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Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

mkgal1

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The Papacy's abuse of children by priests reveals the other side of the coin.

.
That was the *former* papacy....and is was a wrong (child sexual abuse) that has harmed many people (and goes completely against what I said about the need for us, as Christians, to be on the side of protecting ALL from the harm of others). I'm not understanding your reason for bringing this up? That was definitely a step in the WRONG direction.

It's also off topic - this has nothing to do with "rapture".
 
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Dan the deacon

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Yet not one scripture to support pre-trib rapture.....
This is true but there are none to dispute it either. I hold fast to no theory concerning this. Christ will return as a thief in the night. That I believe.
If one is going to hold to one of these theories pre tribe sounds the nicest but I'll wait and see.
 
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Dave L

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This is true but there are none to dispute it either. I hold fast to no theory concerning this. Christ will return as a thief in the night. That I believe.
If one is going to hold to one of these theories pre tribe sounds the nicest but I'll wait and see.
The seven year tribulation rests on a non-existent gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week. If you can find a gap, then the pre-trib rapture makes sense. But without a gap, there is no seven year tribulation or pre-trib rapture. No gap = the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus in the first century...proven by history.
 
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keras

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The seven year tribulation rests on a non-existent gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th week. If you can find a gap, then the pre-trib rapture makes sense. But without a gap, there is no seven year tribulation or pre-trib rapture. No gap = the prophecy was fulfilled by Jesus in the first century...proven by history.
DaveL, You go on about 'no gap', but the onus is actually on you to prove that the 70th 'week' happened in the first century.
It's plain to most everyone that the 69th "week' ended with Christ's Crucifixion. What happened during the seven years after that, in no way fits what is prophesied for the last seven years before Jesus Returns.
The truth is; we are living in the 'gap' now. It will last for 2000 years, as Jesus prophesied, Luke 31:32 and Hosea 6:2.

Why object to a gap anyway? You make it seem like you're scared of having to face anything difficult!
 
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Dave L

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DaveL, You go on about 'no gap', but the onus is actually on you to prove that the 70th 'week' happened in the first century.
It's plain to most everyone that the 69th "week' ended with Christ's Crucifixion. What happened during the seven years after that, in no way fits what is prophesied for the last seven years before Jesus Returns.
The truth is; we are living in the 'gap' now. It will last for 2000 years, as Jesus prophesied, Luke 31:32 and Hosea 6:2.

Why object to a gap anyway? You make it seem like you're scared of having to face anything difficult!
Jesus did all Gabriel said he would do in the first century. = zero gap.
 
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jgr

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DaveL, You go on about 'no gap', but the onus is actually on you to prove that the 70th 'week' happened in the first century.
It's plain to most everyone that the 69th "week' ended with Christ's Crucifixion. What happened during the seven years after that, in no way fits what is prophesied for the last seven years before Jesus Returns.
The truth is; we are living in the 'gap' now. It will last for 2000 years, as Jesus prophesied, Luke 31:32 and Hosea 6:2.

Why object to a gap anyway? You make it seem like you're scared of having to face anything difficult!
The prophecy's chronology places the crucifixion within the contiguous 70th week, not at the end of the 69th.

The clear majority of the true NT Christian Church for over 1800 years believed that Christ fulfilled the 70th week.
 
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mkgal1

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An explanation of Daniel's 70 weeks -where Christ has fulfilled the 70th week already:


Quoting Ralph Woodrow From "Great Prophecies of the Bible"---------> "Let us now notice —step by step—all of the basic parts of the 70 weeks prophecy and how these things were fulfilled.

I. JERUSALEM WAS TO BE RESTORED. We have already seen the scriptures that explain this.

2. THE STREET AND WALL WERE TO BE REBUILT IN TROUBLOUS TIMES. We have seen in the book of Ezra some of the troubles that confronted the people in those years of rebuilding.

3. THE MOST HOLY WAS TO BE ANOINTED. We believe this reference is to Jesus Christ. Gabriel announced to Mary: "The HOLY thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Lk. 1:35). Peter referred to him as "the HOLY ONE" (Acts 3:14). John referred to him as "the HOLY ONE" (1 John 2:20). Even demons had to recognize him as "The HOLY ONE of God" (Mk. 1:24).

