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Coccyx - tale of a creationist disinformation post

tas8831

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CC: @HitchSlap, @pitabread, @PsychoSarah, @tas8831

Shannon's and Gitt's definitions of information both involve purposefully sending a message with the goal that that information is received and acted upon/reconstructed.

And thus neither is directly applicable to genetic systems.
DNA contains information.
Not symbolic information, but information in the abstract sense.
Now, if anyone would like to propose examples of purposeful information arising from random chance, I'm all (mouse) ears.

Why do you think we could entertain your strawman?

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/origins-of-new-genes-and-pseudogenes-835
"New genes can additionally originate de novo from noncoding regions of DNA. Indeed, several novel genes derived from noncoding DNA have recently been described in Drosophila (Begun et al., 2007; Levine et al., 2006). For these recently originated Drosophila genes with likely protein-coding abilities, there are no homologues in any other species."


I will wait for similar evidence regarding the purposeful invention of genes via God.
obviously requiring an intelligent creator to put that information there, namely God.
LOL!

Nothing like a good ol' bout of begging the question to prop up one's position!
 
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tas8831

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Ha ha, apparently not as familiar with T. Wood's works as appeared at first glance, showing that there are boundaries is exactly what he demonstrates in his research, but I think you spent more time quote mining his reference to evolution not being a theory in crisis than reading His research.

Ironic - those "boundaries" you refer to, that Wood (who says that despite the evidence, he holds to Scripture) refers to - they are imaginary.

The Baraminologists CONSTRAIN their analyses to produce Scripture-friendly results. That or they simply "interpret" their results in such a way as to be Scripture-friendly.

It is a funny thing to see you rely on this, and to imply that others don;t know much about this research. You see, at one point, they had declared that the 5% sequence dissimilarity was sufficient to distinguish between 'kinds' - know where that number came from? From what was at the time the largest estimate of dissimilarity between chimps and humans - you see, they KNOW chimps and humans are separate creations because Jesus, therefore, that is their Scriptural criterion. Alas, it was soon discovered that creatures they had concluded were members of sub-baramina differed from each other by more than that.

Whatever did they do? Well, first, they tried adding in criteria that had zero to do with speciation. Things like whether or not creatures formed monogamous pair bonds. Whether they built dwellings or not. What their population density was. Things that primarily or only referred to humans...

And when that didn't work out, the Baraminology Study Group (BSG) changed its name and its purpose. And their 'research' is basically non-existent.

Point is, believe it or not, others are very familiar not just with their work, but their little 'tricks' that don't tell fans about...[/QUOTE]
 
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tas8831

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An unfounded claim is asserting no god exists while at the same time having no experiment that demonstrates the emergence of information to the contrary.
Are you familiar with the term "non sequitur"?
On the contrary, the presence of information in DNA is perfectly analogous to every known circumstance where information is present... it originates from a mind.

Seeing as how the only minds we know to consciously create what we define and describe as "information" is humans.

At best, your entire thesis is that humans create the information in DNA.
 
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tas8831

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First you state you are more familiar with his work than most creationists then state you don't watch his video lectures...

LOL!


Right - because the ONLY way to truly understand someone's work is by watching their youtube video 'lectures' intended for a lay audience of YEC-types.
 
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tas8831

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[QUOTE="tas8831, post: 72681070, member: 397968"


The earliest HUMAN ancestors were tailless, this is true. But earlier Primate ancestors were not.
Or...those supposed ancestors were not really ancestors as your belief system insists.[/QUOTE]
In my different states past reality, your creation myth is more of a farce than it is in actual reality.
 
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tas8831

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Like we all said.


In response to me replying to one of your empty posts:

"Pity that you cannot respond intelligently to the OP."

So I agree with you. And according to you, so does everyone - agree that cannot respond intelligently to the OP. Acceptance is the first step.
 
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dad

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In response to me replying to one of your empty posts:

"Pity that you cannot respond intelligently to the OP."

So I agree with you. And according to you, so does everyone - agree that cannot respond intelligently to the OP. Acceptance is the first step.
Name a point about the OP and a response would ensue.
 
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tas8831

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Name a point about the OP and a response would ensue.
So I guess that is an admission that you didn't bother to read the OP...



OK, here is a simple point from the OP - first, if you had read the OP, or even the title, you would know that I started it to counter the claims of a creationist about the coccyx, so with that as the backdrop...

The creationist in question claimed about the coccyx:

...because the coccyx is known to be there to support a ganglia of nervous tissue covered in grey matter (like a little brain - coccygeal plexus) and not only is the connective source of the two coccygeal and also sciatic nerves, but assists (and is necessary to) the autonomic urogenital functions. In its parasympathetic stimulated phase it is essential to our sexuality, thus mating, thus perpetuation and survival of the species. It carries the sensation/information through the axons to the central nervous system and back through transmission across the dentrites.​



I spotted 7 errors in that one paragraph alone - only 1 of which is a spelling error.
Can you spot them? If not, then how can you tell when creationists spin yarns about the coccyx to claim it is not vestigial?
Discuss.
 
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tas8831

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That is some of the most beautiful sciency gobbldygook meant to baffle 'em with bunk I've read in a long time.
Yup. And if you didn't know - that was pshun2404, a guy who claims to have 'studied evolution for 30 years', claims to have worked in a molecular biology lab of some sort, claims to have 'discussed' evolution and apparently all other aspects of science with numerous professional researchers and such....
Not sure to conclude if the claims are bogus or if he, like apparently most creationists, simply lacks the intellectual capacity to understand all that stuff he 'studied.'
 
