Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[FreeGrace2]

I do, however believe that we need both salvation by justification AND works AFTER salvation.

This denies the truth of Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

Does this bother you?

Works cannot save us but they certainly are an indication of our salvation.

Flip flop. You just said "we need both salvation by justification AND works AFTER salvation".

You posted Ephesians 2:8,,,good.

No, not "good". But "very good".

But we also have Ephesians 2:10. We are saved to do the good works God wishes us to do and for which He prepares us...whatever those works may be; we each have our task to do to help promote the Kingdom of God here on earth. Would you agree to this?

It still seems from your posts that you believe that works somehow are involved in our salvation, but they are NOT.

v.10 is what we have been saved to do. Works aren't for salvation in ANY SENSE. They are commands from the Lord to show obedience and will be rewarded.

I don't believe the bible teaches that we can be good enough to be saved ... only God is good. We, OTOH, are born sinful, with the sin nature (but not totally depraved). However, after salvation I do believe God expects us to obey His commandments and be good persons. Do you think He likes evil persons??

So far, so good. But you continue to fall back on works for "ultimate salvation".

But works have no place in getting or staying saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are very few words, or even idea, that are different than the original language. I had thought of one just the other day but it escapes me. I does not, however, change the meaning and message of the N.T.

God wants to save man.
God sent Jesus to release us from the grips of satan.
There are some conditions to be met.
That's about it.

No, there is ony 1 condition to be met for salvation.

`1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Please believe the red words.

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Please believe the Bible.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Hi Gr8
Are you out of calvinism now?

Yep. The tulip is wilted and dead.

I do, however believe that we need both salvation by justification AND works AFTER salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10 refutes this idea.

Works cannot save us

I believe this. But everything you write, indicates that you really don't.

We are saved by grace through faith. And we are saved that we SHOULD do the works God has prepared for us.............Some believers do these works and some don't.

1. For those who do them.....there is reward, blessings,reign with Him and inheritance that will blow their mind.
2. For those who don't do them there is discipline(sometimes severe), loss of reward,loss of reign and rank,loss of inheritance and possible loss of physical life.
1 Cor 3:15~~ New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

We cannot do these divine works if we are not eternally saved and indwelt with His Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All you have is opinion, and are unable to answer a question from the scriptures.

You're just so full of your own opinion. Which doesn't agree with Scripture.

I mentioned John 10:28 3 times and quoted all of it once.

I even color coded it for ease of following my 2 points about what Jesus was teaching.

You are still just stating your opinion, and tagging it with a half truth out of context.

Bogus opinion.

You are a deceitful liar, and a promoter of lies.

All you've done is spew your opinion, which does not agree with Scripture. The FALSE doctrine comes from you.

The 100 sheep belong to the shepherd, as they are His sheep: Born again - Children of God.

• What man of you, having a hundred sheep

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

However, we see from this teaching of Jesus, that His sheep can indeed become lost.

• ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

• likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The 99 are said to be "just"; Declared by God as right with Him - Righteous

The one who becomes lost, is described by Jesus as a sinner [unjust; not reconciled to God - unrighteous] in need of repentance.

Repentance doesn't save. Believing in Christ saves.

These are the words of Jesus.

Why don't you believe these words of Jesus?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

And from the beloved apostle:

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These are all present tense possessions about eternal life.

Now comes the question to you -

Based on the actual words Jesus uses, is a sheep [born again Christian] who wanders away and becomes lost, a sinner or saint, saved or unsaved, just or unjust?

I'm still waiting for your answer to my question about whether you have stopped beating your wife yet?

Well, have you?

 

[Gr8Grace]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


A Christian who hates another brother in Christ no longer has eternal life in them.


JLB

As I have said, the epitome of hating our brother's and sister's in Christ is loss of salvation,your not really saved yet or working for/maintaining your salvation.

Not to mention those who seem to have a mission in life to spread fear and doubt to believers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What does John 10:28 say?

Your false accusations are getting really bizarre. I am guessing you are not well.

Why don't you post what the scripture says?

I have and everyone who follows this thread knows that. Why don't you post something that's actually true? Or would that be too difficult for you?

Because you can only deceive.

Satan is quite happy with those who preach that salvation can be lost.

There is no truth in you.

Your opinions are devoid of truth.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

You've made it extremely clear that you do not know the Lord because of all the verses that you reject.