David spoke concerning Christ: neither wilt thou suffer thine HOLY ONE to see corruption" (Acts 2:27). In Revelation 3:7 he is called "HOLY" and the heavenly creatures rest not from saying: "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY" before this one "which was, and is, and is to come" (Rev. 4:8).

From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah was to be 483 years. When this time was fulfilled, those who knew this prophecy, were expecting the appearance of the Messiah, that is, the Christ. (Christ is the Greek form of the Hebrew word Messiah.) Thus when John came baptizing, "the people were in EXPECTATION, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ or not" (Lk. 3:15). John plainly told them that he was not the Christ —he was only the forerunner. When Jesus appeared on the scene, John cried: "Behold the Lamb of God"! The time had now come that Jesus should be "made manifest to Israel" (John 1:29 31). He was then baptized and when he had prayed, "the heaven was opened. And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased" (Lk. 3:21,22).

He had appeared to Israel right on time! Thus Jesus, in evident reference to the time prophecy of Daniel, said: "The TIME is fulfilled" (Mk. 1:15) and as the Messiah, the Christ, the "anointed one", he preached the gospel. When he entered the synagogue of Nazareth, he announced: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he hath ANOINTED me" (Lk. 4:18-22). Acts 4:27 mentioned Jesus as the "holy" one that the Lord "ANOINTED." And Peter mentioned that "God ANOINTED Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost... who went about doing good, healing all who were oppressed of the devil" (Acts 10:38).

Daniel's prophecy revealed that the time period unto the Messiah would be 69 weeks (483 years). This measured to the time when Jesus was baptized and anointed to begin his ministry as the Messiah, the Christ, the "Anointed One.

4. MESSIAH WAS TO BE CUT OFF. The 69 weeks (7 plus 62) were to measure unto Messiah "and AFTER" the 69 weeks "shall Messiah be cut off." Now "AFTER" 69 weeks does not and cannot mean "in" or "during" the 69 weeks! If Messiah was to be cut off AFTER the 69 weeks, there is only one week left in which he could have been "cut off"—the 70th week! —after three and a half years of ministry.

The term "cut off" implies that Messiah would not die a natural death; he would be murdered! So also had Isaiah prophesied using an equivalent word: "He was cut off out of the land of the living" (Isaiah 53:8).

The details about how Messiah was "cut off" are given in the gospels.

5. "TO FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION", or literally, "to finish transgression." As Jesus was dying, he cried: "It is FINISHED." At Calvary, Jesus finished transgression by becoming sin for us. No future sacrifice can ever finish transgression; it was finished at Calvary (Heb. 9:15). "He was wounded for our TRANSGRESSIONS" (Isaiah 53:5).

6. "TO MAKE AN END OF SINS." Here the basic thought is repeated. If we understand the glorious significance of what was accomplished at Calvary, we know that here there was truly an end made of sins.

Jesus, who came "to save his people from their sins", accomplished this when he "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Mt. 1:21; Heb. 9:26). "It is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins... But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever...hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified...And their sins... remember no more" (Heb. 10:4-11). The old system of sacrifices could never make an end of sins, but Christ—by the sacrifice of himself—did make an end of sins, even as the prophecy had said!

John announced him as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world" (John 1:29). "Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3). He "bare our sins in his own body on the tree" (l Peter 2:24) and "hath once suffered for sins" (3:18). "He was manifested to take away our sins" (l John 3:5). This "end of sins" was accomplished at Calvary.

All of this does not mean, of course, that right at this point men quit sinning. This was not the case. But what the scripture does mean is that at Calvary the eternal sacrifice for sin was made, so that any and all—past, present, or future —who will be forgiven of sins will be forgiven because our Lord' s death almost 2,000 years ago made an "end of sins"!"

https://books.google.com/books/about/Great_Prophecies_of_the_Bible.html?id=jCoVAAAACAAJ
 
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keras

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To believe in a gap....one would have to believe that somehow Christ was cut off AFTER the 69th week.....but also BEFORE the 70th. How does that even work?
It works perfectly, exactly as Daniel 9:26 says: After the 62, [+7] weeks, the Annointed Prince will be removed.....
It is quite clear from Revelation and the other prophesies, that much will happen during the last seven years before Jesus Returns. I really cannot see why anyone should deny that the 70th week is still future. We have had the 2000 year gap, as prophesied.
 
