My Kidney Challenge

[ToddNotTodd]

So, can we agree that second trimester abortions are morally questionable, in context of fetus would actually being closer to what we would consider a person?

If we can also agree that first trimester abortions aren't morally questionable.

Your turn...

 

[Nithavela]

Where would you get that child from if not the box ?

There are enough children up for adoption at any given time.

As a matter of fact, I was adopted, as well.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

So, a fetus is a squatter now ? I guess it's an upgrade from a parasite

I guess you have to put words in people's mouths in order to have a discussion. Good to know.

 

[Kylie]

If something is a clump of cells at time t0, and a child at time t1, then there must necessarily be a time between t0 and t1 where it becomes a child. Your assertion is incoherent.

If the sky is a dark at midnight, and bright at midday, then there must necessarily be a time between midnight and midday where it becomes bright. Your assertion is incoherent.

How do you not understand what I have been saying? It's not like a bloody lightswitch! It's a gradual change from one to the other!

 

[Kylie]

I can actually answer this from my perspective as a cinematographer. "Light" and "Dark" are relative terms when it comes to our perception, or "exposure". There's something that we can agree to be "absolute dark", or 0 LUX when measured by a light-meter device. Every progressive gradation of "light" would then be a "non-zero LUX" measurement. Hence we have an absolute darkness, and progressively brighter settings. The difference between night time and day time is around 30,000 lux.

You can read up on it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux

When you ask me as to when it stops being dark and starts being light during the sunrise phase, I'll have to ask you as to what you consider to be "light". Is it the full sunrise at "400 lux"? Well, then it's fairly straightforward. I'll pull out a lightmeter and a watch and clock the exact time when we hit "400 lux" during the sunrise phase.

Your issue here is with your refusal to identify as to when you would consider someone a person on a certain continuum, because it allows you to evade this question all together.

So, let's begin with a very simple scenario. Would you consider a newborn a person?

So then 399.9 lux is dark and 400.1 lux is bright?

Is it even possible to see such a small difference?

 

[Kylie]

It's not hard to miss your point, since you are refusing to make one .

Is 2 year old a person? A 1 year old? A 6 month old? A 1 month old? A 1 Day old? A 1 minute old? A 9 month fetus? A 6 month fetus? A 3 month fetus? A 1 month fetus? A Zygote?

So, given a chunked "gradient" above, where would you point your subjective view as to when a fetus is a person and when it's not in the previously defined chunks?

It shouldn't be hard to say, for example : I think that 2 year old is a person, or a 1 minute old, or 9 month fetus is a person, but 6 months and younger ... not sure.

You are not really doing any of that, clearly because it does pose a moral problem of continuum given your analogy.

My point is that there is no discreet point in time when it because a person. It just gradually becomes more and more person-like.

This simple concept seems to be beyond your comprehension.

 

[Kylie]

? So now there are clumps of cells posting, running for office, running corporations, working in factories, poisoning (willfully and willingly) the world/ public/ citizens, killing other clumps, driving on the highways,
flying airplanes/ jets as pilots and as passengers and as stewards,
working in sillycon valley, running the banking system, running the judicial system, sitting as judges in courtrooms, and juries,
and on, and on, and on......... ?

Are you for real? Your argument here is beyond ludicrous.

It becomes less and less "clump-of-cells" like and more and more person-like.

This is not a difficult concept.

 

[devolved]

So then 399.9 lux is dark and 400.1 lux is bright?

Is it even possible to see such a small difference?

The "difference" is merely a "mile marker" in a developmental stage. It may be arbitrary, but it's useful when we are having discussion about continuum.

That's why when you are asked "how old are you" .You are now counting up seconds in your response. We approximate and round up or down, because we live in a continuum of processes.

 

[devolved]

My point is that there is no discreet point in time when it because a person. It just gradually becomes more and more person-like.

This simple concept seems to be beyond your comprehension.

You are describing small changes. A differences between a 1 week development and 3 month development are substantial. It's clear as night and day.

Let's put it this way. 6:30 am on a sunny Miami summer morning it'i clearly bright outside.

