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Theologies

dreadnought

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Except he has no desire to do that which we selfishly pursue without any help. His stated goal is to teach us to want the happiness of others as much as we naturally want our own.
Most certainly he does want us to be happy - he loves us.
 
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dreadnought

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Sometimes you get death though, in this life I mean.
I believe there is some symbolism in the Bible. "Life" sometimes means "good times" and "death" sometimes means "suffering." Ezekiel 33:17-20 is the perfect example.
 
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dreadnought

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It is written Yahweh created all things SIMPLE. MAN came up with many devices (sinful and complicated)
Yes, when we start rationalizing to justify our sin ...
 
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Tutorman

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I have always liked this quote from the movie shadowlands:


“Here I am going to say something which may come as a bit of a shock. God doesn't necessarily want us to be happy. He wants us to be lovable. Worthy of love. Able to be loved by Him. We don't start off being all that lovable, if we're honest. What makes people hard to love? Isn't it what is commonly called selfishness? Selfish people are hard to love because so little love comes out of them.” *

----
* https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/422142-we-can-ignore-even-pleasure-but-pain-insists-upon-being
 
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fhansen

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Except for the church teaching God desires our happiness (which is not the same as "blessed" since Jesus said "blessed" are those have qualities that match those of God such as suffering, not generally a mark of happiness) most of this is true but if this is what a person embraces as the sole motive of God, they are not going to remain following Jesus for long. His goal is not that we feel personal happiness in our life and well-being. His goal is that we learn to love Him and love others as we love ourselves. The above message appeals right to the selfishness we can embrace and feeds it. It would be like telling a new groom that his wife is there to meet his needs and help him through life leaving out the bit that he will called upon to do the same for her, laying aside his selfish desires at time.
Love and happiness are ultimately intrinsically connected, as selfishness and misery are connected in the end, even as we may think we’ve found happiness on this earth, temporarily, by pursuing selfish interests.
I have lost two children and am no strange to the above. The above is true but rather surfacey.
We’re here to learn of God-to gain “the knowledge of God”: that He exists, that He’s trustworthy, true, and good, that we need Him. These are items that Adam missed, but these are things we can learn here with the help of experience and grace. For example, rich people aren’t hated by God, they just have a harder time loving Him because they feel no need, falsely secure as they are in their wealth. But God can cut through that stony heart, and sometimes hardships/ suffering are used for that purpose. “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible”. It’s very simple, not particularly surfacey or anything else; “surfacey” having more to do with a faith that’s been tested little, in fact.
Well, the church never preached personal happiness is God's life goal for us. That is actually deeply selfish. But yes, many make choices based on obtaining personal happiness at the expense of the happiness of others. IT is true but the chruch does not teach it as a valid goal in life.
It’s not at all selfish; eternal life isn’t meant to be merely eternally endured by a bunch of holy boors; it has to do with who God is to begin with. Happiness is a goal of everyone without giving it any thought; we don’t generally go out of our way to experience suffering; we feed ourselves and our children when they’re hungry; we clothe ourselves to stay warm; we shield or protect ourselves from humiliation; we do these things all the time in order to satisfy basic needs and maintain a modicum of happiness in this world. Selfishness involves wanting more than we need: becoming a glutton, or being a clothes-horse, or seeking glory, forsaking moderation.
Don't you see that the above is completely selfish? Wanting what is good and right for ourselves (no matter what it costs others) is completely selfish. I know of this catchy phrase and it is not how God works. One needs to add what we let go of, our selfish pursuit for our own happiness, and let God tell work on us to love the happiness of others as much as our own.
No one mentioned seeking happiness at the cost of others. IOW it’s possible to love and also be happy. In fact it's impossible to be truly happy and not love, acknowledging that love always involves doing no harm to God and neighbor.
Why do you think selfish pursuit of personal happiness at the expense of the happiness is the teaching of the church and yet say at the end the opposite? (Some of us do know it as well as God desires us to, btw.)
You called the pursuit of happiness selfish-I called it normal-and only selfish if it involves harming others.
He who turns away from evil for fear of punishment is better than he who does evil fearing no punishment at all. If a man has ever been truly discipled or punished by God, he would know the foolishness of the above statement. It sounds lofty and noble but the human heart is such that punishment is a motivation that teaches a man to do good. Eventually he will do good for other reasons but at least he is still doing good along the way. Waiting for the right motive to do good will embed doing evil all along the way quite nicely.
Yes, meaning fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. But, as we genuinely come to know God, fear is little by little cast out by love. Sheez, Dorothy, you seem to be adamantly bent on remaining in a stifled frame of mind on this IMO
I personally know a man who stole a monitor at work and because he was about to be taken to court, he returned it. He was not doing it out of love but fear of punishment. The people who got their monitor returned did not care the motive. They just wanted their stolen property back.
If he had loved as he should, he would never have stolen to begin with. God prefers that. Gee, I wonder why?

