Anything done with the mindset of trying earn or gain something is works.
Trying to *earn* something is indeed works. Wanting to *gain* something that is freely offered by the work of someone else? That is not a work of the law, of righteousness, or of personal merit. We can desire to receive the gospel of salvation when it is freely offered to us - that doesn't mean we somehow "worked" for our salvation via the law or personal righteousness.
Did the martyrs 'work' for salvation because they continued in faith even through torture because they desired to obtain the resurrection? "Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection." Heb 11:35
There's nothing in scripture that states faith would somehow become a 'work' if we desired the offered salvation in Christ and were aware we would 'gain' an inheritance and salvation from God if we turn in faith.
Paul said it is by grace THROUGH faith that we have been saved,
I agree. But our continuing in faith doesn't make it any less by grace!
It is faith in the work of God in the cross, not faith in our ability to conti ue to have faith, that makes no sense.
It makes no sense because no one has claimed that. Continuing in faith in CHRIST is not the same thing as 'faith in our ability to continue in faith' - whatever that means. One's belief in eternal security, or not, doesn't affect one's salvation - only faith in Christ. One's personal belief or doubt that one can endure in faith doesn't affect one's salvation.
Your placing a condition on salvation, This alone shows it to be works. Grace is not based on conditions, it is based on God alone.
1. God puts 'Faith' as a condition on salvation (and continuing/ongoing faith at that as previously shown through scripture)
2. Scripture says faith is contrasted with works so that no man can boast.
Conclusion: The condition of faith is not in any way a work man could potentially boast in or make Salvation less by grace.
"..
through whom we hold (active/ongoing) access by faith into this grace in which we now stand (active/ongoing.) And we boast in the hope of the glory of God." Rom 5:2
Also, wouldn't 'belief in eternal security' be a clear condition on salvation in your view, and thus something needed in addition to faith in Christ?
For example, I personally have assurance of salvation because I have faith. When I examine myself I can look to my faith and the evidence of the Holy Spirit as confirmation that God gives me salvation, by His grace, on account of that faith. But under your view, it would seem I could have no assurance of salvation. I would have to believe not just in Christ's work as Messiah but *also* the theory of eternal security to be saved. And as I do not believe in eternal security, finding no scriptural evidence for it and much that clearly stands against it, I wouldn't be saved and would have no assurance of salvation under such a view. And what of the people prior to the 4th century who lived before anything resembling a formal theory on eternal security was developed? Were they out of luck?
It also makes no sense. In John 3, Jesus says whoever believes HAS eternal life. I can not have eternal life one minute, then lose it, if I could fvor any reason. That life was never eternal.
The believer 'holds' eternal life. 'Has' is a fine translation, so long as you recognize that it is an 'active and ongoing' having. And while people see the English term 'eternal life' and they often imagine something that can't be lost or end of itself, that isn't what the Greek implies. The Greek just shows 'age-long life' (eternal by context and parallel scripture) granted
to the one that holds it.
For example, imagine Adam when he was in the Garden of Eden. While he was there, he held access to and permission to eat from the Tree of Life and thus held access to eternal life. (Whether he ever did or not is unknown) But he was driven from the garden precisely so he could not (or no longer) eat from the Tree of Life and live forever.
Basically, imagine eternal life as life in Christ with God sustaining you, forever. "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." Jn 17:3
(And at the judgement, of course, a new spiritual body that literally can no longer die.) If we stop knowing Christ (reject faith) do we have eternal life anymore? No. If we disown Christ, can we then hope that God will continue to give us life?
In John 6, Jesus said whoever believes will never hunger never thirst live forever, has eternal life has passed from life to dseath and will be risen on the last day. I can not have these things in possession, then lose them, if they could be lost Jesus lied.
He who believes (active/ongoing) holds (active/ongoing) eternal life. Jn 6:47
https://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/6-47.htm
He (the active believer) has passed from death to life at that first moment of faith - that is when he began to hold eternal life. The 'will be risen on the last day' is the future hope of that believer. Nothing in the text demands that person cannot stop believing, hence stop holding eternal life, and hence return to death.