You have openly claimed that born again Christians can take the mark of the beast and still be saved.

Get over yourself. I have clarified. Your question was bogus because of its false premise.

Oh, btw, have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Since you were kicked off that forum, you have changed your story, so you can continue to promote your deceitful lies here.

Again, you have no knowledge or facts, just your wildly erroneous claims and opinions.

I was restricted for 30 days, but decided I'd had enough of all the PC silliness of the mods there.

Now you can't answer a simple question from the scriptures, because you claim a lost sheep is still saved.

Why haven't you answered my simple question about whether you've ever stopped beating your wife? huh?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

A Christian who hates another brother in Christ no longer has eternal life in them.
JLB

Knowing how much you reject Scripture that disagrees and refutes your opinions, I'm going to explain that verse, for the benefit of this thread, since I know you'll reject it.

As always, the key is the concept of "abiding". Moreover, the concept of John's 'abiding' is always that it is a reciprocal relationship, even as Jesus said, "Abide in Me, as I abide in you" in John 15:4.

Since Christ Himself IS eternal life (1 John 5:20), to say that someone does not have eternal life abiding in him is equivalent to saying that he does not have Christ abiding in him.

I know how you'll twist this into a perverted idea of losing salvation, but that is impossible because Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never, no, not ever, perish.

But you have been very clear that you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish.

Your argument is strictly with Jesus.

 

[Gr8Grace]

I was restricted for 30 days, but decided I'd had enough of all the PC silliness of the mods there.

IMO, It was a butthead thing to bring up on this forum in the first place. But it does go to show the desperation and ultimate defeat of his false doctrine.

And your absolutely correct. That forum fell into false doctrine and is following false doctrine and is a co-exist, politically correct nightmare.

The Truth is being restricted in that forum.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The Bible does not say we can be unsealed.
That is your interpretation, your opinion, and I don't believe God holds your opinion or my opinion against us, because he's bigger than that.
In case you didn't know, I'm 68 years hold and have a problem staying concentrated on things.
I tend to skip using verses because I can't remember where they are as I use to.
The fact is in the past, I've given you all the Scripture to back up my point but you refuse to except it.

Do you suppose I should accept everything everybody tells me about God that I feel is incorrect? Do YOU accept what I say?
No. So what's the difference? YOU have the truth and I don't?

I should write this out and then copy and paste...I'm so tired of repeating what I'm going to write below.

I've said many times that the writers of the N.T. would have been much more careful in their wording if they knew we'd come up with such silly ideas in our time.

Jesus said He didn't come to abolish the law. All the Apostles knew they had to obey God in order to be members of the Kingdom of God. They all knew that to achieve salvation they'd have to keep the commandments. You know, TRY to keep, no one KEEPS all of them.

So, here we go:

Back when Paul was writing, a seal was used in an official document to show that it was authentic. This is still done today, in fact. Like government docs, for example.

Kings would put a seal on an order of theirs. So, could the order be rescinded? Of course! Kings, for instance did this all the time. They'd send out an order and then change their mind and rescind the order. So did the fact that the original had a seal and was authentic make a difference? No! Because it was only authentic and official and in force for as long AS THE KING WANTED IT TO BE.

Jesus is our King. He is the King of the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is here on earth. In John 3:3 Jesus said those that are not born again could not even SEE the Kingdom of God.

Jesus gave us some conditions if we want to belong to His Kingdom. The gospel of Mathew is full of these conditions.
For example, Mathew 5:3-10 tells us how Jesus wants us to act. Mathew 6 tells us how to pray, how to fast, how to give to the poor. Mathew 7 tells us that we are not to be lawless, we are to forgive, we are to ACT on the words of Jesus...verse 24.

So, as long as we adhere to these conditions, we are a member of God's Kingdom and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit to show that we are authentically Christian and belong to God.

If we break God's conditions, and no longer live by the rules of the Kingdom, we will surely be expelled from that Kingdom, just as Jesus proclaimed while on earth. Why? Because we will no longer be authentic Christians, we will no longer belong in the Kingdom of God together with those that ARE following His conditions.

See Ephesians 1:13-14
13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Also see Ephesians 5:1-7. We will have no inheritance in the Kingdom if we do not follow God's laws.
1Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

3But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not be partakers with them;

 

[GodsGrace101]

Actually, every church I've been in for 33 1/2 years is OSAS, only not the way you see it.

