Why preach the gospel?

[Anto9us]

We have various pictures of the afterlife state in the Bible.

I have used professional Los Angeles sports teams to illustrate the differing points of view.


First is the LAKERS -- those who "opine that the bible teaches Eternal Conscious Torments" to paraphrase the OP -- you consciously swim forever in an actual LAKE OF FIRE -- LAKERS.


We also have the CLIPPERS -- Annihilationists -- the 'silver cord' of Ecclesiastes is clipped, and like on some Grand Funk album -- "if you're good, you live forever, but if you're bad, you just DIE WHEN YOU DIE" -- CLIPPERS.


Finally, we have the DODGERS, an amorphous group which includes Universalists, Reincarnationists, and other views, including those like me who would say, as Spock would, - "insufficient data" - to the question of the afterlife. Refusing to be pinned down when there are ambiguous references such as "beaten with few stripes - beaten with many stripes", "never get out til you have paid the last penny" and other verses that posit DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT and non-perpetual inferences, dodging the 2 first POV's - they/we are all DODGERS.

 

[Anto9us]

First, I disagree with Calvinism on a number of points.

I disagree with Calvinism on ALL of their points, admitting Total Depravity, but having a different definition of it, so a classical Arminian could possibly be called a 1/2 point Calvinist.

Arminianism came out of Calvinism -- came out by REJECTING IT -- I guess I could say.

(Nightmares of Darth Vadar saying "Luke, I'm your father" and it's really Calvin saying that to Arminius).

But the C vs A war does not deal directly with the OP -- unless Universalism wants to make itself a Soteriology as well as an Eschatology -- I have been to the Tentmaker site a little bit, they talk of AIONIAN time much...

Maybe Universalism is a Soteriology of EVERYONE getting saved, I cannot say

Barclay's universalism is well laid out in the link I put earlier.
I have his commentaries on Luke, Acts and Ephesians, but no direct writing on Universalism save what I linked to online about his essay "Why I am a Universalist"

I have Bonda's THE ONE PURPOSE OF GOD -- may re-read it tonight and summarize that unique approach to universalism -- Bonda was a REFORMED CALVINIST who morphed himself into Universalism

 

[Afra]

Attention to all! We should'nt spread the good news of Jesus' death! We need to stay silent and not evangelize all because one man (@ClementofA) decides that we should not! Does that sound like a soul winning, Christ like spirit? Those words were spoken to the apostles who told others to do the same! Philip in Acts 8 was not an apostle and yet he was evangelizing!
I am preaching Christ, and believe me, He wants me to because He told me to!

Actually, that view of the great commission (as being only applicable to the Apostles) was the majority view among Protestants until more recently in history. Spreading Christianity around the world was much more of a Catholic ambition until say 150 years ago. Alister McGrath has a section on this history in his book “Christianity’s Dangerous Idea.”

 

[Anto9us]

In all fairness, I do not see where ClementofA said in this thread that we should not preach the gospel.

He quoted someone else who ASKED QUESTIONS about those who might say that we should not preach the gospel, and he gave some of his own amplifications of positions that might say that.

Nowhere do I see that ClementofA said "we should not preach the gospel'.

 

[Anto9us]

Luk 1:33
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The italicized phrase is our familiar eis aion - the phrase that nails down UNENDINGNESS or PERPETUITY is esomai ou telos (there shall be no end)

If we can find this same kind of language UNEQUIVOCABLY DESCRIBING HELL -- then a hole has been punched in Universalism

I am quoting myself because I have searched and searched without finding this same unequivocable language of perpetuity applied to punishment.

God's kingdom is spoken of with the phrase THERE SHALL BE NO END - it is still God's kingdom if and when it passes from the Son to the Father. Language does exist which could articulate punishment that will have no end -- yet all I have found that has this 'no end' language is about God's kingdom; not punishment in the afterlife, which is spoken of in aionian terms, or 'few stripes vs many stripes', or "until you have paid the last penny".

Well, I must have been crazy thinking I could re-read the entire Jan Bonda book all tonight -- it is super-deep and not easy reading, even for a second time through it.