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jgr

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It works perfectly, exactly as Daniel 9:26 says: After the 62, [+7] weeks, the Annointed Prince will be removed.....
It is quite clear from Revelation and the other prophesies, that much will happen during the last seven years before Jesus Returns. I really cannot see why anyone should deny that the 70th week is still future. We have had the 2000 year gap, as prophesied.

After 69 comes 70, wherein all prophesied of Christ and Calvary was fulfilled.

No gap.
 
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mkgal1

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I would say the same about the link you provided...

.
The link I provided was in response to what was posted about Jesus' words, "Today you will be with me in paradise".
 
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mkgal1

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It works perfectly, exactly as Daniel 9:26 says: After the 62, [+7] weeks, the Annointed Prince will be removed.....
It is quite clear from Revelation and the other prophesies, that much will happen during the last seven years before Jesus Returns. I really cannot see why anyone should deny that the 70th week is still future. We have had the 2000 year gap, as prophesied.
v 26 of Daniel says,

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off"

That was Christ's unnatural death (the "anointed prince is Christ, the Messiah). After 3 1/2 years of ministry, He was "cut off" in death. Isaiah prophesied using an equivalent word: “He was cut off out of the land of the living” (Isaiah 53:8). His sacrifice ("the lamb of God that takes away the sin of this world") being the perfect sacrifice, caused other sacrifices to cease in God's plan. This happened in the 70th week (after the 69th week).

Maybe something else to consider is this (from Ralph Woodrow):

The perfect sacrifice was Jesus Christ. The old system of repeated sacrifices (types) could only end at Calvary—when Christ became the perfect, eternal, and final sacrifice (See Heb. 9 and 10). In addition to Calvary’s sacrifice, “there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins” (Heb. 10: 18, 26).

For a few more years, the Jews continued their sacrifices, but these were not recognized by God. Such cannot be termed sacrifices in the true scriptural sense of the word, for the death of Christ provided the perfect, and therefore, the final sacrifice for sins forever.

Further proof that this was fulfilled in Christ is seen in the time element, for the prophecy said that sacrifice would cease in the middle of the week—the 70th week. This was when Christ died, for the 69 weeks measured unto Messiah and His death came after a ministry of three and a half years.

That this was the length of our Lord’s ministry may be seen by a study of the gospel according to John in which mention is made of four passovers that occurred during our Lord’s ministry: John 2:13, 5:1 (see Footnote 1), 6:4, 13:1. Eusebius, a Christian writer of the fourth century, pointed these things out: “Now the whole period of our Saviour’s teaching and working of miracles is said to have been three-and-a-half years, which is half a week. John the evangelist, in his Gospel makes this clear to the attentive.” (Footnote 2)

And so, after three and a half years of ministry as the Christ—the anointed one—Jesus was cut off in death, in the middle of the 70th week of seven years. As Augustine said: “Daniel even defined the time when Christ was to come and suffer by the exact date.” (Footnote 3)

Understanding this, we can now see real significance in certain New Testament statements which also speak of a definite established time at which Jesus would die. For example, we read: “They sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come” (John 7:30). In John 2:4, Jesus said, “Mine hour is not yet come.” On another occasion, he said, “My time is not yet come” (John 7:6). Then just prior to his betrayal and death, he said, “My time is at hand” (Mt. 26:18), and finally, ‘”the hour is come” (John 17:1; Mt. 26:45).

These and other verses clearly show that there was a definite time in the plan of God when Jesus would die. He came to fulfill the scriptures, and there is only one Old Testament scripture which predicted the time of his death—the prophecy which stated that Messiah would be cut off in the midst of the 70th week—at the close of three and a half years of ministry! How perfectly the prophecy was fulfilled in Christ!

But those who say that the confirming of the covenant and causing sacrifices to cease in the midst of the 70th week refers to a future Antichrist, completely destroy this beautiful fulfillment and are at a complete loss to show where in the Old Testament the time of our Lord’s death was predicted.

Footnotes:
1. In this verse the feast is not mentioned by name. However, by taking John 4:35 about the “four months” into consideration, it is possible to determine that this was the feast of the passover (See Boutflower, page 208).

2. Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel, bk. 8, chapter 2.

