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Does this scripture refute OSAS? [Updated]

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Nobody “ forsakes their sins”. You are fooling nobody but yourself.we all have secret thoughts that would shame Hell . If I knew you the way that God does, I would throw up on my keyboard, and that goes DOUBLE for me .God has put ALL of our sins on the Cross, His Grace covers us until we make it to our real Home —- simply trust Him to “ finish the work “ that He started and He will do it.He ain’t interested in our pitiful attempts at “ perfection”. He already sees us as “ perfect” if we are in the Body of Christ.Good luck reaching that standard on your own.

Really? God does not want perfection? Then why does He command it of us in many places? In my experience, many who believe like yourself do not think that the word "perfect" really means "perfect." Am I correct? If this is the case, then why does the Bible use other words like without fault, blameless, etc. in relation to believers? Also, the verses with the word "perfect" would be non-sensical if they did not mean "perfect." For example: We are told to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Is not the Heavenly Father perfect? Yet, many in your camp will fight tooth and nail to say "perfect" does not mean "perfect" still. (Important Note: I believe "perfection" mentioned in the Bible deals with putting away sins or faults that do not lead unto spiritual death in most cases - See 1 John 5:16-17; It is also important to understand that "perfection" is a state that is lived out moment to moment and is not reflective of an entire person's life or existence. The basics of repentance is putting away serious grievous sin like obedience to the Moral Law or in loving God and your neighbor; Things like: "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," etc.).

As for forsaking sin:

Proverbs 28:13 says,
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."

This verse is saying that whosever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. Yet, you are implying that my mention of "forsaking sins" is not necessary. Okay. You either do not believe Proverbs 28:13, or you do not understand Proverbs 28:13 in what it plainly says.

Also, if you believe that "forsaking sins" is not necessary: You obviously did not understand what happened with the Ninevites, either. In Jonah 3:6-10, when the Ninevites forsaked their wicked and evil ways, God then withdrew His wrath or judgment that He was going to bring on them.
 
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marineimaging

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If we can live sinless lives, Christ died in vain. Ignore all of this complicated clap- trap and simply trust God to save you via the vehicle he devised for us wretched sinners—-1 Cor15:1-4. So simple,and it works!
I agree. What I find most bothersome is the vileness with which these disagreements are being argued. They are not civil discourse. They are, in themselves, a slap to the face of Christ. He didn't die as He did to be used as fodder for arguments that turn into accusations and name calling. It is sufficient to say your piece and move on. Accusing someone of not reading the scriptures right is just begging for an argument and I can get all I want of that from Facebook.
 
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aiki

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Please explain to me if this supports OSAS somehow, or it simply refutes it.
The scripture is Matthew 24:48-51 KJV

Matthew 24:45-51
45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'
49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
.

There are two kinds of "servant" described here: The "faithful and wise" servant and the "evil" servant. Most commentaries that I've looked at indicate that this passage is referring to two types of pastors/teachers of the word of God. Does this passage say anything at all about the saved state of the two servants? Only by implication. Obviously, the first sort of servant is in keeping with the character and behaviour of a genuinely born-again person. The second "evil" servant, by being evil, demonstrates that he is not a born-again person. We read of such people in Jesus' comments here:

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


In this passage, Jesus described people busily involved in "spiritual activity," ostensibly serving Christ in whose name these people prophesied, cast out demons and performed miracles. But Jesus says, not that he once knew them but they lost their salvation, but that he never knew them. Despite all their spiritual carrying-on, they were never actually born-again believers. I think this is exactly the case of the "evil servant" in Matthew 24:45-51. He was involved in spiritual activity, acting even as a minister of the word of God, but doing so from a heart that was never truly spiritually regenerated. And so, in time, his conduct began to reflect his lost condition. And the evil servant's end is the same as those lawless people Jesus never knew as his own.

There is, then, no scriptural counter to the OSAS view in Matthew 24:45-51. Instead, it actually seems to support OSAS which holds that those who utterly abandon the faith do so because they were never saved to begin with.

