are, it is a reality that shall be, and even is in that moment in the sense that it is as good as done; just like in Romans 8:30 when it says that whom God justified, He also glorified (past tense) when glorification is yet future for many of us who have been justified. It is as good as done; which is indicated by setting it forth in past tense as though it is already done, even though it has not happened yet it is past tense because it has been absolutely accomplished by the words of Jesus on the Cross, Te Telestai (It is finshed)

The theology that promises future sins are forgive will eat at your goodness. The theology that promises that you are free to be lawless (outside of the law) can lead those who fully embrace it to hell. Those are the very ones Jesus tells to go away, the lawless ones.

The promise that we are forgiven of future sins applies only to those who are born again; who, as I have said, have a disposition not to sin because of the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. If anyone is a committer of willful sin in the habitual sense, they should question whether they are born again; and also know that if they are not born again they are not forgiven of future sin unless they get born again at some time in the future.

I once asked a guy who said he was free of all law like you if he was under the law of loving God and man. Are you under that law or freed from it?

It is both. Freed from it in the sense that there is no condemnation: (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:18, Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19)...Under it in the sense that my behaviour is affected by it: (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7, 1 Corinthians 9:21).

There is no condemnation from the law for me as one who is forgiven through faith in the shed blood of Christ (try Romans 4:6-8, Romans 8:1); and because of that the wet paint principle (Romans 7:7-13) no longer has power over me. But the righteousness of the law governs me from the inside because the love of God is shed abroad in my heart through the power of the Holy Ghost (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5, Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8-10).

I wish you all the best. My experience and that of many others is the feeling of love that makes it easy to obey does not stay. It’s easy to see why. As long obedience is easy, that is we FEEL like doing the right thing, our characters are not like Christ. He had to obey and go to the cross although he didn’t want to do so. What he asked was a strengthening of the will to obey, not the heart. The heart is weak. The will can be iron strong. But the satisfaction of a will determined to please Him is much more.

The man who purposes to love God with his CHOICES will be the man who knows God as God will draw near to these. The man who just wants the FEELINGS will be tested as to what he does when the feelings are gone for a time. God wants to see if the man loves God or simply the feelings he experiences.

I should add that the love that comes from really knowing God is much much greater than that of merely being forgiven. Much more. So the obedient man knows a greater love than the merely forgiven man. The law the obedient man puts himself under is more encompassing but sweet.

Indeed; for in 2 Chronicles 32:31, God left Hezekiah so that he could know all that was in his heart.

What I would say though is that apart from God all of us are sinners.

And I am certainly not advocating that we as Christians be disobedient.

I am saying that apart from Him we can do nothing.

And I do agree that our love ought to be a choice: even when we don't feel like obeying, we should obey. On the train of our walk with Christ, the engine is fact, which pulls along faith; and faith pulls along feeling (which is the caboose). If we base our faith on our feelings we are in trouble; and faith will not stand if it is not placed in factual information. Nevertheless, when we place our faith in fact, feelings are sure to follow; and as for obedience, it is best placed between faith and feelings. So that the train looks like this: FEELINGS ----> OBEDIENCE ----> FAITH ----> FACT : with the train moving in the direction of the arrows.

So we also ought not to put our faith in our own obedience.

Now when the train has begun to have momentum, one can turn off the engine and there is the possibility that the train will continue to move for many miles because of that momentum; and often this is because the caboose of the train begins to go faster than the portions of the train that are ahead of it. Thus the train may be pushed along by the weight of the caboose' momentum (especially if the train is moving downhill).

 

[dreadnought]

If I steal your job or you wife or you daughter, you will suffer a lot longer in this life than I will. You pick an example that is not really a sin or a crime depending upon how it happened. Getting a hit in the nost can be an accident. Stealing the above persons is not. You pick innocent unpleasantries that you would suffer from. Pick a real sin next time and you will see that you are wrong.

No, it is the sinner, not the victim of the sin, who suffers the longest.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, it is the sinner, not the victim of the sin, who suffers the longest.

Just close your eyes and insist sin hurts the sinner most. One asks why people do it at all if this is true. You know, the Bible writers knew sin was pleasurable and says so. Even profits a man. Only you seem to think it unpleasant and hurts. This is probably a part of the self first theology I suspect. Everything revolves around the self.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So the unsaved can resist the pull of the flesh from time to time. That would indicate that resisting the pull of the flesh does not define someone as saved.

