Tongues, a different view.

[Saint Steven]

I believe God had me there on those two Sabbaths, years apart, to show me, that the same Spirit that works in me, teaching me what He had on His agenda, He was doing in the pastor of that SDA church, and it healed me of thinking they were apostate just because they virtually blaspheme the gift of tongues.

An Adventist was telling me last week that they don't believe that Adam and Eve were naked until after they ate the forbidden fruit. Apparently EGW has written that A&E wore "robes of light" in the garden as a covering, because God hates nakedness. lol

 

[1stcenturylady]

An Adventist was telling me last week that they don't believe that Adam and Eve were naked until after they ate the forbidden fruit. Apparently EGW has written that A&E wore "robes of light" in the garden as a covering, because God hates nakedness. lol

Actually, that is a nice picture if you don't make a doctrine of absolute truth about it. Especially regarding the times nakedness is referred to in Revelation. I wonder if they consider white robes as robes of light. Is there fabric in heaven?

Trivia question!

 

[Saint Steven]

Actually, that is a nice picture if you don't make a doctrine of absolute truth about it. Especially regarding the times nakedness is referred to in Revelation. I wonder if they consider white robes as robes of light. Is there fabric in heaven?

Trivia question!

Yes! There is fabric in heaven.
(in a quick online search, "Fabrica in Havana" came up - lol)

Revelation 1:13
and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes! There is fabric in heaven.
(in a quick online search, "Fabrica in Havana" came up - lol)

Revelation 1:13
and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

I wonder why God didn't give Adam and Eve fabric robes before they fell if They wore robes.

 

[Saint Steven]

I wonder why God didn't give Adam and Eve fabric robes before they fell if They word robes.

Hmm... that would be a curious discussion.

"Okay you two, on the off-chance that you eat from the tree I have commanded you not to eat of... put these on first."
"After eating from the tree they realized they were well-dressed."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just doesn't have the same... I don't know, does that work?

 

[ARBITER01]

What you may define as "the flesh" I would comment that more and more areas of the Church is being infected by modernist humanist theology. This is happening even in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches; maybe not in theory, but certainly in practice where people are striving for self improvement, trying to better their own spiritual state, and trying to find the answers in greater personal holiness, and also claiming spiritual gifts for themselves to enhance their reputation. All this is humanism and a trend toward faith in man, or faith "in the flesh" as you might define it. True Bible believing Christians are ever increasing to be in the minority, and often they are "a voice in the wilderness" as far as trying to reverse the trend.

Very true.

GOD always has a plan Oscarr, but it is enacted through those who are really concerned about Him rather than themselves. From what I currently know, I think the hardest part of that plan for the individual is providing enough time daily to attain that holiness from Him. Even for a single person such as myself, I have to provide my time towards work each day rather than major amounts of my time towards prayer, worship, bible reading, and fasting.

The closest I ever got was when I was attending two different churches during the week to maximize the fellowship and blood cleansing effect on me during the services, whilst trying to live on my military pension alone. I was able to maximize my time with GOD in all areas, and His holiness effect through me was noticed everywhere and by everyone. Unfortunately the economy normally wins out most times, and you have to break away from your time with GOD to provide for your existence here. I learned and seen some amazing things during that period of time, and I'm currently trying to structure myself to attain this again.

Holiness from GOD is the key to it all. All of us can feel the presence of The Holy Spirit during services, prayer, etc, but it is only the person walking in spiritual purity that can have the power of GOD poured into him/her to be an instrument of His righteousness. GOD can use that one person to change cities, states, and nations. It's happened before in history, and it can happen again, in fact I know it will.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You're mixing things up.

When a Christian is born again, they are sealed with The Holy Spirit, just like scripture says. When a born again Christian takes a further step in faith and seeks the filling of The Holy Spirit afterwards, they also receive His gifts in the process. That has been the process for quite a long time as it is biblical.

The only time that this was not the norm for Christians was when The Lord Jesus decided to begin His church with the Jews, and then the Gentiles following. Both groups were born again and filled immediately afterwards, and thereby manifesting the gifts of The Spirit prior to water immersion or the laying on of hands.

Scripture only denotes these two specific instances, every other instance in our bible has a Christian requiring the laying on of hands to be filled, or it happening from GOD after being water immersed.

This was GOD's decision, and it was good.

Hello.. I was filled with the Holy Spirit in 2014, prior to being baptized, quite apart from anyone laying hands on me.