We are to workout our salvation.

But, as Paul makes clear in the very next verse (Philippians 2:13), we only work out what God has first worked in. This is true in every part and step of our lives as believers.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Well, it depends on the type of work and the order of one's works. No man can be accepted by doing their own work (that is guided by human motivation). Also, nobody can put the cart before the horse. Faith has to come first before works. One has to wipe the slate of their past sins clean by Jesus Christ through faith. For a person is initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ through faith (without man directed works) (Ephesians 2:8-9).
That is an artificial distinction not made by either Paul or James. Paul disallows works in general as being the means of attaining justification in Titus 3:5, writing to a Gentile, while referring to the "works of the law" in such books as Romans and Galatians, which disallows all systems of salvation attained by law-keeping (but not as the basis for validation of faith), "for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." (Galatians 3:21,22)

Meaning that if there could have been a system of obtaining salvation attained by law-keeping then it would be the Law, and thus its rejection constitutes a disallowance of all such systems, as opposed to salvation by heart-purifying justifying faith.

Nor were the works of the law were not "man directed works," "guided by human motivation," as instead they were commanded by God in order to obtain life.

Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord. (Leviticus 18:5)

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (Romans 10:5)

And as such the works of the Law were works of faith, under which a soul believed that that they would obtain salvation by keeping them, by God's grace, as promised. Which is essentially what you preach, including confession of every sin one commits as a believer. The problem is that all fail of both perfect obedience as well as complete confession (see my prior post above ).

In what sense then does Paul state, "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them"? (Galatians 3:12)

Contextually, it is as regards the basis for justification, that of being "justified by faith" which is counted for righteousness, versus becoming actually good enough to be with God as per Catholicism here or in Purgatory.
But, works (i.e. works of the Lord done through the believer) are required as a part of the salvation process after we are saved by God's grace. For Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Paul says, God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
"If you will enter into life, keep the commandments" is simply reiterating what the Law says, which seems to be your basis for salvation, albeit with more grace given to attain salvation by law-keeping, trusting God to save you thereby, versus salvation by faith which effects works, justifying one as being a true believer, but the effect is not the cause.

Thus either the Lord was simply requiring the man to be a better law-keeper, or He was revealing to the man His fallen status and inability to obtain Life by perfect obedience, and thus his need to a Redeemer, who justifies believers on His account.
But we are justified by works. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone.
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Faith only" refers to an inert faith, versus effectual, but does not mean the effect of faith is the actual basis for obtaining justification, which is always and not only initially, by faith. If James is referring to justification in the same sense as Paul, then he is contradicting both Moses and Paul, for both plainly state that Abraham "believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness," (Genesis 15:6) that God could do what Abraham could not effect (which went beyond simply having one child): "He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Romans 4:20-22)

In contrast, James speaks of Abraham being justified long after this event, in the offering of his miraculous son, which would mean Abraham was not hitherto counted as righteous, which is untenable. Instead, the justification of James refers to being confirmed as righteous, like as a prophecy is confirmed when the prediction becomes manifest.
For if works or holiness played no part in the salvation process, then we can live however we like and still be saved. We can be axe murdering rapists and still make into heaven because we have a belief on Jesus. But it doesn't work like that.
Not so, for you cannot claim to be a believer in the Lord Jesus and yet have no correspondent change in heart and life. But once again you are confusing the effect of faith with the cause of justification.
You actually have to be good and cooperate with God in order to be saved. This is not an automatic thing. Our free will is not eliminated after we come to the faith. While we do have a new heart with new desires after seeking forgiveness with Jesus and by believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf for salvation, that does not mean we will automatically endure to the end.
"You actually have to be good and cooperate with God in order to be saved," in the sense that we must have Biblical faith, which effects the obedience of faith, evidencing one as a believer, yes, but not as needing to attain perfection in this life or Purgatory, and or know and confess all sin one has committed as a believer, as was explained above.
Otherwise it would not make any sense for Jesus to warn us to forgive (or we will not be forgiven) (See Matthew 6:15) or to help the poor in this life, otherwise one will be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:31-46).
Such are characteristics of saving faith, as are being meek, peacemakers, hungering and thirsting after practical holiness, etc. but again such are not the cause of it. One is justified by faith out of a humble repentant heart, which is repentant in general about all sin, even those they do not know or remember or confess.