LOL
I wonder why?

What way do I see it?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yep. The tulip is wilted and dead.

LOL
Praise the Lord!
Isn't He a wonderful God of Love, Justice and Mercy?!

Ephesians 2:8-10 refutes this idea.

How?
We are created for good works.
We should walk in them.

Psalm 37:3
Galatians 6:10
James 2:14-17
3 John 1:11
Mathew 6:1
Titus 3:14

and so many more!
How does one get around these verses written to saved persons?

I believe this. But everything you write, indicates that you really don't.

Works DO NOT SAVE.
But we are required to obey the commandments of God.
Unsaved persons do not have to obey God...they're already lost.
WE have to obey God if we're going to be in fellowship with Him.

We are saved by grace through faith. And we are saved that we SHOULD do the works God has prepared for us.............Some believers do these works and some don't.

SHOULD?
Did any of those verses I posted right here say SHOULD?
None of them. And why would a believer NOT do them?
And what do you think these good works are?

1. For those who do them.....there is reward, blessings,reign with Him and inheritance that will blow their mind.
2. For those who don't do them there is discipline(sometimes severe), loss of reward,loss of reign and rank,loss of inheritance and possible loss of physical life.
1 Cor 3:15~~ New American Standard Bible
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

We cannot do these divine works if we are not eternally saved and indwelt with His Spirit.

Oh no.
I heard Charles Stanley give a whole sermon on this once.
I thought God must be very upset with him. He surely is leading some to lose their salvation. THIS IS NOT TRUE.
Jesus did not come here to give us rewards but to SAVE OUR SOUL. The bible speaks about perishing if we don't believe in Him. It speaks about being destroyed, about burning up, about withering.

As to 1 Corinthians 3:15...please read it again and then tell me WHO it is speaking about. It is NOT about how we barely escape the fire. It's speaking about the Apostles and those who teach and build upon the foundation of Christ ... please read it again.

I do agree that our being indwelt with the Holy Spirit makes working for God possible. Everything I do is a work for God...
Colossians 3:23
23Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,

 

[OSAS 101]

LOL
I wonder why?

What way do I see it?

the legalistic wrong way.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I showed the definition of a "pledge". It's a solemn promise.

And I asked you if God ever reneges on any of His promises.

Do you have an answer?

The answer is no.
2 Timothy 2:13
Yes, FG, this is what 2 Timothy means,,,not what YOU think it means. God remains faithful to HIMSELF because He cannot lie.

He does NOT remain faithful to YOU if you are not faithful to Him. Read also 2 Timothy 2:12
Does the bible contradict itself? No.
So does He deny us or does He remain faithful even if we're faithless? It's simple if you're willing to accept the truth.

What verse teaches that any believer in the NT has lost or can lose the indwelling Holy Spirit?

What is the reward?

Colossians 3:24-25
24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve. 25For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.


What was Paul preaching for? Rewards? No!
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Hebrews 6:4-6 It's for everyone, not just the Jews...
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Mathew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

1 Corinthians 9:27
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Jesus said on different occasions that it is those who endure to the end who will be saved.

Mathew 10:22
22“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

Hebrews 3:6
6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

There are so many verses that I rarely use the same ones over and over --- as you seem to do with John 10.

How can you NOT understand that Eph 1:14 doesn't PERMIT such a thing?

What thing doesn't Ephesians 1:14 permit?

I never ever said such a thing. The second soil WAS SAVED because they DID believe.

The fact that it was "for a while" changes nothing. John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 all say that those who believe POSSESS eternal life. So the second soil received eternal life WHEN they believed. And Jesus was clear: those He gives eternal life shall never, no, not ever, perish.

But that's not what JESUS said..
HE said that they FELL AWAY.
Do you know what that means?

If parts of something fall away, they break off and drop to theground:

On the bathroom ceiling, some piecesof plaster had fallen away.
The rear sections of the rocket fellaway.
source: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/fall-away

As you can see, fall away means to be SEPARATED from an object...as when we FALL AWAY from our faith, we are separated from the OBJECT OF OUR FAITH,,,which is Christ.

Please don't confuse me with reformed people. They are in error, just as much as Arminians who believe that salvation can be lost.

Everyone is wrong, I guess.
Except you.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I said:
"This is actually delusional. I've shared very clear verses about our security. From the moment of faith in Christ, when we receive the gift of eternal life."