So from before Augustine, and including him, it’s been acknowledged just from a psychological and philosophical viewpoint alone that humans desire happiness. What do you think the reason might be that humans would actually want to exist eternally, and what would could keep that desire lit? Do you think God would have us simply gut eternity out? God is our happiness, ultimately. His mere presence produces sheer, unbridled bliss inside of a human.

Augustine realized that his own failure to find happiness here on earth was because he loved earthly things more than God. We’re all here to learn that same lesson. He affirmed: "all persons want to be happy; and no persons are happy who do not have what they want." “What they want”, however, isn’t necessarily what they need. Adam thought he could find a greater something: fulfillment, happiness, whatever, apart from God. Jesus tells us the truth we need to hear in John 15:5, “Apart from Me you can do nothing.”
So the church teaches:

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.

"1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it:
'We all want to live happily; in the whole human race there is no one who does not assent to this proposition, even before it is fully articulated. How is it, then, that I seek you, Lord? Since in seeking you, my God, I seek a happy life, let me seek you so that my soul may live, for my body draws life from my soul and my soul draws life from you.'(Augustine)

'God alone satisfies.' (Aquinas)"

"1723 The beatitude we are promised confronts us with decisive moral choices. It invites us to purify our hearts of bad instincts and to seek the love of God above all else. It teaches us that true happiness is not found in riches or well-being, in human fame or power, or in any human achievement - however beneficial it may be - such as science, technology, and art, or indeed in any creature, but in God alone, the source of every good and of all love:
'All bow down before wealth. Wealth is that to which the multitude of men pay an instinctive homage. They measure happiness by wealth; and by wealth they measure respectability. . . . It is a homage resulting from a profound faith . . . that with wealth he may do all things. Wealth is one idol of the day and notoriety is a second. . . . Notoriety, or the making of a noise in the world - it may be called "newspaper fame" - has come to be considered a great good in itself, and a ground of veneration.' (John Newman)"

"2548 Desire for true happiness frees man from his immoderate attachment to the goods of this world so that he can find his fulfillment in the vision and beatitude of God. "The promise [of seeing God] surpasses all beatitude. . . . In Scripture, to see is to possess. . . . Whoever sees God has obtained all the goods of which he can conceive."
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I believe there is some symbolism in the Bible. "Life" sometimes means "good times" and "death" sometimes means "suffering." Ezekiel 33:17-20 is the perfect example.
Well, if you allow yourself to change the meanings of words to what you prefer instead of what the author was saying, you’ll never arrive at truth.

Do you allow others who read what you write and hear what you say to change the meaning to something they prefer? If you ask your spouse to help you find a key you misplaced can they decide they’re being asked to think about important things you should do? (a lot more fun that searching for a lost object) Can I change the meaning of what you write here to something I like better? When write, for example, God wants you to be happy, can I then change that to God wants you to work hard? Is that OK?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Yes, when we start rationalizing to justify our sin ...
A good way to do this is to just change the meanings of words
to those that suit us personally. Nevermind what the author or God wanted to communicate.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Love and happiness are ultimately intrinsically connected, as selfishness and misery are connected in the end, even as we may think we’ve found happiness on this earth, temporarily, by pursuing selfish interests.

