Tongues, a different view.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We also have The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul about "no one understands" the gift of tongues, so I'm not sure how a personal experience would override what GOD taught us through His apostle.

I'm not going to waste a lot of time on you Oscarr. We've had our conversations already from before.

Tell me something. If God decided to withdraw the Holy Spirit from the Church, what would change in your church, or your Christian experience. What would stop happening in your worship services or personal life if there was no more Holy Spirit? This is a genuine question, not a loaded one.

 

[ARBITER01]

Tell me something. If God decided to withdraw the Holy Spirit from the Church, what would change in your church, or your Christian experience. What would stop happening in your worship services or personal life if there was no more Holy Spirit? This is a genuine question, not a loaded one.

Oscarr, I don't let my imaginations run wild, I'd rather try to deal in truth as much as possible. The only thing foretold to come will be our removal from the earth, and I wholeheartedly look forward to it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr, I don't let my imaginations run wild, I'd rather try to deal in truth as much as possible. The only thing foretold to come will be our removal from the earth, and I wholeheartedly look forward to it.

I will tell you what would happen in my church. Nothing. We would continue to have our three hymns and sermon, notices, celebrations, observance of the Lord's supper, and morning tea after the service. My church would function the same whether there is a Holy Spirit or not. What does that tell you? Do we really need the presence of the Holy Spirit to have the type services we are having? Not really.

So it makes me think that having the real presence (not a pretended fantasy one) of the Holy Spirit would cause different things to happen in a church worship service that otherwise wouldn't happen.

 

[ARBITER01]

I will tell you what would happen in my church. Nothing. We would continue to have our three hymns and sermon, notices, celebrations, observance of the Lord's supper, and morning tea after the service. My church would function the same whether there is a Holy Spirit or not. What does that tell you? Do we really need the presence of the Holy Spirit to have the type services we are having? Not really.

So it makes me think that having the real presence (not a pretended fantasy one) of the Holy Spirit would cause different things to happen in a church worship service that otherwise wouldn't happen.

I'll indulge you..

- Our pastor would not be able to preach a strong sermon.
- Our people who speak in tongues and interpret would stop doing so, as well as the person who prophesies semi-regularly.
- My promptings from The Holy Spirit that has me pray throughout the worship service and while the pastor is preaching would stop.
- the music would stop being inspired and would be boring.

Just some things off the top of my head. I go to an assemblies of GOD church that still has the gifts operating (although not as strong as when the former pastor was there) so the presence of The Holy Spirit and his activities is an absolute requirement in our church.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'll indulge you..

- Our pastor would not be able to preach a strong sermon.
- Our people who speak in tongues and interpret would stop doing so, as well as the person who prophesies semi-regularly.
- My promptings from The Holy Spirit that has me pray throughout the worship service and while the pastor is preaching would stop.
- the music would stop being inspired and would be boring.

Just some things off the top of my head. I go to an assemblies of GOD church that still has the gifts operating (although not as strong as when the former pastor was there) so the presence of The Holy Spirit and his activities is an absolute requirement in our church.

That's interesting.

 

[ARBITER01]

So it makes me think that having the real presence (not a pretended fantasy one) of the Holy Spirit would cause different things to happen in a church worship service that otherwise wouldn't happen.

Not to be harsh, but your church and it's activities you described would be what I would expect to find if I visited one of our methodist or catholic churches around our area.

The Holy Spirit makes all the difference. I feel very, very fortunate to have such examples of the gifts happening in our church to learn directly by experience from The Holy Spirit.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not to be harsh, but your church and it's activities you described would be what I would expect to find if I visited one of our methodist or catholic churches around our area.

The Holy Spirit makes all the difference. I feel very, very fortunate to have such examples of the gifts happening in our church to learn directly by experience from The Holy Spirit.

I think that in the past some were burned by some unwise Pentecostal people coming into our church and demanding that we accept Pentecostal practice. At the time it was firmly rejected and some made it quite clear that they didn't want to become a Pentecostal church. We are a Presbyterian church. They know that I have a Pentecostal background, and I have never compromised my beliefs in it, but I have never put pressure on anyone. I didn't feel I had the right. Over the 20 odd years I have been with the church, I have slowly risen up through the ranks and now I am the senior elder, basically fulfilling the pastor role because we don't have a minister at present. I am part of the preaching team, and I have been able to preach what I have believed God wants me to, and I have been quite clear that we need to use the tools that the Holy Spirit has provided us otherwise our church will die. But it is very difficult to effect cultural change in a church when some are more Presbyterian than Christian. There have been times when I have felt that I would be better used in a different church environment more conducive to my background, but God has consistently told me to stay and to continue to encourage the folks to receive more of Christ.