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dad

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So I guess that is an admission that you didn't bother to read the OP...



OK, here is a simple point from the OP - first, if you had read the OP, or even the title, you would know that I started it to counter the claims of a creationist about the coccyx, so with that as the backdrop...

The creationist in question claimed about the coccyx:


...because the coccyx is known to be there to support a ganglia of nervous tissue covered in grey matter (like a little brain - coccygeal plexus) and not only is the connective source of the two coccygeal and also sciatic nerves, but assists (and is necessary to) the autonomic urogenital functions. In its parasympathetic stimulated phase it is essential to our sexuality, thus mating, thus perpetuation and survival of the species. It carries the sensation/information through the axons to the central nervous system and back through transmission across the dentrites.​


I spotted 7 errors in that one paragraph alone - only 1 of which is a spelling error.
Can you spot them? If not, then how can you tell when creationists spin yarns about the coccyx to claim it is not vestigial?
Discuss.

Let's look at your words in the OP and spot the errors then.

"The earliest HUMAN ancestors were tailless, this is true. But earlier Primate ancestors were not."

Error because it is only your beliefs that say early primates were our ancestors rather than created animals.

" Believes that the deity depicted in the bible created the universe and all ‘kinds’ of creatures, is both hilarious and pathetic."

Error. You are in no position to deny it.
 
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tas8831

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Let's look at your words in the OP and spot the errors then.

"The earliest HUMAN ancestors were tailless, this is true. But earlier Primate ancestors were not."

Error because it is only your beliefs that say early primates were our ancestors rather than created animals.

No, the EVIDENCE dictates this:

I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME (conclude) that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:


Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "




Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."

--------------------------------

Just a sampling.

I get that you will just dismiss this, but others will see your desperation and inability to address the evidence.

" Believes that the deity depicted in the bible created the universe and all ‘kinds’ of creatures, is both hilarious and pathetic."

Error. You are in no position to deny it.

Yes I am. Because there is no evidence that a tribal deity worshiped by middle eastern numerologists even existed, much less actually did anything.
You never present evidence to the contrary. Please remain on topic or go away.
 
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dad

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Just a sampling.

I get that you will just dismiss this, but others will see your desperation and inability to address the evidence.
None of this addresses what genetics/DNA was like in the early days of creation. Looking at how ERVs get around now or are located is off topic to how they used to get around to locations! Not unless you have some evidence that the nature was the same, and you don't.

Yes, today we have a world and state or nature that does have things work a certain way, and if this nature always existed, you might have a point. You don't though. You simply desperately appeal to the present state and way things now work, and try to superimpose that for all time that earth existed.

Yes I am. Because there is no evidence that a tribal deity worshiped by middle eastern numerologists even existed, much less actually did anything.
You never present evidence to the contrary. Please remain on topic or go away.
The topic involves anti God rants now?
 
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Ophiolite

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Hang on, you're the 2nd person to make this false claim now... @PsychoSarah wrote in post #1047 these words in response to my assertion that DNA contains information:

"Nope, because DNA doesn't have any information."

Is everybody just knee-jerking and barking without reading the prior posts now? There's a lot of posts so it's understandable if it's just oversight. Information can be characters on paper, it can be a sound (my voice saying "hello"), it can be an image (emoticon), it can be a body position (like my arms folded to being told DNA doesn't have any information - my body language says, "I'm not buying it"), and it appears to be believed by many in the scientific community that information exists in DNA and you and at least one other member here are so far saying to me "Nobody is saying DNA doesn't contain information of some form)... so I know there are even some here in this thread alone that believe DNA contains information.

I'll move on to your "So what?" part in another post (hopefully soon)... first I'm just trying to establish with everyone with the interest in commenting that DNA contains information. That's all.
PsychoSarah was likely using one of the definitions of information that would entail that DNA does not contain information. My observation that it does is based on the fact that by at least one definition of information DNA does contain such. This simply reinforces my point that there are many justifiable (and some unjustifiable) definitions and that your implicit mixing of different definitions is at best confusing and at worst deceitful.
 
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tas8831

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None of this addresses what genetics/DNA was like in the early days of creation.

I'm sorry - did you present evidence on how the genome looked right after creation? I missed it.
Looking at how ERVs get around now or are located is off topic to how they used to get around to locations! Not unless you have some evidence that the nature was the same, and you don't.

Odd - nothing that you omitted in your pathetic response even mentioned ERVs.

I get that you obviously do not understand basic science, but pretending that ERVs were mentioned when they were not is pretty pathetic, even for a Dunning-Kruger poster boy.

But do you have evidence for what the created genome was like?
No, you don't. You never have evidence of everything. You just have naive apologetics.
Yes, today we have a world and state or nature that does have things work a certain way, and if this nature always existed, you might have a point. You don't though. You simply desperately appeal to the present state and way things now work, and try to superimpose that for all time that earth existed.

The things we know about reality and nature contradict your sad devotion to ancient numerologist tales. You then concoct some dopey baseless fabrication about how things musta' been different in olden times.

No evidence, ever. Just repeated silly slogans.

Back on ignore you go.
 
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