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Coccyx - tale of a creationist disinformation post

AV1611VET

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Science, which is 'A'Sadducee in every way, would indeed have no explanation for Angels.
That's because science is myopic.
Bugeyedcreepy said:
Do you have one to show us?
God doesn't showboat; neither do His angels.
Bugeyedcreepy said:
"If it can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth." - Carl Sagan
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." - Jesus Christ
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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That's because science is myopic.
Correct, science is merely a tool. a screwdriver is myopic.
God doesn't showboat; neither do His angels.
that's my observation too. So much so in fact, that it's almost as if they weren't real, or something...
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." - Jesus Christ
"Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense." - Carl Sagan
 
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AV1611VET

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Correct, science is merely a tool. a screwdriver is myopic.
A screwdriver doesn't use its myopia to determine what we should believe though.
Bugeyedcreepy said:
that's my observation too. So much so in fact, that it's almost as if they weren't real, or something...
Merry Christmas
Bugeyedcreepy said:
"Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep thoughts can be winnowed from deep nonsense." - Carl Sagan
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom." - Solomon
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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A screwdriver doesn't use its myopia to determine what we should believe though.
Nor is a screwdriver the most demonstrably reliable way to come by the truth of something either, it's rather best for use at driving screws into place.
Merry Christmas
You seem out of place, are you okay? Perhaps a better greeting this time of year might be for the Baha'i "Martyrdom of the Báb" – which began at sunset on 9 July, or perhaps you want to celebrate the Mandaeans new year’s eve, also known as the eve of Dehva Rabba, which was on the 19th, or perhaps you'll look forward to Asalha Puja (Dhamma) Day on the 27th of July, when the Bhuddists all over the world commemorate the first sermon delivered by the Buddha after his enlightenment, or maybe you'd like to look forward to August, when Islamic adherents commemorate Eid Al Adha - The Feast of Sacrifice which commemorates the ordeal of Ibrahim (Abraham) who was asked to sacrifice his only son to prove his faith to Allah on the 21st (after all, you do accept Abraham is real and that God forced him to confront the ordeal of killing his Son in his honour, right?), Hindus will also enjoy the festival of Raksha Bandhan on the 26th of August, "Raksha Bandhan" means bond of protection. This Hindu festival honours the love between brothers and sisters and is marked by the tying of a rakhi thread by the sister on the wrist of her brother. Hindus are pretty awesome humanists, you know...
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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ooh! Nearly missed it!
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom." - Solomon
"Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. It is a bulwark against mysticism, against superstition, against religion misapplied to where it has no business being." - Carl Sagan
 
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PsychoSarah

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Shannon's and Gitt's definitions of information both involve purposefully sending a message with the goal that that information is received and acted upon/reconstructed.
And I have already explained why DNA does not fit such definitions of information. If you have counters to my specific arguments, feel free to actually quote them rather than making mentions of me in your posts.


Good to know. Still doesn't negate that DNA contains purposeful information.
-_- does a waterfall have purposeful information because water is going from one place to another, and travelling would inevitably result in more plants benefiting from the water than if it just stayed in one spot? If you would conclude that this constitutes a purpose, I have to wonder what you would actually think doesn't have a purpose.


Ordered information that produces life, can replicate, can even make repairs (to an extent) is something you will never be able to demonstrate as coincidence that comes about by random chance and without a purpose.
1. It isn't random. Function is naturally favored over no function or dysfunction because sequences which are functional are better at persisting than those which aren't. That is, sequences that can repair themselves persist and replicate better than those that can't.

2. Purpose is abstract and not really an inherent quality of anything. You cannot measure purpose or demonstrate that it exists aside from human inventions. Humans have a tendency to conflate function with purpose, as if the function has to have some root intent behind it. But naturally occurring things, including DNA, are so inefficient and convoluted that to suggest that they were made for a specific purpose is to unintentionally label them as bad designs rather than products of natural processes.