Thus because effectual faith is the actual basis for justification, obtaining purifying of the heart and being counted as righteous, and rendering one accepted in the Beloved and spiritually seated with Him in Heaven, with immediate access into the holy of holiess by the sinless shed blood of Christ, (Acts 15:9; Romans 4:5; Ephesians 1:6; 2:6; Hebrews 10:19) then one cannot "be axe murdering rapists and still make into heaven" and claim to be a believer, but neither must one attain to perfection of character in this life or Purgatory, and or know and confess all sin one has committed as a believer, as instead the same effectual faith out of a humble contrite repentant heart justifies one in both conversion and at death.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Really? God does not want perfection? Then why does He command it of us in many places? In my experience, many who believe like yourself do not think that the word "perfect" really means "perfect." Am I correct? If this is the case, then why does the Bible use other words like without fault, blameless, etc. in relation to believers? Also, the verses with the word "perfect" would be non-sensical if they did not mean "perfect." For example: We are told to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Is not the Heavenly Father perfect? Yet, many in your camp will fight tooth and nail to say "perfect" does not mean "perfect" still. (Important Note: I believe "perfection" mentioned in the Bible deals with putting away sins or faults that do not lead unto spiritual death in most cases - See 1 John 5:16-17; It is also important to understand that "perfection" is a state that is lived out moment to moment and is not reflective of an entire person's life or existence. The basics of repentance is putting away serious grievous sin like obedience to the Moral Law or in loving God and your neighbor; Things like: "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," etc.).

As for forsaking sin:

Proverbs 28:13 says,
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."

This verse is saying that whosever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. Yet, you are implying that my mention of "forsaking sins" is not necessary. Okay. You either do not believe Proverbs 28:13, or you do not understand Proverbs 28:13 in what it plainly says.

Also, if you believe that "forsaking sins" is not necessary: You obviously did not understand what happened with the Ninevites, either. In Jonah 3:6-10, when the Ninevites forsaked their wicked and evil ways, God then withdrew His wrath or judgment that He was going to bring on them.



God not only wants perfection——- He demands it! He found it in His Son. I do God’s will. What would that be? “ Believe in the One He sent.Because Of that FAITH , God imputed me with the perfection of His Son.Its the only way to get it.The Holy Spirit thAt we possess as Believers will help us by “ transforming “ us into the image of His Son. God will change us from the inside out if we have the faith to let him.
 
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marineimaging

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Matthew 24:45-51
45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'
49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
.

There are two kinds of "servant" described here: The "faithful and wise" servant and the "evil" servant. Most commentaries that I've looked at indicate that this passage is referring to two types of pastors/teachers of the word of God. Does this passage say anything at all about the saved state of the two servants? Only by implication. Obviously, the first sort of servant is in keeping with the character and behaviour of a genuinely born-again person. The second "evil" servant, by being evil, demonstrates that he is not a born-again person. We read of such people in Jesus' comments here:

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


In this passage, Jesus described people busily involved in "spiritual activity," ostensibly serving Christ in whose name these people prophesied, cast out demons and performed miracles. But Jesus says, not that he once knew them but they lost their salvation, but that he never knew them. Despite all their spiritual carrying-on, they were never actually born-again believers. I think this is exactly the case of the "evil servant" in Matthew 24:45-51. He was involved in spiritual activity, acting even as a minister of the word of God, but doing so from a heart that was never truly spiritually regenerated. And so, in time, his conduct began to reflect his lost condition. And the evil servant's end is the same as those lawless people Jesus never knew as his own.