We’re here to learn of God-to gain “the knowledge of God”: that He exists, that He’s trustworthy, true, and good, that we need Him. These are items that Adam missed, but these are things we can learn here with the help of experience and grace. For example, rich people aren’t hated by God, they just have a harder time loving Him because they feel no need, falsely secure as they are in their wealth. But God can cut through that stony heart, and sometimes hardships/ suffering are used for that purpose. “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible”. It’s very simple, not particularly surfacey or anything else; “surfacey” having more to do with a faith that’s been tested little, in fact.

It’s not at all selfish; eternal life isn’t meant to be merely eternally endured by a bunch of holy boors; it has to do with who God is to begin with. Happiness is a goal of everyone without giving it any thought; we don’t generally go out of our way to experience suffering; we feed ourselves and our children when they’re hungry; we clothe ourselves to stay warm; we shield or protect ourselves from humiliation; we do these things all the time in order to satisfy basic needs and maintain a modicum of happiness in this world. Selfishness involves wanting more than we need: becoming a glutton, or being a clothes-horse, or seeking glory, forsaking moderation.

No one mentioned seeking happiness at the cost of others. IOW it’s possible to love and also be happy. In fact it's impossible to be truly happy and not love, acknowledging that love always involves doing no harm to God and neighbor.

You called the pursuit of happiness selfish-I called it normal-and only selfish if it involves harming others.

Yes, meaning fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. But, as we genuinely come to know God, fear is little by little cast out by love. Sheez, Dorothy, you seem to be adamantly bent on remaining in a stifled frame of mind on this IMO

If he had loved as he should, he would never have stolen to begin with. God prefers that. Gee, I wonder why?

So from before Augustine, and including him, it’s been acknowledged just from a psychological and philosophical viewpoint alone that humans desire happiness. What do you think the reason might be that humans would actually want to exist eternally, and what would could keep that desire lit? Do you think God would have us simply gut eternity out? God is our happiness, ultimately. His mere presence produces sheer, unbridled bliss inside of a human.

Augustine realized that his own failure to find happiness here on earth was because he loved earthly things more than God. We’re all here to learn that same lesson. He affirmed: "all persons want to be happy; and no persons are happy who do not have what they want." “What they want”, however, isn’t necessarily what they need. Adam thought he could find a greater something: fulfillment, happiness, whatever, apart from God. Jesus tells us the truth we need to hear in John 15:5, “Apart from Me you can do nothing.”
So the church teaches:

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.

"1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it:
'We all want to live happily; in the whole human race there is no one who does not assent to this proposition, even before it is fully articulated. How is it, then, that I seek you, Lord? Since in seeking you, my God, I seek a happy life, let me seek you so that my soul may live, for my body draws life from my soul and my soul draws life from you.'(Augustine)

'God alone satisfies.' (Aquinas)"

"1723 The beatitude we are promised confronts us with decisive moral choices. It invites us to purify our hearts of bad instincts and to seek the love of God above all else. It teaches us that true happiness is not found in riches or well-being, in human fame or power, or in any human achievement - however beneficial it may be - such as science, technology, and art, or indeed in any creature, but in God alone, the source of every good and of all love:
'All bow down before wealth. Wealth is that to which the multitude of men pay an instinctive homage. They measure happiness by wealth; and by wealth they measure respectability. . . . It is a homage resulting from a profound faith . . . that with wealth he may do all things. Wealth is one idol of the day and notoriety is a second. . . . Notoriety, or the making of a noise in the world - it may be called "newspaper fame" - has come to be considered a great good in itself, and a ground of veneration.' (John Newman)"

"2548 Desire for true happiness frees man from his immoderate attachment to the goods of this world so that he can find his fulfillment in the vision and beatitude of God. "The promise [of seeing God] surpasses all beatitude. . . . In Scripture, to see is to possess. . . . Whoever sees God has obtained all the goods of which he can conceive."
This is way too long to read. So just a few pointers. You should try to love others by refraining from insulting them personally out of assumed knowledge where there is really great ignorance. If you loved others, you wouldn’t attack their character.