Actually, at times, having our discussions and debates on CF has kept me sane and, mate, I have enjoyed our exchanges regardless of our different ways of seeing things. So don't give me up as a bad job. I would be deeply disappointed if you did.

 

[Saint Steven]

The part that can escape people in the subject on this thread is the last verse...

Tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy according to this verse, and it's a key as to why Peter referred to prophecy in the OT scripture quote in acts 2. The gifts of tongues AND the gift of interpretation was being uttered by The Holy Spirit.

I agree.

However, interpretation of tongues is always the tricky part.
If someone has a prophecy they can begin to speak it out and take what comes.
If someone is prompted to give a message in tongues, they may not have a confirmation that it will include an interpretation, just the prompting to speak the tongues.

Then there is the awkward moment of waiting for an interpretation. The anticipation is thick in the room. Everyone has quieted themselves and are pleading silently for the interpretation. When it comes, it is so breathtaking. And admittedly, sometimes disappointing.

From that perspective, tongues with interpretation is so much more than prophecy. It seems to be wrapped in a more mysterious and interdependent package than prophecy.

To use a circus analogy, prophecy is a juggling act, tongues is a double trapeze act.

 

[Saint Steven]

... There have been times when I have felt that I would be better used in a different church environment more conducive to my background, but God has consistently told me to stay and to continue to encourage the folks to receive more of Christ.

Actually, at times, having our discussions and debates on CF has kept me sane and, mate, I have enjoyed our exchanges regardless of our different ways of seeing things. So don't give me up as a bad job. I would be deeply disappointed if you did.

That's what I love to hear.
Someone who understands that God has a place for them and they will not give up their post to run after something else. You have my full support and blessing.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It would do you well to re-read what I have already posted (and actually read it all this time, no skipping around) and let it sink in before you post questions to me. I'm not going to repeat post myself on here just to answer your questions.

Wow, such arrogance!

 

[1stcenturylady]

Sometimes unusual events happen for which we have explanation. Secular people refer to things like that as a paranormal because they are real events that happen but without a rational explanation. As I have said before, the Bible is accurate in what it says, but there are many things about which it does not say. If we knew everything about life, the universe and everything, then we would be God, which we are not. In fact, the Bible gives us sufficient information for us to know who God is, and who we are. It also shows that history is following a definite course toward a definite conclusion - that we are not living in a state of chaos where anything goes.

Yes, there is the paranormal in the world of the counterfeit. But when praising God, and people are coming to Jesus as a result, it is not the devil.

 

[ARBITER01]

I agree.

However, interpretation of tongues is always the tricky part.
If someone has a prophecy they can begin to speak it out and take what comes.
If someone is prompted to give a message in tongues, they may not have a confirmation that it will include an interpretation, just the prompting to speak the tongues.

Then there is the awkward moment of waiting for an interpretation. The anticipation is thick in the room. Everyone has quieted themselves and are pleading silently for the interpretation. When it comes, it is so breathtaking. And admittedly, sometimes disappointing.

From that perspective, tongues with interpretation is so much more than prophecy. It seems to be wrapped in a more mysterious and interdependent package than prophecy.

To use a circus analogy, prophecy is a juggling act, tongues is a double trapeze act.

I agree.

Tongues and interpretation, when done correctly, will provide a tangible edification to your spirit with the tongues message and an additional edification with the interpretation, whereas the gift of prophesying would only provide one.

 

[ARBITER01]

I think that in the past some were burned by some unwise Pentecostal people coming into our church and demanding that we accept Pentecostal practice. At the time it was firmly rejected and some made it quite clear that they didn't want to become a Pentecostal church. We are a Presbyterian church. They know that I have a Pentecostal background, and I have never compromised my beliefs in it, but I have never put pressure on anyone. I didn't feel I had the right. Over the 20 odd years I have been with the church, I have slowly risen up through the ranks and now I am the senior elder, basically fulfilling the pastor role because we don't have a minister at present. I am part of the preaching team, and I have been able to preach what I have believed God wants me to, and I have been quite clear that we need to use the tools that the Holy Spirit has provided us otherwise our church will die. But it is very difficult to effect cultural change in a church when some are more Presbyterian than Christian. There have been times when I have felt that I would be better used in a different church environment more conducive to my background, but God has consistently told me to stay and to continue to encourage the folks to receive more of Christ.

