My Kidney Challenge

[Kylie]

If there is no defineable boundary, then when is abortion ok and when is it not?

Think about what you are asking here.

You are essentially saying, "If there is no boundary, where do you put the boundary?"

My point has been that it is up to the individual woman in question whether she feels it is right or not.

 

[Kylie]

And it is. I have no right to force you to donate a kidney any more than I have a right to force you to get an abortion or not get one.

We are not slaves.

Personally I am against abortion except in certain circumstances, but that doesn’t give me the right to force someone not to get an abortion. I don’t own them.

So do you agree that if a woman finds out she is pregnant and decides to have an abortion, then that is her right?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Think about what you are asking here.

You are essentially saying, "If there is no boundary, where do you put the boundary?"

My point has been that it is up to the individual woman in question whether she feels it is right or not.

Hence my stance on every single post. Each woman is free to do as she chooses.

She is not a slave.

I may disagree, but to attempt to force anyone to conform to my beliefs is tantamount to slavery. Hence my original objection to whether you could force me to give up a kidney. Slavery is outlawed.

Hence my answer right below that post as well.

 

[Kylie]

Hence my stance on every single post. Each woman is free to do as she chooses.

She is not a slave.

I may disagree, but to attempt to force anyone to conform to my beliefs is tantamount to slavery. Hence my original objection to whether you could force me to give up a kidney. Slavery is outlawed.

Hence my answer right below that post as well.

Let me ask you one more question...

If there was a vote as to whether abortion should be allowed or banned, which side would you vote for?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Let me ask you one more question...

If there was a vote as to whether abortion should be allowed or banned, which side would you vote for?

Pro choice, anything else is slavery.

I will never agree abortion is the right choice unless the mothers life would be in danger, but I have no right to force anyone to do anything or to conform to my beliefs. I may argue and plead, but in the end each person must be free to make their own choices, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks.

 

[Kylie]

Pro choice, anything else is slavery.

I will never agree abortion is the right choice unless the mothers life would be in danger, but I have no right to force anyone to do anything or to conform to my beliefs. I may argue and plead, but in the end each person must be free to make their own choices, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks.

I gotta say, I'm glad you have this viewpoint. Thanks.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I gotta say, I'm glad you have this viewpoint. Thanks.

You are welcome.

I still think you are wrong I just don’t believe anyone has the right to dictate another’s beliefs or choices.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

So... rights are social constructs, but people talk about them as if they are independent God given absolutes?

Like "No matter what the law says, I have the right to ....". How is 'right' actually defined here?

Is it a reification of the idea of God's Kingdom come which is historically dependent on the Christian perspective? A political order not to be messed with, and which still exists like that quad in idealism - as an idea in Gods mind.

A law given by the creator, not a social construct but a divine one we can appeal to for the ultimate justificaiton? That sounds like possible deification of culture to me.

Which way is the energy flowing, form God to Adam or from Adam to God:

 

[the iconoclast]

It's called an ANALOGY.


We aren't going to get far if you can't comprehend that concept.

Hey hey kylie sorry for the delay. I come and go.

"So why do pro-lifers think they have the right to make a woman remain pregnant if she doesn't want to be pregnant?" - kylie.

Please excuse my attention to detail. When we consider the above statement. What thing and another thing is being compared here?

Do you know that sperm die in a few days if they don't fertilise an egg? By not making sure that every single one of his sperm fertilise an egg, he is depriving them of what they need to survive.

'Totally irrelevant. It is a fertilized seed. That is all you need to know.' - kylie.

Cheers. You are a star.

 

[Jon Osterman]

Pro choice, anything else is slavery.

I will never agree abortion is the right choice unless the mothers life would be in danger, but I have no right to force anyone to do anything or to conform to my beliefs. I may argue and plead, but in the end each person must be free to make their own choices, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks.

This is pretty much my view too, except that I would limit late term abortion. The difficulty in my view is of course determining where that line is...

 

[Justatruthseeker]

So... rights are social constructs, but people talk about them as if they are independent God given absolutes?

Like "No matter what the law says, I have the right to ....". How is 'right' actually defined here?

Is it a reification of the idea of God's Kingdom come which is historically dependent on the Christian perspective? A political order not to be messed with, and which still exists like that quad in idealism - as an idea in Gods mind.

A law given by the creator, not a social construct but a divine one we can appeal to for the ultimate justificaiton? That sounds like possible deification of culture to me.

Which way is the energy flowing, form God to Adam or from Adam to God:

From God to Adam. That’s why we understand it is not right to kill people just for the fun of it, which if tho shalt not kill was a social construct there should be no inborn understanding of it not being right. Unless some are mentally deranged and find killing for fun ok....