Second, you also wrongly assume everyone is like you. Not everyone pursues happiness as a life goal. You accuse others of just not admitting it but you are wrong. Jesus did not live or go to the cross so he’d be happy. There are lots of other examples.

Thirdly, if pursuing happiness is a life goal (instead of being good, for example), one cannot fail to do so at the expense of others. That these words are left out of your sentence doesn’t change anything. Some decades age there is was a popular advise “you gotta do what’s right for you” leaving out the obvious that it doesn’t matter who this damages. I watched a woman embrace this life view and she became more and more selfish.

Now you want to excuse the selfishness in your position by saying only i call it selfish. But i’m pretty sure that those who live by your view are also seen as such by others who suffer under their pursuit of personal happiness. There is no pursuing your happiness as a goal without becoming selfish because the life goal justifies being so as necessary to achieve that goal. Sooner or later your happiness cannot be satisfied at the same time someone else’s is. The goal justifies choosing your happiness over others. That is selfishness pure.

I only caught the last bit on the God part. It is clear to
me that the author doesn’t know God. Seeing God is not having all the goods one can think of. That is never the response of those who know his presence. It’s again, making God a means to personal happiness. God doesn’t cooperate.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Most certainly he does want us to be happy - he loves us.
Ah, I’ve decided to take the liberties you give yourself when reading others’ written work and apply it to you. That’s fair. So yes, God most certainly does want us to work hard - He loves us. So work hard today cause that’s what God wants of you.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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It might vex me till the Lord calmed me down, but the real trouble begins when we start experiencing the consequences of our sin.
I think you would be more than vexed. Secondly God doesn’t promise to calm us down or keep us calm. We are not buddhists. Jesus got pretty angry at times and so does God. Being calm is not goal either.
 
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Foxfyre

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It seems to me most people abide by one of these theologies:

1. The Lord wants us to suffer for no reason.
2. The Lord doesn't care what we do - we're all going to heaven.
3. The Lord wants us to be happy, and that means obeying his commandments, since the commandments keep us out of trouble, if we obey them.

What do you think?

To me none of the above are accurate. I do not believe a loving God wants anybody to suffer an I think he cares very much what we do and our relationship with Him. And we cannot do anything to deserve salvation.

I believe salvation is his gift to us and must be accepted as his gift given in love. When we receive that gift, we honor and love the Lord by keeping his commandments in the spirit they were given to us and not out of any sense of requirement or duty. We cannot earn salvation for all have sinned and fallen short. Salvation is a gift to be received by sinners.
 
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fhansen

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This is way too long to read. So just a few pointers. You should try to love others by refraining from insulting them personally out of assumed knowledge where there is really great ignorance. If you loved others, you wouldn’t attack their character.

Second, you also wrongly assume everyone is like you. Not everyone pursues happiness as a life goal. You accuse others of just not admitting it but you are wrong. Jesus did not live or go to the cross so he’d be happy. There are lots of other examples.

Thirdly, if pursuing happiness is a life goal (instead of being good, for example), one cannot fail to do so at the expense of others. That these words are left out of your sentence doesn’t change anything. Some decades age there is was a popular advise “you gotta do what’s right for you” leaving out the obvious that it doesn’t matter who this damages. I watched a woman embrace this life view and she became more and more selfish.

Now you want to excuse the selfishness in your position by saying only i call it selfish. But i’m pretty sure that those who live by your view are also seen as such by others who suffer under their pursuit of personal happiness. There is no pursuing your happiness as a goal without becoming selfish because the life goal justifies being so as necessary to achieve that goal. Sooner or later your happiness cannot be satisfied at the same time someone else’s is. The goal justifies choosing your happiness over others. That is selfishness pure.

I only caught the last bit on the God part. It is clear to
me that the author doesn’t know God. Seeing God is not having all the goods one can think of. That is never the response of those who know his presence. It’s again, making God a means to personal happiness. God doesn’t cooperate.
Alright, Dorothy, I presented the position of the church, refined over the last many centuries, which is quite different for the most part from what you've responded with above. But either way it sounds like you already have everything figured out on this matter.

