Predestination

[John Bowen]

No God's law of free will reigns supreme .As demonstrated by Jesus hanging on the cross he had to give up the ghost the last thing separating him from Heaven then he was free to ascend.

 

[bcbsr]

In Calvinism, they are not born saved, it is just they are elected to be saved. faith is still a requirement, as is being born of God.

No, under Calvinism people are born elect to eternal life. That is their fate. And as such they are saved from birth. When people are born elect is there the possibility that they will go to hell? No. As such they are saved from birth.

Under Calvinism is faith a requirement for them to be elect to eternal life? No. Their election to eternal life occurs prior to them being born. Faith, regeneration, sanctification, glorification, these are things that occur later in the life of the elect, but are not preconditions under Calvinism to be elect to eternal life.

 

[sdowney717]

No, under Calvinism people are born elect to eternal life. That is their fate. And as such they are saved from birth. When people are born elect is there the possibility that they will go to hell? No. As such they are saved from birth.

Under Calvinism is faith a requirement for them to be elect to eternal life? No. Their election to eternal life occurs prior to them being born. Faith, regeneration, sanctification, glorification, these are things that occur later in the life of the elect, but are not preconditions under Calvinism to be elect to eternal life.

Believe whatever you wish to about Calvinism.
You understanding is God plays a minor role in who is actually saved, or does not have a clue who will believe.

God knows beforehand, because He has determined beforehand who will believe and who will disbelieve the gospel. God has determined all their days before their birth. By not making someone born of God by His love and mercy, people will not believe in Christ.

Psalm 139
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them.


About Martin Luther,
Luther's response was his The Bondage of the Will, in which he argues against Erasmus' notion that the will of man must cooperate with the will of God in the reception of the gospel. As the title suggests, Luther responded that the will of man is bound in sin, and therefore __completely unable to cooperate__ with God. Therefore, the sovereign grace of God must be __the sole determining factor__ in the salvation of men.

Furthermore, it would seem as though Luther held his "overstated" double predestinarian views not simply at the time of, or after, the publication of The Bondage of the Will, but years prior as well. In his Commentary on Romans, written around 1515, he wrote,

"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned.[30]

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/double_luther.html

 

[bcbsr]

Believe whatever you wish to about Calvinism.
You understanding is God plays a minor role in who is actually saved, or does not have a clue who will believe.

Wrong about that. God plays a major (but not an exclusive) role as to who is actually saved, and God foreknows who will believe. Consequently you bear me false witness on both these points as to what you claim I believe. I based my believes upon the Bible, and not upon Martin Luther or any other post-Biblical theologian.

 

[sdowney717]

Wrong about that. God plays a major (but not an exclusive) role as to who is actually saved, and God foreknows who will believe. Consequently you bear me false witness on both these points as to what you claim I believe. I based my believes upon the Bible, and not upon Martin Luther or any other post-Biblical theologian.

When you say major but not exclusive role, your not believing what Christ said in John 6.

'All that the Father gives ME will come to ME'

'Will come' means what it says, the Father must give you or grant you to believe in Christ or you will not believe in Christ. Will come means they have not yet come to Christ, only after being granted will they come to Christ. And it is not just the idea God makes it possible for them to come since Christ says 'will come to Me'.

And in other verses, Jesus says all those the Father has given Me.
How does your philosophy explain that away?

 

[Loren T.]

When you say major but not exclusive role, your not believing what Christ said in John 6.

'All that the Father gives ME will come to ME'

'Will come' means what it says, the Father must give you or grant you to believe in Christ or you will not believe in Christ. Will come means they have not yet come to Christ, only after being granted will they come to Christ. And it is not just the idea God makes it possible for them to come since Christ says 'will come to Me'.

What you do here is take one verse and ignore all the verses proceeding. Jesus has already stated the condition for coming to him is believing.

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

The father does not give him anyone who does not first believe.

As far as the drawing, yes, no one comes unless drawn by the Spirit, but if we actually read the whole Bible, we find that the Spirit draws all who are willing. This drawing is not irresistible, as evidenced by many people we have all known who have been under strong conviction and refused to repent.

 

[bcbsr]

When you say major but not exclusive role, your not believing what Christ said in John 6.

'All that the Father gives ME will come to ME'

'Will come' means what it says, the Father must give you or grant you to believe in Christ or you will not believe in Christ. Will come means they have not yet come to Christ, only after being granted will they come to Christ. And it is not just the idea God makes it possible for them to come since Christ says 'will come to Me'.

And in other verses, Jesus says all those the Father has given Me.
How does your philosophy explain that away?

Wrong again. The context says, "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." John 6:45 Learning involves cooperation and thus affirms synergism contrary to Calvinism.

 

[sdowney717]

Wrong again. The context says, "Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." John 6:45 Learning involves cooperation and thus affirms synergism contrary to Calvinism.

This gets back to when a man is born again.
Man is born again before being taught by the Holy Spirit, all that are taught come to Christ, since they are of God after being born, they have ears to hear.

And your using your interpretation of a verse to contradict the other, bad, very bad thing to do.

 

[bcbsr]

This gets back to when a man is born again.
Man is born again before being taught by the Holy Spirit, all that are taught come to Christ, since they are of God after being born, they have ears to hear.

And your using your interpretation of a verse to contradict the other, bad, very bad thing to do.

Wrong again!

A person is born of God AFTER he comes to faith.

John 1:12b "to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—".

When were they given the right to become children of God? Was it before they believed or after? What does it say?

Ga 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,"

So how could a person be born of God before believing? A person is born of God through faith - just as John 1:12 indicated.