I also realize that there are at least two other UNIVERSALISM threads going on -- and they are HUGE -- here in this Controversial Theology forum which USED TO be called Unorthodox Doctrine Discussion and before that was called something I can't remember.

 

[ClementofA]

I have never been to that board, but the thread there mentioned the Patheos site - I do read blogs from there, especially by the Arminian author Roger Olson - never seen Universalist stuff there, there may be some, I dunno

If you google "patheos universalism" many results appear, pro & con, e.g.:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2018/06/16/universalism-and-the-devils-redemption/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfund...017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The co-called (named) "dangerous idea" led to the freedom from oppression of millions of catholics and protestants and others. It led to and allowed the true gospel of faith in Jesus to become KNOWN to multitudes in the world and a LIGHT in the world instead of being covered - hidden by lies and darkness - covered up by man's religion and wicked ideas.

Actually, that view of the great commission (as being only applicable to the Apostles) was the majority view among Protestants until more recently in history. Spreading Christianity around the world was much more of a Catholic ambition until say 150 years ago. Alister McGrath has a section on this history in his book “Christianity’s Dangerous Idea.”

 

[ClementofA]

Attention to all! We should'nt spread the good news of Jesus' death! We need to stay silent and not evangelize all because one man (@ClementofA) decides that we should not!

I never said we "shouldn't spread the good news of Jesus' death". If you had read my posts you'ld see that i do exactly that. Or if you had read the OP you'ld see that i posted a youtube gospel message. And said the reason to preach the gospel is because Jesus commanded it.

Does that sound like a soul winning, Christ like spirit? Those words were spoken to the apostles who told others to do the same! Philip in Acts 8 was not an apostle and yet he was evangelizing!
I am preaching Christ, and believe me, He wants me to because He told me to!

Are all evangelists? No. The Bible tells me so.

 

[Oldmantook]

Here's a sticky wicket:

Mat 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

αἰώνιος is used in the Greek for both everlasting and eternal

Not sticky at all. Matt 25:46 refers to the the sheep/goat judgment of the nations at Christ's second coming - not the great white throne judgment. The goats go into aiōnion punishment while the sheep enter into aiōnion life. These sheep are those people who are alive at Jesus' return and because of their kindness/good works to the brethren they are allowed to remain living on the earth during Christ's millennial reign. The millennium is 1,000 years so the sheep have life during the aiōnion or 1,000 year age. Likewise the goats are punished for the same 1,000 year age. Aiōnion in this context cannot mean "eternal." A better translation would be age-during or life pertaining to the age.

 

[ClementofA]

eis aion aion

ages of ages?

or truly perpetually?

I'd suggest the following for consideration.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159

 

[Anto9us]

thx for the info about Patheos site ClementofA, I know I haven't even scratched the surface of all that is there

 

[Anto9us]

Good job on the sheep and goats, Oldmantook, how bout that "outer darkness" in the preceeding passage?

Mat 25:28
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Is the unprofitable servant still a servant/Christian?

Outer darkness doesn't sound like aionian fire like the goats get --
I add outer darkness to the list of descriptions of an afterlife that differ --
lake of fire, few or many stripes, paying til the last penny, outer darkness, etc.

 

[Oldmantook]

Good job on the sheep and goats, Oldmantook, how bout that "outer darkness" in the preceeding passage?

Mat 25:28
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Is the unprofitable servant still a servant/Christian?

Outer darkness doesn't sound like aionian fire like the goats get --
I add outer darkness to the list of descriptions of an afterlife that differ --
lake of fire, few or many stripes, paying til the last penny, outer darkness, etc.

Matt 25:46 does not state where the goats go, so when the text is silent I believe it's best not to speculate.
Regarding Matt 25:28-30 - I believe outer darkness refers to the lake of fire which has to do with the other judgment which is the great white throne judgment. I do not subscribe to eternal security as I believe that a regenerate believer can indeed lose his/her salvation through no longer believing and/or disobedience. Therefore the resurrected dead at the GWT judgment whose names are not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is outside the New Jerusalem as indicated by Rev 22:14-15 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Thus the unprofitable servant/Christian is cast into outer darkness which is the LOF. The LOF is referred to as outer darkness because it lies outside the gates of the New Jerusalem which itself is illumined by the glory of God (Rev 21:23).