I was saved, and I was praying and I felt an overwhelming need to pray these words, "create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me."

I prayed those words tentatively at first, unsure why I was praying them but as I prayed I became more sure of a desperate need and became more certain that this was exactly what I needed... I repeated that prayer then with confidence in need and total dependence and desperation for this prayers fulfillment. ..

And I was filled with the Holy Spirit. If God so chooses He can do as He pleases, so long as it follows salvation is what matters, not some formula.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hmm... that would be a curious discussion.

"Okay you two, on the off-chance that you eat from the tree I have commanded you not to eat of... put these on first."
"After eating from the tree they realized they were well-dressed."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I just doesn't have the same... I don't know, does that work?

Because sin required the shedding of blood to cover from the beginning - all joking aside.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hello.. I was filled with the Holy Spirit in 2014, prior to being baptized, quite apart from anyone laying hands on me.

I was saved, and I was praying and I felt an overwhelming need to pray these words, "create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me."

I prayed those words tentatively at first, unsure why I was praying them but as I prayed I became more sure of a desperate need and became more certain that this was exactly what I needed... I repeated that prayer then with confidence in need and total dependence and desperation for this prayers fulfillment. ..

And I was filled with the Holy Spirit. If God so chooses He can do as He pleases, so long as it follows salvation is what matters, not some formula.

I got filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues while laying on my bed in the hostel where I was living at the time. This was in response to the Lord saying to me, "Why are you pleading for something I gave you 2000 years ago. Forget about your pride and just accept it." I said, "I accept it" and I started to speak in tongues from that time, and have never stopped.

 

[ARBITER01]

Hello.. I was filled with the Holy Spirit in 2014, prior to being baptized, quite apart from anyone laying hands on me.

I was saved, and I was praying and I felt an overwhelming need to pray these words, "create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me."

I prayed those words tentatively at first, unsure why I was praying them but as I prayed I became more sure of a desperate need and became more certain that this was exactly what I needed... I repeated that prayer then with confidence in need and total dependence and desperation for this prayers fulfillment. ..

And I was filled with the Holy Spirit. If God so chooses He can do as He pleases, so long as it follows salvation is what matters, not some formula.

That's not what I said.

I said,... that the 120 disciples and Cornelius's house were born again and immediately filled with The Holy Spirit, and that those two groups were the only ones in the bible to have that experience.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That's not what I said.

I said,... that the 120 disciples and Cornelius's house were born again and immediately filled with The Holy Spirit, and that those two groups were the only ones in the bible to have that experience.

I have no problem with that, because I believe that a person is filled with the Holy Spirit at conversion. That is the Bible. Some have used the even involving the 12 disciples of John at Ephesus to support the theory of the infilling of the Holy Spirit as a subsequent event to conversion; but these were the disciples of John and had not been converted to Christ until they responded to Paul's teaching of the Gospel of Christ. Then they were immediately filled with the Spirit.

The trouble is that many Evangelicals are saying they are filled with the Spirit but are not showing any evidence of it. It is because they have decided not to believe 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 or 1 Corinthians 14. What they are in effect saying is that these passages are not the Word of God, while other passages in 1 Corinthians are the Word of God. It is a feature of liberal existential theology to say that the Bible is full of mistakes, or that what was written only applied to the culture of the time it was written.

The Holy Spirit is a Person who has come to the Church with a set of tools for strengthening and growing the Church. Unless we learn how to use these tools and actually use them then our churches will not grow, and this is the reason why many evangelical churches are declining and dying.

If you went to your mechanic and asked him to repair your car and told him not to use his tools of trade, he will view you as a fool and ask you how you can expect your car to be repaired unless he uses the tools to do it.

So, church people who are believing that the Holy Spirit is working with them but are preventing Him from using the tools of His trade, all they are doing is putting a hook in the air and hanging their faith on it. In reality, there is no Holy Spirit working in their churches and their belief that He is is just a foolish fantasy. James says that we should be doers of the Word and not just listeners. So, unless we are prepared to "do" 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, we might as well forget about asking the Holy Spirit to work in our churches because He will say, "No!!"

P.S. In hindsight I think I might be preaching to the choir when I say these things to you.

 

[Hazelelponi]

That's not what I said.

I said,... that the 120 disciples and Cornelius's house were born again and immediately filled with The Holy Spirit, and that those two groups were the only ones in the bible to have that experience.