3. quoted in The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, vol. 1, page 487





 
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mkgal1

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Quoting Larry Wilson:


"1.
God established a calendar based on units of seven at the time of the Exodus.
2.
God required the “promised” land to observe a Sabbath rest every seventh year as a test of faith for Israel.
3.
God’s limit of patience with Israel’s apostasy was reached when 70 Sabbath-year violations were completed. Israel was evicted from the land before another Sabbath violation could occur, and the land caught up on its Sabbath rests without them.
4.
The Jubilee cycle is 49 years in length, and each cycle contains 8 Sabbath years. The Jubilee year is also the first year of the next cycle.​

Now, from the above information we can conclude the following important point: Because of the synchronous and perpetual nature of the Jubilee Calendar, the 70th week of Daniel 9 must be consecutive with the 69th week because the Jubilee Calendar operates without interruption just like the weekly cycle.

In other words, the 70th week cannot be disconnected from the previous 69 weeks as many Christians now believe. Just as a person cannot disconnect 1995 from 1996 the 69th week cannot be disconnected from the 70th week. The truth is, the 70th week took place a long time ago!

There is no Bible authority for inserting a span of time between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel 9

{25} “Daniel, the Persian king, Artaxerxes, in the seventh year of his reign,1 will issue a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. He will issue the decree in accordance with God’s calendar. The decree will be issued in the first days of Spring during the Sunday year of 457 B.C.2 The year 457 B.C. is a Jubilee year and it is God’s joy to freely restore the land and self rule to Israel at that time. Then, seven weeks, a full Jubilee cycle of seven weeks (49 years), will pass.

This cycle will confirm that 457 B.C. is the correct year to date this prophecy because this proves the synchronism of the 70 weeks is aligned with God’s holy calendar. Even though four decrees will be given, only one will be issued in a Sunday year, even a Jubilee year! So, watch for it.

After the seven weeks (a Jubilee cycle) pass, another 62 weeks (434 years) will come to pass before the Holy One of Israel appears. At the end of 69 weeks, when the 70th week begins (A.D. 27), the Anointed One — the Messiah — will begin His ministry." ~ Larry Wilson
 
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keras

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This happened in the 70th week (after the 69th week).
'after' means; 'at the completion of the 69th week', not the beginning of the next week.
There is no incident or significant occurrence noted anywhere to mark the end of the seven years after Jesus died and rose again.
The idea that the 70th week of Daniel was completed in the first century, is sheer preterist nonsense and is refuted by all that is yet to happen during the last seven years before Jesus Returns.
 
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mkgal1

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The explanation by ChristianityBeliefs.org seems clear:

70th-week-made-simple.gif


http://christianitybeliefs.org/end-...ointing-of-christ-in-the-70th-week-of-daniel/
 
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mkgal1

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'after' means; 'at the completion of the 69th week', not the beginning of the next week.
There is no incident or significant occurrence noted anywhere to mark the end of the seven years after Jesus died and rose again.
The idea that the 70th week of Daniel was completed in the first century, is sheer preterist nonsense and is refuted by all that is yet to happen during the last seven years before Jesus Returns.
If I allow my children to only have dessert AFTER dinner....then when can they get dessert? After they have finished their dinner.....or while they are still in the process of eating their dinner? After means after something is done....turn the page....on to the next.

This is honestly new to me...(so my understanding is a bit fuzzy) but, from what I can tell, we are disagreeing over when Jesus was anointed....correct? I believe it was at His baptism .....are you believing it was when He rode in to Jerusalem?

From what I've read....I believe Jesus died in the middle of the 70th week (3 1/2 years into His ministry)....and for the remaining 3 1/2 years the Apostles preached the New Covenant to the Jews until the Jewish leaders stoned Stephen to death, which marked their final rejection of Christ as their Messiah, and it ended the 70th week of Daniel.

This is what was believed for 1700 years. It's a modern teaching that Daniel 9 hasn't been completely fulfilled.
 
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Dave L

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'after' means; 'at the completion of the 69th week', not the beginning of the next week.
There is no incident or significant occurrence noted anywhere to mark the end of the seven years after Jesus died and rose again.
The idea that the 70th week of Daniel was completed in the first century, is sheer preterist nonsense and is refuted by all that is yet to happen during the last seven years before Jesus Returns.
Scripture says nothing of a gap. You add to scripture by saying there is a gap. You also turn Jesus into Antichrist, and rob God of the glory in fulfilling the prophecy on time as stated.
 
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