BTW, in the end Jesus could not have been happy unless He went to the cross, unless He did His Father's will, unless He died for us, regardless of the suffering He endured. And God is the greatest good that anyone can conceive, and that's why we're to worship Him above all else; it's a matter of having our priorities straight. This worship comes naturally the more we recognize His incomparable goodness incidentally, meaning the more we truly love Him.

Also, one person realizing happiness in no way necessarily impinges on or takes away from another person's happiness, or else happiness would be evil, and no one could experience it in heaven.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Alright, Dorothy, I presented the position of the church, refined over the last many centuries, which is quite different for the most part from what you've responded with above.
Ive read some too and never heard the church espouse your position. So no, you presented what YOU believe not what the church taught.

And the church LOST, not refined, some of the understanding over the years as clearly evidenced by the depth expressed in the NT that no church father or theologian since has matched. The church embraced man theology when the believers no longer weee taught to know God themselves.
But either way it sounds like you already have everything figured out on this matter.
As do you. Difference is I’m ready to learn from others as don’t say the whole church taught what I think for some 2000 years now.
BTW, in the end Jesus could not have been happy unless He went to the cross, unless He did His Father's will, unless He died for us, regardless of the suffering He endured.
You turn his sacrifice into something selfish for his own good. And I think he was perfectly happy in Heaven and still will be although the majority don’t make it there.
And God is the greatest good that anyone can conceive, and that's why we're to worship Him above all else; it's a matter of having our priorities straight.
Ok as far as it goes.
This worship comes naturally the more we recognize His incomparable goodness incidentally, meaning the more we truly love Him.
Ah, those of us who know Him don’t worship Him just cause He’s good. There is more to the matter. It isn’t wrong, it’s just insufficient.
Also, one person realizing happiness in no way necessarily impinges on or takes away from another person's happiness, or else happiness would be evil, and no one could experience it in heaven.
I can give lots of examples where this is indeed the case. And, in fact, it is most often the case. I assure you, Trumps winning the election and not dropping out last minute ruined the happiness of a woman. Only one is happy election night. And there are hundred more examples. Hundreds.
 
