Is this "bigoted" ... or?

[Ana the Ist]

Yes it is a matter of opinion. I don't think your a male at all. The way you look, dress, talk to others, touch your hair....you look like all the women I know. You don't even have hair on your back like all the men I know. Or a beard.

So given this.....do you know you are a man anyway? Even though we all say not?

I'm not sure if this was meant to be serious or sarcastic or what your point is.

Are those real questions?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes it is a matter of opinion. I don't think your a male at all. The way you look, dress, talk to others, touch your hair....you look like all the women I know. You don't even have hair on your back like all the men I know. Or a beard.

So given this.....do you know you are a man anyway? Even though we all say not?

I'll put it to you this way Sky....gender can be opinion or fact, but it cannot be both. If it's fact, fine...but that fact has to be reflected in something objective and independent of any subjective opinion.

If it's opinion, fine, but opinions aren't facts....so they cannot be factually "incorrect". I may feel like a housecat, but I've no right to be upset if everyone else thinks I'm a regular human male.

So which way do you want to go with this?

 

[DZoolander]

Gay men aren't generally attracted to trans women. Aside from possibly having a penis (assuming they have not undergone genital surgery), they aren't what gay men are looking for. Usually gay men are attracted to masculinity.

Are those types of people attracted to trans women bisexual? Not necessarily. There are men that would consider a trans woman a potential sexual partner that do not find other men attractive.

I'm not saying that for gay men the mere fact that you have a penis makes you an acceptable candidate. What I'm saying is that for the bulk of the gay dudes I know, having a vagina is a disqualifying trait.

There is a difference.

As a straight guy, my partner being biologically female is a requirement. But that doesn't mean that every single person walking around biologically female is a suitable candidate for a variety of reasons.

On the same token, as a straight male someone having a penis is an immediately disqualifying trait.

Most of the time, when people think about sexual orientation, it's not JUST what you're into that matters. Equally important is what you're NOT into. "Straight", I think for most people, means "I'm not interested in anyone equipped as I'm equipped" just as much as it means "I'm interested in someone with the other kind of equipment." Same thing goes for gay people. But if you're bisexual - there ya go - you'll accept both.

So yeah. Like I said before - I think some further clarity in the language of these issues needs to be sorted out. Because - a "trans woman" if she's still in possession of her penis - is still a man when it comes to sexual orientation discussions. And that is a gay relationship. Maybe the appropriate term would be hetereogenderal for what you're talking about...lol

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm not saying that for gay men the mere fact that you have a penis makes you an acceptable candidate. What I'm saying is that for the bulk of the gay dudes I know, having a vagina is a disqualifying trait.

There is a difference.

As a straight guy, my partner being biologically female is a requirement. But that doesn't mean that every single person walking around biologically female is a suitable candidate for a variety of reasons.

On the same token, as a straight male someone having a penis is an immediately disqualifying trait.

Most of the time, when people think about sexual orientation, it's not JUST what you're into that matters. Equally important is what you're NOT into. "Straight", I think for most people, means "I'm not interested in anyone equipped as I'm equipped" just as much as it means "I'm interested in someone with the other kind of equipment." Same thing goes for gay people. But if you're bisexual - there ya go - you'll accept both.

So yeah. Like I said before - I think some further clarity in the language of these issues needs to be sorted out. Because - a "trans woman" if she's still in possession of her penis - is still a man when it comes to sexual orientation discussions. And that is a gay relationship. Maybe the appropriate term would be hetereogenderal for what you're talking about...lol

When the LGBTQ community started arguing that "genitalia" had nothing to do with attraction and if you thought it did....you were suddenly a bigot....it felt a bit more obvious that a lot of what they were pushing was more for their benefit than it was about facts.

 

[JIMINZ]

I'll put it to you this way Sky....gender can be opinion or fact, but it cannot be both. If it's fact, fine...but that fact has to be reflected in something objective and independent of any subjective opinion.

If it's opinion, fine, but opinions aren't facts....so they cannot be factually "incorrect". I may feel like a housecat, but I've no right to be upset if everyone else thinks I'm a regular human male.

So which way do you want to go with this?

.
Every house cat I ever had was neutered, do you want to go for that?

 

[Ana the Ist]

.
Every house cat I ever had was neutered, do you want to go for that?

Negative...keep your hands to yourself please.

And try not to get upset when I drop a deuce in your kid's sandbox.

 

[JIMINZ]

When the LGBTQ community started arguing that "genitalia" had nothing to do with attraction and if you thought it did....you were suddenly a bigot....it felt a bit more obvious that a lot of what they were pushing was more for their benefit than it was about facts.

.
Then if it wasn't about the genitalia, the issue is a non issue, and there aren't any Homosexuals.

It's the fact, it is only about the genitalia that causes one to be a Homosexual.

 

[JIMINZ]

Negative...keep your hands to yourself please.

And try not to get upset when I drop a deuce in your kid's sandbox.

.
Please cover it up.

 

[Ana the Ist]

.
Then if it wasn't about the genitalia, the issue is a non issue, and there aren't any Homosexuals.