1John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Doesn't that sound like it's talking about unbelievers, as the Calvinists would have it?

 

[sdowney717]

Wrong again!

A person is born of God AFTER he comes to faith.

John 1:12b "to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—".

When were they given the right to become children of God? Was it before they believed or after? What does it say?

Ga 3:26 "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,"

So how could a person be born of God before believing? A person is born of God through faith - just as John 1:12 indicated.

1John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Doesn't that sound like it's talking about unbelievers, as the Calvinists would have it?

Your deflecting from my prior post, the comments you made and about Jesus talking about learning from God, while Jesus also saying, 'all that the Father gives Me will come to Me.'

Why is that? Because you do not have an answer except if you severely twist the scripture.

Being born of God is not salvation just yet, we are saved after we believe, we are then sealed by the Holy Spirit. Your problem is your mindset equates born of God as the final end product, when it is just the first step in the relationship.
And all born of God persons, will come to Christ eventually, you never stop being born of God, so those verses you posted do not invalidate being born of God before our confessing Christ.

 

[bcbsr]

Your deflecting from my prior post, the comments you made and about Jesus talking about learning from God, while Jesus also saying, 'all that the Father gives Me will come to Me.'

Why is that? Because you do not have an answer except if you severely twist the scripture.

Wrong again. I answered your take on John 6. You just misconstrued it.

As for "deflecting", you're wrong there to. In your prior post you stated, "Man is born again before being taught by the Holy Spirit" That was your proposition to support you interpretation. I disproved your hypothesis with scripture. You call that "deflecting".

 

[sdowney717]

Wrong again. I answered your take on John 6. You just misconstrued it.

As for "deflecting", you're wrong there to. In your prior post you stated, "Man is born again before being taught by the Holy Spirit" That was your proposition to support you interpretation. I disproved your hypothesis with scripture. You call that "deflecting".

Actually your the one doing the antagonism, your the one who attacked first, I just responded, you hate calvinism, which is scriptural truth.

And no, you did not in John 6 explain that verse.
Here they are, perhaps you should explain them, how they fit your religious views.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

 

[bcbsr]

Actually your the one doing the antagonism, your the one who attacked first, I just responded, you hate calvinism, which is scriptural truth.

And no, you did not in John 6 explain that verse.
Here they are, perhaps you should explain them, how they fit your religious views.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Already explained it to you, but you didn't listen.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Translation: I don't like your answer, so I'm going to make fun of you.

Translation ...God says we are elected and graced before the world was....Loren says...we become elected when we believe.....

I will go with what God says.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Screaming doesn't make you any more right. Kinda reminds me of the calvinist debating Flowers screaming "God causes men to commit adultery!" Ok, then, everything is predestined. Nothing we do matters. Got it. Might as well sit on the couch and eat ho hos for the rest of your life.

If you are listening to Leighton Flowers you will remain confused and resisting the truth.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Why? If your theology is correct, God will irresistibly save whoever he wants and damn whoever he wants. Giving them the gospel is irrelevant if this is true.

Can you demonstrate any of your claims in scripture? You make statements with no support, You do not offer the position as people hold to it...
Know ing about the confession of faith and refuting any of it is two different things, you ,Leighton Flowers, cannot do it.
i know this because we used to interact on a regular basis on Baptistboard as he went under the name Skandelon...

he was a nice guy.... likable but sadly mistaken because of carnal philosophy. James White crushed him ,in the Romans 9 one sided debate even after giving him every opportunity to answer and offer exegesis...which he failed totally.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In Calvinism, they are not born saved, it is just they are elected to be saved. faith is still a requirement, as is being born of God. The scriptures clearly says, all that the Father gives to Christ will come to Christ. Which means those not given, will not come to Christ and be saved.
God is the chooser, not the will of the man. God does not choose everyone or everyone would come to Christ and be saved.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

God does not personally show mercy to everyone to be granted to come to Christ.

People who do not believe in Christ, God has not granted them to come to Christ. I speak in absolute terms here, meaning they could be granted later, but unless God grants them to come to Christ, they will not believe. Jesus is VERY CLEAR, only by severe scripture twisting can these truths be denied.

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

The SPIRIT gives life, not the flesh, God is Spirit, He determines who is given life, not the man. As Romans 9 so says, not the will of the flesh, the man. We are born of God according to the will of God and also that is why a man is born again prior to faith or being born again would be determined by the will of the man, the flesh.

The book of life was written before creation. So everyone who is victorious are basically saved since creation. God foresaw who would be victorious and who would not. This doesn’t mean that He chose who is saved and who will burn. He simply foresaw the choices we would make.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Where? What attacks? Quote it.

I might be confused, but that response was to a poster who keeps wrongly using the term irresitiable grace, as if men do not resist the gospel before they are saved by God.
most every person resists God and His word, but those effectually called ...The I ,in tulip means they will not ...ULTIMATELY RESIST

Loren, if you want to learn many here would help you...playing coy, then attacking gets a different reaction.
Ask your best questions...sincerely...ask using scripture.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

No God's law of free will reigns supreme .As demonstrated by Jesus hanging on the cross he had to give up the ghost the last thing separating him from Heaven then he was free to ascend.

There is no free will period. That is a false idol.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

The book of life was written before creation. So everyone who is victorious are basically saved since creation. God foresaw who would be victorious and who would not. This doesn’t mean that He chose who is saved and who will burn. He simply foresaw the choices we would make.

No...God is not a mere spectator. He has a plan and purpose and foreknows whom he intends to save out of fallen mankind.
he knows them as persons...he elects them, then He saves them.