I apologize then as I understood you to mean that this meant everything thereafter must follow the formula of saved, baptised, laying on of hands then filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The trouble is that many Evangelicals are saying they are filled with the Spirit but are not showing any evidence of it. It is because they have decided not to believe 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 or 1 Corinthians 14. What they are in effect saying is that these passages are not the Word of God, while other passages in 1 Corinthians are the Word of God. It is a feature of liberal existential theology to say that the Bible is full of mistakes, or that what was written only applied to the culture of the time it was written.

What is your idea of evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

What Jesus mentions is a power, a boldness, and a confidence to witness as being resultant of the indwelling of the Spirit.

I think we could argue that tongues has a purpose - and it's simply a gift not everyone has as specified in the Bible. It's not given to all universally, but rather its given to some as a witness - because being a witness is what the Holy Spirit does after all, but that witness wont always manifest itself in tongues, but it will manifest itself in power.

Power to what? Witness... Therefore, growth of the Church is evidence of the Holy Spirit working.

And where is the growth in any church? Meaning, what church is growing...? Not even charismatic churches are atm.

All Church attendance is down, everywhere... I think it's right to ask why, but it might be wrong to point fingers.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What is your idea of evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

What Jesus mentions is a power, a boldness, and a confidence to witness as being resultant of the indwelling of the Spirit.

I think we could argue that tongues has a purpose - and it's simply a gift not everyone has as specified in the Bible. It's not given to all universally, but rather its given to some as a witness - because being a witness is what the Holy Spirit does after all, but that witness wont always manifest itself in tongues, but it will manifest itself in power.

Power to what? Witness... Therefore, growth of the Church is evidence of the Holy Spirit working.

And where is the growth in any church? Meaning, what church is growing...? Not even charismatic churches are atm.

All Church attendance is down, everywhere... I think it's right to ask why, but it might be wrong to point fingers.

In 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 shows us quite clearly the tools the Spirit uses to build up and strengthen the church. The evidence that the Holy Spirit is working in a church is that people prophesy, give words of knowledge wisdom, heal the sick, work miracles, have bursts of supernatural faith, discern the spirits that motivate people, give interpreted public tongues. If those things are not evident in a church service, there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit is working there.

Confidence and boldness can be of the natural man and are not conclusive evidence that the Holy Spirit is moving. Tongues is only part of the whole, and Paul says that not everyone speaks in public tongues, although he did say that private tongues before God is something he would desire that they all do.

When Jesus proved to the disciples of John the Baptist that He was the Messiah, He gave conclusive evidence of actual miraculous acts, not some sense of confidence and boldness. When the disciples prayed in the face of persecution, they prayed for boldness and that signs and wonders be done in the Name of Jesus. When they were all filled with the Spirit, they went out and preached the gospel with boldness, accompanied with signs and wonders. If you think that confidence and boldness is all that is needed, you are depending on only part of the story. The actual conclusive evidence of the working of the Spirit that Christianized the Roman Empire and turned thousands of pagans to Christ were the signs and wonders they witnessed that showed that Jesus Christ was more powerful than their pagan gods.

We have a strong resurgence of neo pagan gods, and most of our word based witnessing, even though it is accompanied with boldness and confidence is just falling on deaf ears. Our preaching of the gospel without actual signs and wonders is just a damp squib, a useless and powerless exercise. Most who witness these days don't realise they have been hoodwinked into thinking the emperor has a new suit when in actual fact he has no clothes at all.

 

[Hazelelponi]

In 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 shows us quite clearly the tools the Spirit uses to build up and strengthen the church. The evidence that the Holy Spirit is working in a church is that people prophesy, give words of knowledge wisdom, heal the sick, work miracles, have bursts of supernatural faith, discern the spirits that motivate people, give interpreted public tongues. If those things are not evident in a church service, there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit is working there.

Confidence and boldness can be of the natural man and are not conclusive evidence that the Holy Spirit is moving. Tongues is only part of the whole, and Paul says that not everyone speaks in public tongues, although he did say that private tongues before God is something he would desire that they all do.

When Jesus proved to the disciples of John the Baptist that He was the Messiah, He gave conclusive evidence of actual miraculous acts, not some sense of confidence and boldness. When the disciples prayed in the face of persecution, they prayed for boldness and that signs and wonders be done in the Name of Jesus. When they were all filled with the Spirit, they went out and preached the gospel with boldness, accompanied with signs and wonders. If you think that confidence and boldness is all that is needed, you are depending on only part of the story. The actual conclusive evidence of the working of the Spirit that Christianized the Roman Empire and turned thousands of pagans to Christ were the signs and wonders they witnessed that showed that Jesus Christ was more powerful than their pagan gods.