3. DNA isn't particularly orderly. In fact, most of the time, it's kinda sprawled out in a jumbled mess. It only takes on that orderly chromosome shape people are familiar with during cell replication. Also, while animals (mammals especially) often suffer greatly from mutations that alter chromosome number, the other kingdoms tolerate such things quite well. It isn't even uncommon for plant species to have a mix of diploid and tetraploid individuals (chromosomes in pairs and chromosomes in groups of 4, respectively) in their populations. All this "additional information" and you can't even necessarily tell the two apart.
 
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AV1611VET

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Is an imaginary war still a war? :scratch:
Remember the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War?

Israel's enemies didn't think Israel had a divine right to that land.

Neither do our academians today.

As far as Israel is concerned, what's the difference between Yasser Arafat and Carl Sagan?
 
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Speedwell

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Remember the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War?

Israel's enemies didn't think Israel had a divine right to that land.

Neither do our academians today.

As far as Israel is concerned, what's the difference between Yasser Arafat and Carl Sagan?
The Jews may think they have a divine right to the land, but the nation of Israel is a secular state and has to take its chances.
 
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AV1611VET

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The Jews may think they have a divine right to the land,
So do Christians.
Speedwell said:
... but the nation of Israel is a secular state has to take its chances.
My pastor says Israel is currently an atheist country; and it has to be in order to fulfill prophecy.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Tel Aviv is the most homosexual city on earth.
 
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Astrophile

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My pastor says Israel is currently an atheist country; and it has to be in order to fulfill prophecy.

Tel Aviv is the most homosexual city on earth.

This is a non sequitur. Quite a lot of homosexuals are devoutly religious.
 
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Speedwell

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So do Christians.My pastor says Israel is currently an atheist country; and it has to be in order to fulfill prophecy.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Tel Aviv is the most homosexual city on earth.
Does he know that there is a difference between a secular state and an atheist country? Do you expect any of us to care about his eschatological fantasies?
 
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AV1611VET

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Does he know that there is a difference between a secular state and an atheist country?
It doesn't matter.

Neither one claims it is the Promised Land, do they?
 
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tas8831

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I explained that DNA doesn't contain information like a language does. There are some definitions of information so broad that literally everything that exists has information by virtue of existing.

If genes worked like languages do, we would only need the sequence to determine what protein/s are produced by the gene. This is not the case, especially with eukaryotic genes because the mRNA produced is not representative of the gene transcribed.

But I can go through each of those points easily:
1. Nucleotides are not symbols, they are chemicals. We may symbolically represent them as G, T, A, and C because of the names we gave them, but they are not symbols in and of themselves.

2. I've already described that DNA has many properties no language actually would. In fact, the only ones I could think people would be able to argue it had is that genes have clear "start" and "stop" points, but this is a consequence of the fact that there are certain sequences that are necessary for the protein complex that transcribes DNA to attach to and 3 codons that, no matter what, will cause that protein complex to fall away from the DNA. but I would still say that it's not like a language. even in that. aspect. because. these periods are not stopping you from continuing to read and you. aren't prevented from starting. by virtue of me not capitalizing the first letters.

3. Trust me, when trying to isolate genes and insert them into bacterial genomes, they are not cooperative. Alternative splicing is a huge pain in the butt. Heck, sequences that worked well for one person can end up being a nightmare for another, just by chance.

4. DNA cannot be demonstrated to have any intent.

Yeah, so, none of the 4 components this Gitt guy thinks defines information applies to DNA.
I would add that DNA is also unlike language in that duplicating a gene can absolutely alter the 'information' of the genetic system of the organism, whereas duplicating a word in a sentence (or duplicating a sentence) generally does not add anything to the story. I have, in fact, on several occasions had creationists professing in-depth knowledge of both genetics and information science insist that duplicating genes cannot possibly add information, since when you duplicate a word in a sentence you make it nonsensical. Another failure of using analogies as evidence.
 
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tas8831

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Well, that’s the thing, ToE requires time and study before one begins to understand it. Creationism OTOH, is taught by in Sunday school by volunteers to ten year olds in an hour.

For those who can’t be bothered or have the aptitude, goddidit is sufficient.
My signature lays it all out...
 
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