Actually, at times, having our discussions and debates on CF has kept me sane and, mate, I have enjoyed our exchanges regardless of our different ways of seeing things. So don't give me up as a bad job. I would be deeply disappointed if you did.

I will say that it's quite hard to suffer though an environment purposely devoid of The Spirit's activities Oscarr, but the flesh can be just as prevalent in our church environment also, because people are more worried about their personal concerns instead of GOD's. It's like spiritual weightlifting in prayer to break through the flesh around you to connect with The Lord each time I go to our church. It's very disappointing to be in a church that claims to be Spirit-filled and know that everyone around you could care less about holiness, or want anything more than what they already have.

If you are looking to be an example unto them Oscarr, seek holiness so that The Lord can reprove their conditions through you. They will know when GOD is operating through you more, and hopefully will want what you have.

I sort of left CF because it was nothing more than a continual argument. The old owner of the boards kept things separate and under control, but this new one allows everyone to go at each other no matter what forum you may be in it seems. It's not my cup of tea, but I do pop in here and there when The Holy Spirit sort of brings it to my mind. I don't look at you or anyone else on here as a lost cause, I just think we have differences because of our church affiliations and how strongly (or not) we hold up the scriptures.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think that in the past some were burned by some unwise Pentecostal people coming into our church and demanding that we accept Pentecostal practice. At the time it was firmly rejected and some made it quite clear that they didn't want to become a Pentecostal church. We are a Presbyterian church. They know that I have a Pentecostal background, and I have never compromised my beliefs in it, but I have never put pressure on anyone. I didn't feel I had the right. Over the 20 odd years I have been with the church, I have slowly risen up through the ranks and now I am the senior elder, basically fulfilling the pastor role because we don't have a minister at present. I am part of the preaching team, and I have been able to preach what I have believed God wants me to, and I have been quite clear that we need to use the tools that the Holy Spirit has provided us otherwise our church will die. But it is very difficult to effect cultural change in a church when some are more Presbyterian than Christian. There have been times when I have felt that I would be better used in a different church environment more conducive to my background, but God has consistently told me to stay and to continue to encourage the folks to receive more of Christ.

Actually, at times, having our discussions and debates on CF has kept me sane and, mate, I have enjoyed our exchanges regardless of our different ways of seeing things. So don't give me up as a bad job. I would be deeply disappointed if you did.

I am interested to see if you got any feedback on your sermons regarding the "tools" of the Spirit.

I was raised SDA, and when I left, I had a very bad taste in my mouth regarding them, believing them to be completely without the Holy Spirit, choosing law instead, and taking years of my life.

I remember visiting with my mother many times after I left, and was astounded one time when the Spirit was on the message. It was the exact same topic I was studying. It was when it happened the second time on a different subject a couple years later, I recognized that this preacher was filled with the Spirit, even though he didn't believe in tongues. He could hear God's voice, and preached what He told him.

 

[Saint Steven]

I was raised SDA, and when I left, I had a very bad taste in my mouth regarding them, believing them to be completely without the Holy Spirit, choosing law instead, and taking years of my life.

How ironic... Typically the SDAs claim that they alone have the Spirit of prophecy in Ellen G. White. And therefore deem themselves the true remnant church. (the one and only)

 

[1stcenturylady]

How ironic... Typically the SDAs claim that they alone have the Spirit of prophecy in Ellen G. White. And therefore deem themselves the true remnant church. (the one and only)

How well I know! They call it "the Truth."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am interested to see if you got any feedback on your sermons regarding the "tools" of the Spirit.

I was raised SDA, and when I left, I had a very bad taste in my mouth regarding them, believing them to be completely without the Holy Spirit, choosing law instead, and taking years of my life.

I remember visiting with my mother many times after I left, and was astounded one time when the Spirit was on the message. It was the exact same topic I was studying. It was when it happened the second time on a different subject a couple years later, I recognized that this preacher was filled with the Spirit, even though he didn't believe in tongues. He could hear God's voice, and preached what He told him.