It's like saying, "The moment I enrolled in 12th grade I passed from junior to senior. I have the hope of graduation and will walk the aisle to get my high school diploma on the last day." (Not a perfect analogy since it's Christ's 'grades' and not ours that count...) That hope is an assurance by his school to him. It doesn't force the student to remain - if the student drops out, he loses that hope of graduation.
In Eph 1. Paul says after I herartd the word, and then believed, I weas sealed byu the spirit, until the day of redemption. The condition of continued believ was never given.
The seal of the Holy Spirit doesn't ensure we stay believing. The Seal of the Holy Spirit guarantees that God will fulfill His promises to His children, *believers.* If a person rejects faith and hence the seal, God is not mandated to give them the promises. (Indeed, His character ensures He must judge them.)
[Question: What is the seal of the Holy Spirit?
See Answer:
http://ebible.com/answers/29251?ori=167400]
[/QUOTE]
In John, he tells us we have eternal life. And our knowledge of this FACT is what is the motivation to continue to believe in his name, [/QUOTE]
No, John states over and over that those who *believe* (active/ongoing) hold eternal life - not that it's a completed thing of the past we could never potentially stop holding. Knowledge of that fact gives us hope in God's assured promises and motivation to continue in faith even during hard times. If we literally thought we already had eternal life and couldn't reject it no matter what, that would be very poor motivation to continue believing if our lives were threatened or we were tortured since to us it 'wouldn't matter.'
If I am not assured eternal life which I have been given, if there is ANY reason it could be lost. How could I continue to have faith in that hope which God, who can not lie? I can;t it would be easy to lose faith. Because I was never assured to begin with.
Why would an assurance based in
faith be difficult?
Is salvation by faith prohibitively difficult? Why would one be more apt to lose faith if they thought that it was necessary to overcome the world in faith? Isn't that backwards?
Wouldn't we be more apt to 'lose faith' when facing trials if we thought it was un-necessary to continue in it?
Once again, John said any who denys jesus is an antichrist, A person denies jesus when they do nto have faith in him. John also said whoever claimed to be part of the church, and now denies christ was never saved to begin with. They did not lose salvation, they never had it.
If you read the text of I John 2 it just shows that their leaving showed they were not part of the church - nothing about whether they once believed or not long ago before their departure. If they'd belonged to the church (e.g. believers) they would have stayed. Believers continue in fellowship with the church. If someone stops believing, then they are no longer part of the church regardless of 'appearance' and attendance.
By leaving, they publicly showed they were not part of the church and not believers. Had they been believers, they would have stayed in fellowship. (This doesn't mean or imply a believer is guaranteed to stay in fellowship and never stop believing. Rather, it shows that when people leave the church it is usually because they really stopped believing some time ago. Certainly, some people can join the church in appearance and never have believed at all - but this doesn't mean that everyone who leaves the universal church fits that profile.)
Furthermore, the very same chapter shows that remaining in Christ is a condition for eternal life: "As for you
, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—eternal life." I Jn 2:24
Finally, You have God giving someone a gift, telling them they will never die KNOWING that person will later deny him in lack of faith, thus forcing God to remove his eternal life from them. Ie, it is an insult to the diety of God to say one can lose salvation because someone who CLAIMED to have faiht lost it. And thus lost salvation.
God states they *hold* eternal life and have passed from death (condemnation under sin) to life in Christ. All that is true for someone when they believe, no matter how long they believe for. If they deliberately reject faith, then they are cut off and uprooted - returning to death (condemnation under sin.) That in no way makes God 'a liar' - it's completely in line with the revealed gospel and what many passages warn as the fate of those who reject faith and willfully return to sin and death.
Basically, our new life starts at the first moment of faith. Our eternal life in Christ continues as we walk with Christ in faith. And we have the hope that we will receive eternal life (new spiritual bodies that cannot die) at the resurrection - a hope rooted in our faith. But if we reject faith and hence reject Christ, we no longer can claim that hope or that eternal life. We return to condemnation and have only the expectation of fiery judgement.
You added a condition not given. Paul said th pledge was UNTIL the day of redemption. There was no condition of keeping faithful.
The pledge is only to believers. The pledge lasts until the day of redemption *only* to believers. There is no promise to unbelievers, whether or not they once believed.