You should have actually read my supporting verses. Are you lazy, or just don't want the facts?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
This is present tense, not future tense, as you wrongly assume.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes HAS eternal life.
Same tense.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you HAVE eternal life.

The problem is that you just don't want to believe the Bible. You REFUSE to believe it.


I've given 3 verses that totally refute your opinion.


Sure. How did that work out for the Pharisees?


Go ahead and totally ignore John 5:24, which is in the context of these verses.


Please compare this passage with the other 2 parallel passages: 1 Cor 6 and Eph 5.

This and 1 Cor 6 use the phrase "not inherit the kingdom", but Eph 5 says "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

So, the issue is about what's IN the kingdom. To "not inherit the kingdom" means to have no inheritance IN the kingdom.

So these passages are NOT about not entering, as you opine, but having no inheritance there.

The inheritance in these passages is the same inheritance that is mentioned in Rom 8:17b (not a) and 2 Tim 2:12a (not b).

If you BELIEVE you have ETERNAL LIFE.
If you DO NOT BELIEVE, you DO NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

This is one of God's conditions...
You must believe to have eternal life.
If you stop believing...you stop having eternal life.
If you stop living as He wants you to...
You stop having eternal life.

This is not to scare anyone, as YOU think is the case...
It's to warn them against persons such as yourself who will lead many to become lost because of your incorrect doctrine.

Ditto for the Kingdom of God.
It starts here on earth...if you belong to the Kingdom of God here on earth, you will also belong to it after death.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I said this:
"OK. Now, what did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life?

They shall never, no, not ever, perish.

Do you believe what Jesus said?"

Who ever suggested that He did need help?


Already answered. His sheep, which are believers, per John 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13.

Why do you refuse to accept these 3 verses?


So that's what the red and blue words really mean??? Is English your native language? Seems not.

Actually, the CAUSE of having eternal life (the subject of my comments) is Jesus. He gives it.

The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing. But you just still refuse to believe it.


I agree.

But what you refuse to believe is that once belief, will never perish. OBWNP

You worry too much about my English and not enough about your salvation and the salvation of others.

Anyone with common sense and is reading along will understand that we are saved for as long as we wish to be and for as long as we trust in Jesus and believe in Him.

That is the condition.
God has conditions.
You have to be IN the New Covenant in order to be a part of it.

If you study the covenants you'll understand the bible much better.

Answer this:
Did any covenant ever abolish the preceding one?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Well, that would be new. Explaining what Eph 1:13,14 "really" mean.

I can't wait. Should I go get some popcorn?

No FG.
You have no desire to know the truth.

 

[GodsGrace101]

No, there is ony 1 condition to be met for salvation.

`1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Please believe the red words.

Acts 16-
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Please believe the Bible.

I do FG.
Please tell me what the word BELIEVE means...
in the Greek.
Thanks.

 

[Dan the deacon]

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15


A Christian who hates another brother in Christ no longer has eternal life in them.


JLB

.

You're just so full of your own opinion. Which doesn't agree with Scripture.

I mentioned John 10:28 3 times and quoted all of it once.

I even color coded it for ease of following my 2 points about what Jesus was teaching.


Bogus opinion.


All you've done is spew your opinion, which does not agree with Scripture. The FALSE doctrine comes from you.


Repentance doesn't save. Believing in Christ saves.


Why don't you believe these words of Jesus?

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

And from the beloved apostle:

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These are all present tense possessions about eternal life.


I'm still waiting for your answer to my question about whether you have stopped beating your wife yet?

Well, have you?

Repentance is indeed a part of salvation and a part of believing. Saying "I believe in Jesus "means little. I know many Mexicans with that name. Too many of these supposed "sinners prayers" do not begin to proclaim a Christian belief. But then believing you are already fully saved is also a mistake.

 

[Dan the deacon]

I remember reading an account of a couple belonging to the Church in the book of Acts. They lied about their finances. It does not appear they kept thier salvation.

 

[WordSword]

I remember reading an account of a couple belonging to the Church in the book of Acts. They lied about their finances. It does not appear they kept thier salvation.

As long as we understand that we are not communicating to compete (which I believe is the same for you) we can continue with our fellowship in the Word.

Concerning Ananias and Sapphira, I would be hard-pressed to conceive they were born again, considering they lied to the Author of rebirth (Spirit of God).