It's the fact, it is only about the genitalia that causes one to be a Homosexual.

Not sure I follow your logic here....but whatever floats your boat.

Edit- Is the "it" you're talking about here "sexual desire/attraction"?

 

[Ana the Ist]

.
Please cover it up.

Always.

 

[JIMINZ]

Always.

.Good kitty.

 

[Tom 1]

So tonight I'm perusing over my facebook feed, and I see this post from an old friend of mine talking about how she stopped being friends with someone who called a kid she knew "evil" because they were "non-binary".

In case you're unfamiliar with the term, nonbinary is part of the whole trans thing that's been gaining momentum over the past couple of years. Basically it means that you don't really "identify" as either a boy or a girl. You're your own thing.

Now, I think it's nonsense to call a kid who's questioning things and/or going through whatever phase there may be "evil".

So then some other lady pops in and says "I know 4 kids who are trans"...which is kind of where my thought here is going to start.

In a lot of ways, the whole trans thing gives me problems in a way that most other issues don't...and for a variety of reasons.

1. It seems to be a growing thing. I'm a software developer and one of my jobs is developing mobile apps. Part of my job is to keep abreast of new social media apps - so every now and then I have to see what's popular/download it/evaluate what's good about it/bad about it/etc.
   
   One of the things about social apps is that you see what a lot of people are talking about on the feeds. When you see the LGBT feeds - it seems that there really aren't any more LGB people...lol It's ALLLLLLL T for the most part. It's like every other post is "I'm soooo confused about my gender identity and sexuality". And it's a LOT of those posts.
   
   Then you get some lady saying that she knows 4 kids that are trans? How many kids do you know - where you can end up with 4 being trans? lol Are you a teacher? Because if you're just some lady running around out there with your own kids and getting a sample group from random kids they may know - that's gotta be a pretty high percent. At least more than I would think would be a naturally occurring thing. I've got 2 kids of my own - and I think I at best can identify 10 other kids. Only maybe 3 of which I know their names. lol
   
   But you know 4 kids that are trans?
2. They're a pernicious group - in a way that others aren't. For example, gay people give me no problems. I can understand gay people. I love my wife, she's a woman. Bob over there loves Steve, and he's a man. So far as I can tell - it's the same feeling - applied in a different direction. So I can kinda "get" gay people.
   
   And gay people have never asked for a thing from me or asked me to change how I look at things. You're probably thinking "but gay marriage!!!" - but I don't agree. I've got no problems with gay people walking into a secular courthouse and getting whatever label they want applied to them to be granted the same legal rights straight people have. That gives me no issues - and I do not think that's asking a thing of me.
   
   Trans people aren't the same. In their ideal world - they would have me change how I look at what defines a man and a woman to accommodate them. In other words - I (if I were single) should be open to dating a biological man who "identifies" as a woman...and if I've got problems with the penis being there - then I'm "transphobic". Because - "trans women are real women". So they do want/expect things from others - in a way that's pretty big and foundational - that other groups don't ask.
3. For the life of me - I don't understand what the heck they're talking about. Don't get me wrong. I understand the terminology, the language they use, the arguments they make, etc. But it doesn't make sense to me. Going back to the "understanding gays" part I said above - I'm not gay - but I can envision the gay experience. Meaning - I can understand the feeling of love - and envision it applied just in a different direction.
   
   I DON'T understand the gender stuff - in the slightest.
   
   What do you mean you "feel like a man" or "feel like woman"? The only thing that *I* understand is what it feels like to be me. I happen to be a man. But - I couldn't tell you with any degree of certainty if you were to throw my consciousness into RDKirk's experience - that there would be any similarity. Or that if you were to throw my consciousness into MkGal's or TropicalWild's experience - that I would go "Oh wow - this is so much different". Or that RDKirk's way of experiencing the world on a qualitative level (feeling) would be more similar to mine than that of MkGal's or TropicalWild's.
   
   I don't know that there's some distinctive difference between the two sexes where one feels one way and the other feels another. Nobody does. My experience is limited to one thing - myself. So is everyone else's. So the idea that people think they can compare what it feels like to be "this" or "that" doesn't make any sense to me.
   
   What is it (as a biological girl who identifies as a man) exactly that you identify with that's male? Is it how men are culturally expected to behave relative to how women are culturally expected to behave? Is it the clothing? Is it some core "feeling" you think is "male" vs. "female"? I don't get it - and nobody if asked can give a decent answer to that. Most of the time it's some vague stuff like "Well, I remember wondering what it might be like to be a little girl picking flowers as a child" or something like that. Or "I always preferred to play with boys instead of other little girls".

So what exactly then would be the difference between what we used to call being a "tomboy" vs. "nonbinary"? Has society ever been "binary" truly? I'm nearly 50. There were plenty of tomboy girls running around when I was a kid. I guess the difference is that the tomboy girl never really thought "I'm a boy". They'd run, play, be involved in sports, climb trees, do all of the "boy" things, but they still accepted they were a girl.