The saved cannot resist the pull of the flesh either. Just look at all the fat people at church not to mention those who left their spouse for a new one.

What does define us is that we know that we are forgiven.

I think a Christian is one who follows Jesus, not one who has experienced at some point in their lives forgiveness of past sins. Future sins are never forgiven. There is at least one sin that cannot be forgiven at all no matter when it is done. So "all sins are forgiven" is not true even if past.

So you think I am unteachable and have pride.

No, I did not say that. I challenged you to be open. Just consider what I say, that is all.

That may well be true; but when the Lord shows that to me it will be so that He can deal with it in my life. I don't think that understanding that He has wrought a change in my life means that I have pride, however. Or that I am unteachable.

It is better that others say your life has improved than you. I mean you have a real interest that this is so. Others are likely to ber more truthful. "LEt another praise you."

Paul did say in the Bible that he didn't allow a woman to teach or usurp authority over a man. So if I do not respect the opinions of women as much as I might heed what might be said to me by a man, it is for that reason.

You have made a change in what is written. A woman expressing her view, who might actually be a prophetess, is not teaching nor usurping authority over a male. The male who refuses to listen to the prophetess of God, is not responding according to scripture.

Notice Paul said that he personally does not allow this. This might be because females were unlearned in those days and could not read or write. If he had said, I do not permit illiterate to teach nor exercise authority over those who can (the men) it would represent the situation of the day.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Justbyfaith,

I can only implore you to stop listening to the teaching that has gotten ahold of you. The verses you quote do not say what your teacher says they do. Not at all.

Your comments on not trusting in obedience must come from someone who has not obeyed the living God on a matter that was difficult. It comes from someone who does not understand obedience as Jesus knew it. I say this because no one who has obeyed God trusts in their obedience. It is a foreign concept. Same as the man or woman who says "I do" does not tust in that vow to keep their marriage alive , as real as that vow was. The single person might think they trust in the vow. But the marriage person knows different.

The relationship that comes from obeying God is so different than merely trusting a scripture, it is beyond description. When a believer has heard "well done" from the living God, the reason for devotion changes. But it cannot be explained to one who trusts in a theology or a feeling they have.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't believe in OSAS but in POTS (there is a difference). 1 John 2:17 with 1 John 3:6 is what I believe concerning this in a nutshell. I believe that if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away: behold, all things are become new! (2 Corinthians 5:17). The grace of God is not a license for sinning; it is the reason why I don't sin (Romans 6:14, Titus 2:11-14). Knowing that I am forgiven of past, present, and future sin (Romans 4:6-8, Hebrews 9:12, John 5:24) is a primary reason why I have victory over sin, as one who desires not to sin because I love the Lord. Fear doesn't have to be a motivation when love is all-encompassing (1 John 4:18). If someone murders or rapes they don't have eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

Do those around you all testify that you are completely loving and now don’t sin? That is actually the only test that matters. The Bible says we will be judged for the deeds done in the body not the faith we had that our deeds were good. No one is judged by their faith. If The new creature behaves such that no one sees any difference, they are not new, no matter what they claim. So if you are selfish or thoughtless towards your wife at times, do you still have eternal life abiding in you? What if a murderer was a believer? You think all future sins are forgiven. Do you see the problem?

Now I think well of you and have never thought that you want a license to sin. But can you see if one gets tempted this theology helps them?

Okay; but it is not the truth that I necessarily am destined to backslide just like everybody else; neither that everybody else has to backslide. It is possible for someone to live a consistent Christian walk from the beginning of one's faith to the end of their stay on the planet.

No one says anyone is destined to backslide same as no one is destined to live a consistent walk. No one is predestined. We can all walk away and be lost.

Try to have a sense of humour; I meant that as a funny.

Dont blame the audience if wasn’t close to being funny. And you in fact claim by faith that your behavior bears the mark of the HS and don’t want to ask those who actually see you if it does. Your wife’s statement was only recently were you unselfish. So this is very new. That does not prove your point that you don’t sin anymore.

There is no reason to believe that Moses was writing one day and then realized the scripture had to say that he was the meekest man on earth, so he called on a friend at that moment and asked him to write it.

No one said the above. I assure you that Moses did not rise from the dead and write about his own burial.

I believe that the Pentateuch was written by Moses without interruption for the most part; and that only after he died was it necessary for someone else to co-author the books.

Does it comfort you when you praise your own character to think Moses did? Is this a motive? I can’t see why it matters otherwise.