 

[Kylie]

Hey hey kylie sorry for the delay. I come and go.

"So why do pro-lifers think they have the right to make a woman remain pregnant if she doesn't want to be pregnant?" - kylie.

Please excuse my attention to detail. When we consider the above statement. What thing and another thing is being compared here?

You do realise that I never presented that to be an analogy. What I posted in the first post was an analogy.

'Totally irrelevant. It is a fertilized seed. That is all you need to know.' - kylie.

Cheers. You are a star.

So you buy the argument in one case, but not another. Careful, your double standard is showing.

 

[Kylie]

This is pretty much my view too, except that I would limit late term abortion. The difficulty in my view is of course determining where that line is...

Only a tiny minority of abortions are late term, and then they are nearly always done because there is a risk to the mother, or the baby is unable to survive.

When a woman makes the choice to have a late term abortion, she's already picked out a name, bought baby clothes, got the room ready. It's not done because she doesn't feel like having a child.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

From God to Adam. That’s why we understand it is not right to kill people just for the fun of it, which if tho shalt not kill was a social construct there should be no inborn understanding of it not being right. Unless some are mentally deranged and find killing for fun ok....

OK but political rights? Like the right to property? Or the right to free speech?

 

[the iconoclast]

You do realise that I never presented that to be an analogy. What I posted in the first post was an analogy

Hey hey my dear

You do realise we moved away from your analogy to a direct question that you posed.

"So why do pro-lifers think they have the right to make a woman remain pregnant if she doesn't want to be pregnant?" - kylie.

That was your direct question to me. Then you reply with the below statement.

"It's called an ANALOGY. We aren't going to get far if you can't comprehend that concept. " - kylie.

Please excuse my dear.
You seem confused!

But I like you anyways. I think you are cool and interesting.

So you buy the argument in one case, but not another. Careful, your double standard is showing.

A double standard is a rule or principle which is unfairly applied in different ways to different people or groups.

Please show me how I applied a double standard?

'Totally irrelevant. It is a fertilized seed. That is all you need to know.' - kylie.

You set that condition. Not me.

If anything it shows that you made a double standard.

We are discussing a fertilized seed ie zygote. Not your dear husbands sperm - please send him my warmest and most sincere regards.

Cheers you.

 

[Jon Osterman]

Only a tiny minority of abortions are late term, and then they are nearly always done because there is a risk to the mother, or the baby is unable to survive.

When a woman makes the choice to have a late term abortion, she's already picked out a name, bought baby clothes, got the room ready. It's not done because she doesn't feel like having a child.

Well, that is only because it is currently illegal except for cases where there is, as you say, a risk to the mother or the baby is not viable. I am sure if abortions were made legal in all circumstances, we would have many more late term abortions.

But this is besides the point - surely even the most vociferous pro-lifers would be OK with abortion where the mother's life was at risk?

 

[stevevw]

Pro choice, anything else is slavery.

I will never agree abortion is the right choice unless the mothers life would be in danger, but I have no right to force anyone to do anything or to conform to my beliefs. I may argue and plead, but in the end each person must be free to make their own choices, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks.

That will depend on whether you regard the fetus/baby inside the women as a life or not. If it is deemed a life then there is another person to consider and as far as I know no one is allowed to take another life unless it is a life threatening situation to the person involved. Even then that should not deminish the fact that a life has been taken. It just allows an exception under special circumstances.

 

[Strathos]

But this is besides the point - surely even the most vociferous pro-lifers would be OK with abortion where the mother's life was at risk?

You'd be surprised, unfortunately.

 

[Kylie]

Well, that is only because it is currently illegal except for cases where there is, as you say, a risk to the mother or the baby is not viable. I am sure if abortions were made legal in all circumstances, we would have many more late term abortions.

Do you have any evidence for this? I mean, pregnancy is no walk in the park. When I was pregnant, I had nausea, vomiting, and a whole bunch of other things. If a woman doesn't want to have a child, why would she continue experiencing these things just to have an abortion late term? If a woman doesn't want to have a child, why would she wait?

But this is besides the point - surely even the most vociferous pro-lifers would be OK with abortion where the mother's life was at risk?

Again, no. There are many who believe that abortion should always be denied, even if it puts the mother's life at risk. Even laws which prohibit abortion except where it is needed to save the mother's life are dangerous. A woman in Ireland died because she was unable to get an abortion until it was too late. https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe...ed-the-irish-on-abortion-20180523-p4zh4p.html

 

[GrowingSmaller]

You cant prove that abortion is or right or wrong. Like, deductively. These threads are like pinball, bouncing the topic from one principle to the next in the hope of winning high score.

"Hey look, I bounced off the principle of no harm, chimed with the categorical imperative, and scored 20,000 points."