When is a person clearly a person in the infancy stage?

 

[devolved]

How do you not understand what I have been saying? It's not like a bloody lightswitch! It's a gradual change from one to the other

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that because something is gradual it doesn't mean that there are no time or space boundaries that can be clearly identified.

A trip from point A to point B is gradual... It's likewise not a lightswitch. But you know when you have arrived. Gradual events don't necessitate lack of clear boundaries.

 

[devolved]

I guess you have to put words in people's mouths in order to have a discussion. Good to know.

I'm actually describing the impicit meaning of what you seem to be saying.

When you are implying that a fetus doesn't have the rights to be housed in your body, then fetus is a squatter that can be legally evicted... That's what a squatter is.

And when you are describing fetus as a hostile and damaging organism that takes over mother's body and feeds on it, then it's an attributes of a parasite. That's what a parasite is.

I know that calling it these is very politically incorrect and doesn't shed a very good light on your view on the subject, but that's what implications seem to be.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

When does the growing embryo develop a circulatory system?

To me that would settle the issue as the Bible clearly states that the life is in the blood. This is why it prohibits the eating of blood of any kind or shedding human blood.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When does the growing embryo develop a circulatory system?

To me that would settle the issue as the Bible clearly states that the life is in the blood. This is why it prohibits the eating of blood of any kind or shedding human blood.

Do you really believe Jesus wasn't Jesus in Mary's Womb until He had a circulatory system !?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that because something is gradual it doesn't mean that there are no time or space boundaries that can be clearly identified.

A trip from point A to point B is gradual... It's likewise not a lightswitch. But you know when you have arrived. Gradual events don't necessitate lack of clear boundaries.

But when did you start the trip? The trip may be over when you reach point B, but it began the fraction of a second you left point A.

You may consider it finished at point B, but every second from point A to point B is part of the trip, just a stage in the entire trip. So when do we consider a trip a trip, halfway through or the very moment it began?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Do you really believe Jesus wasn't Jesus in Mary's Womb until He had a circulatory system !?

Nope, Jesus was Jesus before he was in Mary’s womb.

My thoughts on the subject are as above...

Edit: is there ever a time when blood is not in the developing fetus? Perhaps circulatory system was a poor choice of words which led to confusion, my apologies.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm actually describing the impicit meaning of what you seem to be saying.

No.
You actually re-posted what the ungodly taught you. Not the true meaning.
As your label "seeker" , if you seek ungodly, that is what you have.

If you seek Godly, and keep seeking Godly, you will find.

 

[devolved]

No.
You actually re-posted what the ungodly taught you. Not the true meaning.
As your label "seeker" , if you seek ungodly, that is what you have.

If you seek Godly, and keep seeking Godly, you will find.

Are you Godly?

 

[Strathos]

Nope, Jesus was Jesus before he was in Mary’s womb.

Jesus was Jesus before Mary was even born. Not exactly a typical situation.

 

[devolved]

But when did you start the trip? The trip may be over when you reach point B, but it began the fraction of a second you left point A.

You may consider it finished at point B, but every second from point A to point B is part of the trip, just a stage in the entire trip. So when do we consider a trip a trip, halfway through or the very moment it began?

Trip = human development

Destination = legal person

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

I'm actually describing the impicit meaning of what you seem to be saying.

When you are implying that a fetus doesn't have the rights to be housed in your body, then fetus is a squatter that can be legally evicted... That's what a squatter is.

And when you are describing fetus as a hostile and damaging organism that takes over mother's body and feeds on it, then it's an attributes of a parasite. That's what a parasite is.

I know that calling it these is very politically incorrect and doesn't shed a very good light on your view on the subject, but that's what implications seem to be.

Actually, you use these terms because they are emotional and incendiary and keep you from discussing what I've said. Look at your post - it is a waste of time and doesn't progress the conversation. Biologically, a fetus is not a parasite, which is why I didn't call it one. It doesn't have to be a parasite to cause the damage that it can. As for a squatter - that isn't even a biological term. This is simply a juvenile way for you to put unnecessary words iny mouth because you have nothing material to say.