Again, think of school. The school gives the 'pledge' of graduation to those who meet the conditions. All students have this hope. (Not exact analogy, again, as it's Christ's grades and works that matter not ours - our only 'condition' is faith.) But if a student drops out, does that mean the school failed it's pledge? No, the pledge is for the students who remain until graduation. It doesn't apply to any student who leaves, even if they once were under the same pledge for a time when they used to be in school.
Your ignoring justification. Justification is the process of bering forghiven ALL SIN, of making one perfect. Sanctification is a process of taking the justified believer and growing them into a mature believer, which is an ongoing process which will take a lifetime, Paul plainly said he continued to run the race, because he never made it, Non of us will come to the point of we are perfect in this lifetime conditionally. So perfection is this verse is not about being made perfect conditionally where we are sinless. It is about being made or given the righteousness of Christ in us.
Justification is God viewing us through Christ's perfection, not our own. To be justified is to be "declared righteous" - not become righteous in and of ourselves. God forgives our sin through the covering blood of Christ, not by removing all sin from us. And how are we justified? By FAITH. "know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified." Gal 2:16
"...Being justified (present passive) freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. He did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and
the one who justifies (present active) the one of faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith." Rom 3:24-27
Justification is not a once and done thing of the past. We are justified from the first moment of faith and God continues to justify (active/ongoing) those with faith.
Phil 1 is about God who started a good work in a believer, the work is sanctification. And paul made it clear. The god who started it WILL COMPLETE IT. Any other interpreation makes paul out to be a liar.
Paul is confidence God will continue the work he began in the Philippian church (note this is a plural/corporate confidence, not one that goes to individuals) based on their track record. This is a common form of exhortation, and is about confidence in God's work not their individual actions.
For example, if I were to say, "Wow, I have seen how your group has partnered with missionaries from the first moment you guys believed. I'm confident God will finish the work he started" my personal confidence that God will keep working in them has no power to 'mandate' that no single individual in that group would turn away. And there is no basis in the text to over-extrapolate Paul's confidence based on their prior work in the ministry to be a teaching that no individual can ever reject faith.
And note the exact reasons Paul gave for his confidence (and it was not 'no one can fall away'): ""It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart,
for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel.""
I.e. his confidence was based in their fruit.
Paul's confidence or fears about groups do not mandate their individual actions. For example, when Paul says "I am afraid I have labored over you in vain" (Gal 4:20) He isn't stating that it is definite that every single individual Galatian was going to end up falling away. Rather, he is stating a fear based on their displayed fruit and their desire to return to the law.
See also:
https://www.jba.gr/He-who-started-the-good-work-in-me-will-finish-it-anyway-Philippians-1-6.htm for a longer discussion of this text.
God does not have to force people to have faith. All he has to do is continue to be faithful.
True, but if we disown Christ, then Christ must disown us before God. God, in His faithfulness, must judge the unbeliever regardless of whether that person once believed.
We are talking about salvation here, Not faith in God in all areas of our life. I can lack faith of God in a particular area of my life, and because of it, continue to sin in that area. It does not mean I lost faith in him as my savior.
I completely agree. Struggles with doubts or sins are not the same thing as deliberately rejecting faith in Christ (Lk 8:13, I Tim 1:19, Heb 6:4-8, etc.) and willfully returning to sin (Heb 10:4-6, II Pet 2:20-22, etc.)
Phil 2 is paul telling uys to work out what we already have in our possession. The greek term has been found to be used as a mining term, where you take the material which is in the ground and mine it or work it out of the ground. Paul is telling us to take the salvation we already have and using it (work it out) thus making it usefull. He is not telling us to work in order to earn salvation.
I agree Paul isn't telling anyone to 'work to earn salvation.' I never said he was saying such a thing. But why would Paul tell them to "hold fast to the word of life" as part of this so Paul could be proud in the day of Christ that he didn't run in vain (Phil 1:7) if it was impossible that they wouldn't hold fast or impossible that Paul could have ran in vain? I Tim 1:19 shows it is possible to not hold fast to faith and thus make shipwreck of our faith; and Gal 4:20 shows it was a real fear of Paul's that he could have ran in vain. This has nothing to do with individuals not doing enough 'works' or bearing enough 'fruit,' but the consequence of them not holding fast to faith or seeking to return to the law.