I once spoke to a woman of faith and said to her based on Lamentations 3:37-38 that faith teaching was incorrect, that we do not create realities by our words. She told me very gingerly that as believers we are filled with the Spirit of God and therefore He is able to speak through us.

I assure you that He does not speak all the time through every believer. Some are very proud and selfish at times. Think of Peter who was rebuked by both Jesus and Paul for his behaviour. And few of us even come close to his level of gifts and power of the Holy SPirit. Does not mean every utterance has the power of God behind it.

I find this whole thing really lacking any love for God or man, just a love of power and being able to tell the guy in the mirror how perfect/good/sinless he/she is. Not saying that’s you, btw.

And also that in Romans 4:17 He is able to call those things which be not as though they are; and that in doing so He creates a new reality.

Him yes. You no.

So if a barren tree said in the power of the Spirit (the Spirit of God speaking through him), "by faith I have apples," it is a reality that may not be in that moment; but because God is calling those things which are not as though they are, it is a reality that shall be, and even is in that moment in the sense that it is as good as done; just like in Romans 8:30 when it says that whom God justified, He also glorified (past tense) when glorification is yet future for many of us who have been justified.

God? yes. You? no. You are not Him. This is more a love of power than a love of God, isn’t it? I mean we can make many bold statements if He so directs. But we can’t decide to stand in front of the bank and speak 1000s into our account.

It is as good as done; which is indicated by setting it forth in past tense as though it is already done, even though it has not happened yet it is past tense because it has been absolutely accomplished by the words of Jesus on the Cross, Te Telestai (It is finshed)

Jesus’ task was finished. Doesn’t mean every task we can think of was finished. Paul also said he was finished too.

The promise that we are forgiven of future sins applies only to those who are born again;

It applies to no one at all. Sins repented of can be forgiven.

as I have said, have a disposition not to sin because of the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

You seem to claim you do. Please ask
those who work with you and don’t particularly like you if that is what you actually do.

It is both. Freed from it in the sense that there is no condemnation: (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:18, Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19)...Under it in the sense that my behaviour is affected by it: (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7, 1 Corinthians 9:21).

. None of those scriptures promise no judgement for the one who refuses to submit to the law of loving God and man. We are under the law to love GOd and man and that has not changed. And that whether we feel like it or not at the moment.

There is no condemnation from the law for me as one who is forgiven through faith in the shed blood of Christ (try Romans 4:6-8, Romans 8:1); and because of that the wet paint principle (Romans 7:7-13) no longer has power over me. But the righteousness of the law governs me from the inside because the love of God is shed abroad in my heart through the power of the Holy Ghost (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5, Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8-10).

I haven’t noticed any love of God, frankly speaking. What I notice is a love of how this doctrine makes you feel. There is a love of being to tell the self that it is now good. There is a love of telling the self it is sinless. There is a love of what God gave to the self.

What I would say though is that apart from God all of us are sinners.

When one matures, one becomes a true son or daughter of God.

And I am certainly not advocating that we as Christians be disobedient.

If one wants to, your theology comforts them IN their sin. They can do wrong to others and be at peace knowing it’s all forgiven already. This ia allowing any kind of sin for any believer as it is already forgiven. I can see why this makes a person happy. Does not make those who live and work with them happy though. Again I don’t think you want to do this.

I am saying that apart from Him we can do nothing.

So time to move on from forgiveness of sin to doing something.

And I do agree that our love ought to be a choice: even when we don't feel like obeying, we should obey. On the train of our walk with Christ, the engine is fact, which pulls along faith; and faith pulls along feeling (which is the caboose). If we base our faith on our feelings we are in trouble; and faith will not stand if it is not placed in factual information. Nevertheless, when we place our faith in fact, feelings are sure to follow; and as for obedience, it is best placed between faith and feelings. So that the train looks like this: FEELINGS ----> OBEDIENCE ----> FAITH ----> FACT : with the train moving in the direction of the arrows.

Bet you did not think that one up. The problem is it focuses, again, on the self. There is no love of God in this at all.

So we also ought not to put our faith in our own obedience.

. No one who lives to obey God does.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @Dorothy Mae,

I have to go and run some errands today and will be back to answer your posts in due time, Lord willing (if He doesn't return before then).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi @Dorothy Mae,

I have to go and run some errands today and will be back to answer your posts in due time, Lord willing (if He doesn't return before then).

Thanks!!