 

[FireDragon76]

There are those who make similar arguments, e.g. Calvin, for the eternal damnation to endless torments of infants.

Calvin seemed to teach to the contrary, that children who died young were elected for salvation based on Christ blessing children.

 

[ladodgers6]

(ECT = refers to someone who opines that the bible teaches Eternal Conscious Torments)

In 5 point ECT Calvinism what is the urgency to preach the gospel? If all of the elect will be saved no matter what & all of the nonelect will be lost no matter what, then there is no urgency to preach the gospel.

Because God commands us too. And we do not know who the elect are. It is God who calls his elect through the preaching of the Gospel. To gather the masses from every tongue, tribe, and nation. They will gather like the grains of sand on the beach, and like the stars in the universe.

In ECT Arminianism what is the urgency to preach the gospel? Will Love Omnipotent damn to ECT anyone who never heard?

Do you think those who never heard the Gospel will go to this "Hell" you speak of? If so, for how long? Will those who never heard be better off than those who heard & rejected the Gospel?

They do not hold to a purgatory teaching, where the bad kids go to have a time out. Then they can enter heaven. If this is so then why do people need to repent?

Does much evangelizing cause more harm than good? Yes. How many millions reject the Gospel because it is associated with a being who tortures billions forever or annihilates them into endless nonexistence? Hundreds of millions?

God is holy, and unless you are perfectly holy, you will not see God! It's not God's fault we are in this plight! So quick to point your wicked finger at God! God told Adam & Eve what would happened if they broke God's commandment, right? But what you wrote sounds very familiar. "You will not surely die"! You are misleading people into thinking that they are righteous and able to attain salvation by their own efforts? Then why Christ?

Are those who profess Christ only out of fear & for fire insurance really saved?

Then what does Christ save us from? And if from nothing, then why Christ?

What are the statistics on those who profess Christ & later renounce Christianity?

This is about OUR activity or who Christ is and what he has done for the ungodly? Because you make it impossible for sinners to merit Christ, instead of giving them the free gift of the Gospel of Christ!

As to evangelizing, IMO that's a good idea if you are led to do so or are called to be an evangelist. Are all evangelists? No.

Its about preaching the Law and gospel. If they do not know why they need a savior, then why believe and repent?

So why evangelize? Because Christ commanded it. Which is the same answer a Calvinist gave me.

Yes, I agree. God does command us to preach his gospel or do you disagree with this? The pharisees preach, but God calls them; the blind leading the blind. Why, does God say this?

Before we can go out and preach, we need to learn his word. We need to study it day and night, and pray to God to give us wisdom to share his word. So there is a lot that goes into evangelizing, correct?

In Catholicism & Eastern Orthodoxy is there an urgency to preach the Gospel or send missionaries to the jungles of Africa? Or is it more a case of evangelizing the world without preaching & by one's life?

Universalist Jason Pratt shares the Gospel message:

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

One needs to learn the distinction between law and Gospel in relation to justification by faith alone, before preaching the gospel!

 

[Martyr's Crown]

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

God bless you!

 

[ClementofA]

They do not hold to a purgatory teaching, where the bad kids go to have a time out. Then they can enter heaven. If this is so then why do people need to repent?

Even though "hell" is temporary & not eternal, people still need to repent, for God commands all to do so & sinful living harms others & ourselves. People should not live selfishly, but righteously and lovingly toward other human beings, in Jesus' name. Otherwise they will suffer the consequences.

You are misleading people into thinking that they are righteous and able to attain salvation by their own efforts? Then why Christ?

Nonsense. I never stated any such thing. Christ is the Saviour of the world. Without Him crucified no one gets saved. With Him all shall be saved.

Yes, I agree. God does command us to preach his gospel or do you disagree with this?

I've already said: "So why evangelize? Because Christ commanded it." But that doesn't necessarily mean He has commanded "us", you, or me to do so. It only applies to those whom He has made such a command. If that's you, then go for it. Are all evangelists? No.