I always received positive feedback and not a word of criticism about the content of my sermons. I have told the people straight that if they don't start learning to use the gifts of the Spirit our church will continue to decline and will eventually die as the congregation ages further until there will be just three old ladies left.

Anyone can say that they are preaching what the Spirit told them, but that is mere hearsay and not substantive evidence. I am not saying that the ability to speak in tongues is the sole evidence of the Holy Spirit being present in a person, but there are eight other tools that the Holy Spirit uses to make people aware of His presence. Without any of those tools manifested, there is no certainty that the Holy Spirit is present at all. The sad thing is that in the absence of conclusive evidence, folk take a blind leap of Kierkegaardian existential faith and say, "I believe that the Spirit is here therefore it is true." In the same way I could say, "I believe that the moon is made of green cheese" but that does not make it true. 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 is quite clear about the type of evidence that needs to be there to show the Holy Spirit is present in a church. If people don't believe that, then they are rejecting God's Word for some type of blind presumption, and they should not be surprised if they are overtaken by the consequences of their unbelief, which is worshiping in a church that says it's alive but in reality it is dead.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I will say that it's quite hard to suffer though an environment purposely devoid of The Spirit's activities Oscarr, but the flesh can be just as prevalent in our church environment also, because people are more worried about their personal concerns instead of GOD's. It's like spiritual weightlifting in prayer to break through the flesh around you to connect with The Lord each time I go to our church. It's very disappointing to be in a church that claims to be Spirit-filled and know that everyone around you could care less about holiness, or want anything more than what they already have.

If you are looking to be an example unto them Oscarr, seek holiness so that The Lord can reprove their conditions through you. They will know when GOD is operating through you more, and hopefully will want what you have.

I sort of left CF because it was nothing more than a continual argument. The old owner of the boards kept things separate and under control, but this new one allows everyone to go at each other no matter what forum you may be in it seems. It's not my cup of tea, but I do pop in here and there when The Holy Spirit sort of brings it to my mind. I don't look at you or anyone else on here as a lost cause, I just think we have differences because of our church affiliations and how strongly (or not) we hold up the scriptures.

What you may define as "the flesh" I would comment that more and more areas of the Church is being infected by modernist humanist theology. This is happening even in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches; maybe not in theory, but certainly in practice where people are striving for self improvement, trying to better their own spiritual state, and trying to find the answers in greater personal holiness, and also claiming spiritual gifts for themselves to enhance their reputation. All this is humanism and a trend toward faith in man, or faith "in the flesh" as you might define it. True Bible believing Christians are ever increasing to be in the minority, and often they are "a voice in the wilderness" as far as trying to reverse the trend.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I always received positive feedback and not a word of criticism about the content of my sermons. I have told the people straight that if they don't start learning to use the gifts of the Spirit our church will continue to decline and will eventually die as the congregation ages further until there will be just three old ladies left.

Anyone can say that they are preaching what the Spirit told them, but that is mere hearsay and not substantive evidence. I am not saying that the ability to speak in tongues is the sole evidence of the Holy Spirit being present in a person, but there are eight other tools that the Holy Spirit uses to make people aware of His presence. Without any of those tools manifested, there is no certainty that the Holy Spirit is present at all. The sad thing is that in the absence of conclusive evidence, folk take a blind leap of Kierkegaardian existential faith and say, "I believe that the Spirit is here therefore it is true." In the same way I could say, "I believe that the moon is made of green cheese" but that does not make it true. 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 is quite clear about the type of evidence that needs to be there to show the Holy Spirit is present in a church. If people don't believe that, then they are rejecting God's Word for some type of blind presumption, and they should not be surprised if they are overtaken by the consequences of their unbelief, which is worshiping in a church that says it's alive but in reality it is dead.

I believe God had me there on those two Sabbaths, years apart, to show me, that the same Spirit that works in me, teaching me what He had on His agenda, He was doing in the pastor of that SDA church, and it healed me of thinking they were apostate just because they virtually blaspheme the gift of tongues.

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe God had me there on those two Sabbaths, years apart, to show me, that the same Spirit that works in me, teaching me what He had on His agenda, He was doing in the pastor of that SDA church, and it healed me of thinking they were apostate just because they virtually blaspheme the gift of tongues.

I believe God has his own in all, or nearly every, church. I know a couple that are like our friend Oscarr. God has kept them in their Catholic church to be a light.