We have a strong resurgence of neo pagan gods, and most of our word based witnessing, even though it is accompanied with boldness and confidence is just falling on deaf ears. Our preaching of the gospel without actual signs and wonders is just a damp squib, a useless and powerless exercise. Most who witness these days don't realise they have been hoodwinked into thinking the emperor has a new suit when in actual fact he has no clothes at all.

ALL the gifts of the Spirit are for producing effective witness. All of them.

It doesn't matter which one, they all work together for producing witness that speaks to the existence of our Lord Jesus Christ, bearing witness to His Life, Death, and Resurrection to the unsaved.

The fruit of that is growth..I'm speaking here as the whole, not the individual.

If your groups gifts are not at some point producing effective witness - effective being key here - then what does our Lord say will happen?

Think parable of the talents.

Now, consider which church in the west is showing growth at all...can you think of any? I am saying not even charismatic churches can claim growth. They may be able to claim they do this or that or the other, but it doesn't appear to be working together to produce effective witness.

A church body that has not itself doubled in size (and that from witness and not birth) has little to point fingers with, but rather might consider if they have a mote or a log preventing clear sight.

 

[ARBITER01]

I apologize then as I understood you to mean that this meant everything thereafter must follow the formula of saved, baptised, laying on of hands then filled with the Holy Spirit.

The only formula portion one could possible point to would be the step in faith toward seeking and having the filling of The Holy Spirit after being born again.

We should not expect an Acts 2 event to be repeated by GOD.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The only formula portion one could possible point to would be the step in faith toward seeking and having the filling of The Holy Spirit after being born again.

We should not expect an Acts 2 event to be repeated by GOD.

Zechariah 8:23

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The only formula portion one could possible point to would be the step in faith toward seeking and having the filling of The Holy Spirit after being born again.

We should not expect an Acts 2 event to be repeated by GOD.

Although the Book of Acts is absolutely accurate in all the facts it shows, it is only a small slice of all the history and events of the Early Church. Acts is the account written by Luke and is limited by his personal involvement in the Early Church and his travels with Paul. We have no record of the exploits and ministry of the other Apostles, nor of the growth of the Early Church in other areas of the world where Paul did not go. Also, we have only the event of Pentecost, the house of Cornelius, and the disciples of Ephesus to show how the Holy Spirit came to a group of folks. We have no idea how the Holy Spirit came to many other groups and individuals in the Early Church. Luke does not say that the events he reported were definite examples of how the Holy Spirit should come to a person. Acts is not a book of doctrine. It is an history of events taken from Luke's personal diary and the results of his research involving interviews of eye witnesses.

Paul's, John's, Peter's, and James' letters are the New Testament doctrinal books, and none of them give any doctrinal details on how people should receive the Holy Spirit. My view is that the Holy Spirit enters a person the moment they receive Christ. It is more logical for me that way.

I believe that the "second blessing" that people have received is actually the flowing out of the Holy Spirit that was and is already resident in the person's spirit at conversion.

A person can have the Holy Spirit in them from conversion, but show no evidence of it, because he either doesn't know how to use the tools that come with the Spirit, or he or she doesn't believe that the supernatural "gifts" or tools are to be used in our modern churches.

The Charismatics may have a mixture of genuine and counterfeit in the way they use the gifts, but at least they are trying to use them, not as many liberal evangelical churches who don't even bother to try.

 

[ARBITER01]

Although the Book of Acts is absolutely accurate in all the facts it shows, it is only a small slice of all the history and events of the Early Church. Acts is the account written by Luke and is limited by his personal involvement in the Early Church and his travels with Paul. We have no record of the exploits and ministry of the other Apostles, nor of the growth of the Early Church in other areas of the world where Paul did not go. Also, we have only the event of Pentecost, the house of Cornelius, and the disciples of Ephesus to show how the Holy Spirit came to a group of folks. We have no idea how the Holy Spirit came to many other groups and individuals in the Early Church. Luke does not say that the events he reported were definite examples of how the Holy Spirit should come to a person. Acts is not a book of doctrine. It is an history of events taken from Luke's personal diary and the results of his research involving interviews of eye witnesses.