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fhansen

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Ive read some too and never heard the church espouse your position. So no, you presented what YOU believe not what the church taught.
No, if you read what I posted, you'd see that I quoted the church and early church members as well.
And the church LOST, not refined, some of the understanding over the years as clearly evidenced by the depth expressed in the NT that no church father or theologian since has matched. The church embraced man theology when the believers no longer weee taught to know God themselves.
You're welcome to your personal opinion of course.
You turn his sacrifice into something selfish for his own good.
No, His struggle to do the right thing in the face of the enormous pain that He foreknew He'd have to face is something we can all identify with, even if way less dramatic for most of us; doing the right thing is often hard. In the end, however, unless we do the right thing our consciences are seared, the pangs of guilt and shame have their way inside, our peace, joy, and happiness are lost or compromised. There's nothing inherently wrong with peace, joy, and happiness. And it's ok if God wants that for us.
Ah, those of us who know Him don’t worship Him just cause He’s good. There is more to the matter. It isn’t wrong, it’s just insufficient.
Ah, well that was certainly sufficiently vague. Perhaps you could actually supply a few more reasons yourself then.
I can give lots of examples where this is indeed the case. And, in fact, it is most often the case. I assure you, Trumps winning the election and not dropping out last minute ruined the happiness of a woman. Only one is happy election night. And there are hundred more examples. Hundreds.
So, going by you're last two posts, you're maintaining that it's impossible for one person to find happiness without detracting from the happiness of another?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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No, if you read what I posted, you'd see that I quoted the church and early church members as well.
You quoted Augustine who is not really an early church father as he lived later and another man who was not even close to that. That is not showing that the church taught this down through the centuries. And Augustine had some pretty off doctrine. No one says his writings were inspired.
You're welcome to your personal opinion of course.
As are you. Your view is not in the writings of the early church fathers or you would have quoted them. A whole 400 years late is no longer the early church.
No, His struggle to do the right thing in the face of the enormous pain that He foreknew He'd have to face is something we can all identify with, even if way less dramatic for most of us; doing the right thing is often hard.
That was not his struggle. He never said it was. He did not pray to God to help him do "the right thing." This is really making light of his suffering especially if you think we can relate to it. Most Christians have no idea what he suffered and to pretend one does is to be disrespectful of what it meant to him.
In the end, however, unless we do the right thing our consciences are seared, the pangs of guilt and shame have their way inside, our peace, joy, and happiness are lost or compromised.
Well, depends upon a lot of other factors. That is prety black and white thinking there. I think you are NOT doing the right thing at all making up the theology that has Jesus going to the cross for his own personal happiness and I do not think your conscience is seared or even close.
There's nothing inherently wrong with peace, joy, and happiness. And it's ok if God wants that for us.
There is nothing inherently wrong with eating or sleeping or taking a little wine or telling the truth either. I can go on and on about things that are not inherently wrong. What does this get us?
Ah, well that was certainly sufficiently vague. Perhaps you could actually supply a few more reasons yourself then.
Fair enough. We worship Him because of the qualities of love and kindness and justice and righteousness and truth that spring from his very being, for one.
So, going by you're last two posts, you're maintaining that it's impossible for one person to find happiness without detracting from the happiness of another?
No, again this is too black and white. EIther/or thinking. But if happiness is the goal or stated all excusing motivation, you will find that selfishness reigns. IF loving God and love man is the goal, then the other things fall into place. What actually can develope in the human heart, is that the joy of seeing someone else happier than I am brings satisfaction. This is more like the goal.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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To me none of the above are accurate. I do not believe a loving God wants anybody to suffer an I think he cares very much what we do and our relationship with Him. And we cannot do anything to deserve salvation.
When Paul asked for his suffering to end, God said no. When Jesus asked to escape the suffering, God said no. It does not seem that suffering or not suffering is the point.
I believe salvation is his gift to us and must be accepted as his gift given in love.
What if one accepts it in fear? Is it not valid? How does one know that one accepts it in love and not merely graditude? That is not the same thing.
When we receive that gift, we honor and love the Lord by keeping his commandments in the spirit they were given to us and not out of any sense of requirement or duty.
Does everyone in your church do this? Everyone without fail? Is so honoring the Lord an optional extra? What if we don't want to cause it is too expensive or troublesome?
We cannot earn salvation for all have sinned and fallen short. Salvation is a gift to be received by sinners.
Ah, if a man does not repent of his sins, he cannot be saved. If a man does not ask for mercy in some way (doesn't have to be word for word) he will not be forgiven. It gets worse. IF a man refuses to forgive those who sin against him, he will NOT BE FORGIVEN and that means he is no longer saved. He might have been, but if unforgiveness creeps in, he is no longer forgiven. If forgiving others a "work?" No. Is it necessary to be forgiven? ABSOLUTELY.
 
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dreadnought

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Well, if you allow yourself to change the meanings of words to what you prefer instead of what the author was saying, you’ll never arrive at truth.

Do you allow others who read what you write and hear what you say to change the meaning to something they prefer? If you ask your spouse to help you find a key you misplaced can they decide they’re being asked to think about important things you should do? (a lot more fun that searching for a lost object) Can I change the meaning of what you write here to something I like better? When write, for example, God wants you to be happy, can I then change that to God wants you to work hard? Is that OK?
No, I think there is some symbolism in the Bible.
 
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dreadnought

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A good way to do this is to just change the meanings of words
to those that suit us personally. Nevermind what the author or God wanted to communicate.
No, I think there is some symbolism in the Bible.
 
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dreadnought

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Ah, I’ve decided to take the liberties you give yourself when reading others’ written work and apply it to you. That’s fair. So yes, God most certainly does want us to work hard - He loves us. So work hard today cause that’s what God wants of you.
He does want us to exert the necessary effort to obey his commands.
 
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dreadnought

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I think you would be more than vexed. Secondly God doesn’t promise to calm us down or keep us calm. We are not buddhists. Jesus got pretty angry at times and so does God. Being calm is not goal either.
No, the goal is to repent of our sin so things don't bother us.
 
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