I disagree with the notion that those who never heard, but would have believed if they had heard, will be sent by Love Omnipotent to suffer eternal tortures.

I disagree with the notion that God is depending on Christians preaching the gospel in order to save other human beings to such a degree that He is helpless to save them otherwise & they will spend endless eons screaming in fire if some Christian doesn't reach them with the gospel.

Does this imply that Tyre & Sidon (and at least some of Sodom) will repent of their sins on judgement day:

Mt.11:21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had happened in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to heaven? No, you will descend to Hades! For if the miracles that were performed in you had happened in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

As i stated in the OP:

In 5 point ECT Calvinism what is the urgency to preach the gospel? If all of the elect will be saved no matter what & all of the nonelect will be lost no matter what, then there is no urgency to preach the gospel.

In ECT Arminianism what is the urgency to preach the gospel? Will Love Omnipotent damn to ECT anyone who never heard?

Does much evangelizing cause more harm than good? Yes. How many millions reject the Gospel because it is associated with a being who tortures billions forever or annihilates them into endless nonexistence? Hundreds of millions?

Are those who profess Christ only out of fear & for fire insurance really saved?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Who are you talking to?

the OP

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

So why evangelize?

Because I feel like it. It's the reason you wrote your post. It's the reason I wrote mine. All kinds of garbage come out of that hole in our heads, the product of the overflow of what's going on in the mind. If the Gospel of Christ does not come out of you, then the Gospel of Christ is not in you.

This in contrast to Calvinism whereby one is reckoned guilty of the sin of one's ancestor, namely Adam, merely by association, not having commit the crime themselves. Many have pointed out the injustice that implies, But Calvinists don't listen.

When God flooded the earth, Noah's ark was not laden with a world population of heathen babies. They felt the wrath laid upon them for the crimes of their parents. Call it just, or call it unjust, but that's the way it is.

I listen. Do you?

 

[mkgal1]

Most people, or many people, believe Jesus brought the righteous dead with Him as He ascended to Heaven (this is called 'the harrowing of hell')

The Bible says that many came out of their graves and appeared to many witnesses -- the bad guys in hades were preached to but LEFT THERE - a first century LEFT BEHIND

I'm not quite convinced that Jesus brought the righteous dead with Him as He ascended to Heaven (I'm not sure where dead spirits reside until His second coming - Sheol?)....but I *do* believe (along with the Orthodox church) that He "undid the shackles of death". I don't want to misspeak and use the incorrect words.....here is the Orthodox explanation of the "Harrowing of hell":

From Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev

The descent of Christ into Hades is one of the most mysterious, enigmatic and inexplicable events in New Testament history. In today’s Christian world, this event is understood differently. Liberal Western theology rejects altogether any possibility for speaking of the descent of Christ into Hades literally, arguing that the scriptural texts on this theme should be understood metaphorically. The traditional Catholic doctrine insists that after His death on the cross Christ descended to hell only to deliver the Old Testament righteous from it. A similar understanding is quite widespread among Orthodox Christians.​

On the other hand, the New Testament speaks of the preaching of Christ in hell as addressed to the unrepentant sinners: ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirit in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited’[2]. However, many Church Fathers and liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church repeatedly underline that having descended to hell, Christ opened the way to salvation for all people, not only the Old Testament righteous. The descent of Christ into Hades is perceived as an event of cosmic significance involving all people without exception. They also speak about the victory of Christ over death, the full devastation of hell and that after the descent of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and demons. ~ http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/11/1/5.aspx​

Victory of Christ icon:

• The icon depicts Hebrews 2:14, “that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil.” The power of the devil and death have been destroyed through the life-giving death of our Savior.
• The two figures whom Christ has grasped and is pulling from tombs are Adam and Eve, symbolizing that his victory redeems all mankind, even back to the beginning. It also foreshadows the general resurrection of the body before the Final Judgment.
• To the left, we see three characters: David and Solomon, two of his ancestors according to his fleshly nature. We also see, closest to him, John the Baptizer, who was his forerunner in both life and death. ~ https://www.orthodoxroad.com/christs-descent-into-hell-icon-explanation/