Heck - my aunt was a tomboy - and she was born in 1916. I have pictures of her running around in torn up pants, t-shirts, etc...much to my grandparent's chagrin. But it was perfectly normal then as well. Literature is full of them - heck - Mark Twain wrote about Hellfire Hotchkiss.

It seems to me that at least on the "girl" side - there's always been an acceptance of bending the gender-rules. Boys - ehhhh - not as much...lol But - that's a different topic altogether.

So it seems to me that a lot of these people are taking what was always within the normal realm - and pretty much blowing it into odd new proportions...and once again...it does pose me problems...because the consequences are different.

I've always thought that I'd like to have a tomboy as a daughter. But ya know, I don't want a tomboy who then comes to me and says "Because I like to climb trees, I'm actually a boy, nature did me wrong, so how about some hormone therapy, dad?" Or... "Because I like to wear pants and don't like to wear dresses, I think you should allow me to be prescribed some puberty blockers."

...and that does seem to be the direction that a lot of this is stuff is headed.

I dunno - what do you think?

I think there always will be and probably always have been some kids for whom this will just happen, for reasons I don’t think anyone understands some kids will have some sense that they are not really the person everyone sees them as, biologically. A kid like that is going to have some challenges figuring that out, and will need a lot of support, but for most it does pass in later adolescence. Labelling kids like that as ‘evil’ is insane. What is disturbing tho is the ‘well-meaning’ propaganda - in a misguided effort to help the few kids who have these issues feel normal, rather than coming to terms with whatever the underlying issues are, a lot of pseudoscience and general nonsense is used to push the idea on kids that questioning your gender is an entirely normal, even universal, part of the process of growing up. Kids tend to believe what adults tell them, and so will tend to sincerely engage in this process as if it is a real ‘thing’. Over time it becomes more and more rooted in culture, throw in peer pressure and so on and you have a socially generated problem everyone is trying to pretend is actually great and not a problem at all, a la emporer’s new clothes. I suppose it’s a kind of zeal without knowledge issue - people wanting to do something to relieve the psychological pain of a minority of kids try, rather than engaging in the difficult process of supporting them to work their way through it, to pretend it’s societies fault, that they only feel bad because society doesn’t accept their issues as ‘normal’ etc. Before going into farming I worked in psychology services in the UK and I used to come across this a lot, the divide between those services that engage with people to help them find solutions and those that support people to avoid dealing with anything and to go deeper into their problems instead, which is easier but ultimately destructive, e.g there is a charity set up in the UK to help older men who have suddenly ‘realised’ they are gay to abandon their families and live a gay lifestyle. This is where people begin to feel that there is something ‘evil’ going on, maybe a better or more specific word would be irresponsible. It’s an approach to supporting people that has as an underlying assumption that people shouldn’t have to deal with difficult and painful things, but should be helped to avoid dealing with them instead.

 

[RDKirk]

Before going into farming I worked in psychology services in the UK and I used to come across this a lot, the divide between those services that engage with people to help them find solutions and those that support people to avoid dealing with anything and to go deeper into their problems instead, which is easier but ultimately destructive, e.g there is a charity set up in the UK to help older men who have suddenly ‘realised’ they are gay to abandon their families and live a gay lifestyle. This is where people begin to feel that there is something ‘evil’ going on, maybe a better or more specific word would be irresponsible. It’s an approach to supporting people that has as an underlying assumption that people shouldn’t have to deal with difficult and painful things, but should be helped to avoid dealing with them instead.

Off-topic, but to show that I get what you mean is the inability to talk about obesity in the black American community, despite the fact that high blood pressure and diabetes are set to become such major epidemics in the next 20 years that some people are belatedly going to be screaming, "Genocide!"

 

[snoochface]

To the person who said most gay men are attracted to masculinity and not to genitalia specifically, if that is the case, then why do so many gay men behave and groom themselves in an effeminate way? Wouldn't they be making themselves less attractive to the "most gay men" who are attracted to masculinity?

 

[RDKirk]

To the person who said most gay men are attracted to masculinity and not to genitalia specifically, if that is the case, then why do so many gay men behave and groom themselves in an effeminate way? Wouldn't they be making themselves less attractive to the "most gay men" who are attracted to masculinity?

I probably don't agree with what you mean by "groom themselves in an effeminate way."

You're probably talking about the way I groom, and I'm not in the least gay.

 

[DZoolander]

I’d imagine that as with any group there’s a wide variety of tastes within the gay male community. The one common trait is - they have a dongle

 

[Tom 1]

I’d imagine that as with any group there’s a wide variety of tastes within the gay male community. The one common trait is - they have a dongle

They all carry USB flash drives? Is that a gay thing?

 

[DZoolander]

Because that’s what makes them...gay men

 

[RDKirk]

They all carry USB flash drives? Is that a gay thing?

"USB flash drives?"

Is that the new term now?

It's so hard to keep up with today's slang!

 

[Tom 1]

Because that’s what makes them...gay men

Maybe it’s a UK only joke. There a dongle is a flash drive or USB WiFi antenna