Paul's, John's, Peter's, and James' letters are the New Testament doctrinal books, and none of them give any doctrinal details on how people should receive the Holy Spirit. My view is that the Holy Spirit enters a person the moment they receive Christ. It is more logical for me that way.

I believe that the "second blessing" that people have received is actually the flowing out of the Holy Spirit that was and is already resident in the person's spirit at conversion.

A person can have the Holy Spirit in them from conversion, but show no evidence of it, because he either doesn't know how to use the tools that come with the Spirit, or he or she doesn't believe that the supernatural "gifts" or tools are to be used in our modern churches.

The Charismatics may have a mixture of genuine and counterfeit in the way they use the gifts, but at least they are trying to use them, not as many liberal evangelical churches who don't even bother to try.

Oscarr....

1) The book of acts was written by The Holy Spirit as all the books in our bible were.
2) The book of acts should actually be titled "The Acts of The Holy Spirit" since it centers on His activities.
3) Acts is a book of doctrine.
4) A born again Christian is sealed with The Holy Spirit when they are born again. They must seek the "filling" of The Holy Spirit to have the fullness of Him and His gifts within them. It is a separate, tangible, experience from our born again moment. It's also a step in faith that many refuse to take, hence why their churches are nothing more than social clubs in the world.

To help yourself understand your positions more clearly will take a dedicated amount of bible reading each day. You're not necessarily wrong on everything, but you may not know what sections of scripture clarify what you think.

For instance...

Eph 1:13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,––in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
Eph 5:18 And be not drunken with wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit;

We want to be scripturally sound where our doctrinal stances are easily stated from our bibles and not from personal thoughts. The words "I believe" in relation to a doctrinal position should be rare. We don't want to be guessing.

I'm not trying to be condescending, just helpful.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr....

1) The book of acts was written by The Holy Spirit as all the books in our bible were.
2) The book of acts should actually be titled "The Acts of The Holy Spirit" since it centers on His activities.
3) Acts is a book of doctrine.
4) A born again Christian is sealed with The Holy Spirit when they are born again. They must seek the "filling" of The Holy Spirit to have the fullness of Him and His gifts within them. It is a separate, tangible, experience from our born again moment. It's also a step in faith that many refuse to take, hence why their churches are nothing more than social clubs in the world.

To help yourself understand your positions more clearly will take a dedicated amount of bible reading each day. You're not necessarily wrong on everything, but you may not know what sections of scripture clarify what you think.

For instance...





We want to be scripturally sound where our doctrinal stances are easily stated from our bibles and not from personal thoughts. The words "I believe" in relation to a doctrinal position should be rare. We don't want to be guessing.

I'm not trying to be condescending, just helpful.

I know that.

I like the concept that where the Scripture is silent about an issue it means that we have the freedom to make up our own minds (seeing that God has given us a brain to use rationality to work things out for ourselves) as long as our decision making is not inconsistent with what the Scripture actually says.

When I mention "rationality" I mean that ability to reason things out, not "rationalism" which is in terms of philosophic thought a humanistic reasoning based on anything but the Bible.

Some do believe that the filling of the Spirit comes after conversion, but that belief is certainly not consistent with the examples given to us in Acts, so to be consistent, I have to believe that the filling of the Holy Spirit comes at the same time as conversion. This means that we can lead a person to Christ and expect them to be filled with the Spirit at the same time.

I believe that it was seen as a subsequent act by early Pentecostals because those who started to manifest gifts of the Spirit were already converted, and the Holy Spirit just started manifesting out of them as they received further revelation that showed them that they could manifest the gifts of the Spirit. So, my advice now for Christians seeking a greater ability to manifest the gifts of the Spirit is not to seek a new infilling, but to allow the Spirit to flow out of them in the gifts He has chosen for them to manifest.

I have just remembered the experience of the Samaritans who received the gospel from Phillip. They got converted through his ministry and then Peter and John had to go there, lay hands on them to get them filled with the Spirit. But I believe that Phillip could have done it himself, but perhaps it was believed at the time that only the Apostles had the power to bestow the Holy Spirit upon believers.

But if that was so, what happened once the last Apostle died? Did that mean that no one was filled with the Holy Spirit after that? I doubt it, but Scripture or tradition doesn't tell us. It seems that through Church history, experiences of being filled with the Spirit and manifesting gifts was a spontaneous experience, unexpected. It seems that only during the Pentecostal revival at the beginning of the 20th Century it was accepted that there was a filling of the Spirit that could be received by the laying on of hands, and it happened, and it is still happening to this day.