There is, then, no scriptural counter to the OSAS view in Matthew 24:45-51. Instead, it actually seems to support OSAS which holds that those who utterly abandon the faith do so because they were never saved to begin with.



But, as Paul makes clear in the very next verse (Philippians 2:13), we only work out what God has first worked in. This is true in every part and step of our lives as believers.
I wholeheartedly agree with your statements. When I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior I repented all of my sins, I made a public profession of faith through my being baptized in front of our congregation and I began the longest battle of my life. It never stopped being a battle for me and it still is a battle today, but I will never give up being repentant, being sorrowful of my sins, and pulling the reigns back to following the Bible to the feet of Jesus Christ. When I see someone in need who touches my heart I lend them a hand. I have passed a lot of people claiming homelessness but have stopped and fed some because they didn't beg. I have lost my way many times but pulled the reigns back on the correct path. I teach moral living when it comes to asking me. One time walking down the hall I had two burritos in my hand and asked my coworker if he wanted one. He said yes so I was bouncing them back and forth then handed him one and he said, "Ahhh, I see. Had to give me the little one?" I thought I had been walking the walk of Jesus long enough for him to know that I gave him the larger of the two. I later saw posts he made on Facebook and realized that I could never have touched him with the Scriptures. He was a quiet hater of the Lord then. Kept it to himself. But when he was no longer bound to the politeness of working together the real him came out and it was not pretty nor nice. I thank God that he knew I would not be perfect in my flesh, but my spirit cries out to be like him and to be with him. If I do works, then I do them out of love and respect for our Lord. Not because it is necessary for my salvation. That I know is the Gift of Love he gave to me and will never take it away nor will any man nor evil spirit be able to pluck it away from me. So if anybody wants to try to take my OSAS away, you can't. I won't give it to you and scripture says you can't take it away.
 
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aiki

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If I do works, then I do them out of love and respect for our Lord. Not because it is necessary for my salvation.

Amen! This is at the heart of the difference between the SAL (saved-and-lost) and OSAS perspectives. SAL people tend to think fear is a better motivator to righteousness than love. How sad and terrible that is! They think Self preservation can do what dying to Self and living unto God from a heart of love cannot. They seem to think the First and Great Commandment ought to have an addendum: Love God with all your being - or He'll smash you down and throw you into Hell. What an awful and ugly contortion of God's truth!

1 John 4:16-19
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



 
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JIMINZ

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I wholeheartedly agree with your statements. When I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior I repented all of my sins, I made a public profession of faith through my being baptized in front of our congregation and I began the longest battle of my life. It never stopped being a battle for me and it still is a battle today, but I will never give up being repentant, being sorrowful of my sins, and pulling the reigns back to following the Bible to the feet of Jesus Christ. When I see someone in need who touches my heart I lend them a hand. I have passed a lot of people claiming homelessness but have stopped and fed some because they didn't beg. I have lost my way many times but pulled the reigns back on the correct path. I teach moral living when it comes to asking me. One time walking down the hall I had two burritos in my hand and asked my coworker if he wanted one. He said yes so I was bouncing them back and forth then handed him one and he said, "Ahhh, I see. Had to give me the little one?" I thought I had been walking the walk of Jesus long enough for him to know that I gave him the larger of the two. I later saw posts he made on Facebook and realized that I could never have touched him with the Scriptures. He was a quiet hater of the Lord then. Kept it to himself. But when he was no longer bound to the politeness of working together the real him came out and it was not pretty nor nice. I thank God that he knew I would not be perfect in my flesh, but my spirit cries out to be like him and to be with him. If I do works, then I do them out of love and respect for our Lord. Not because it is necessary for my salvation. That I know is the Gift of Love he gave to me and will never take it away nor will any man nor evil spirit be able to pluck it away from me. So if anybody wants to try to take my OSAS away, you can't. I won't give it to you and scripture says you can't take it away.

The works James is speaking of, are the works which Christians have been Ordained to do after their Salvation, the works are not prior to, and thereby become part of or prerequisite to that Salvation.

Eph 2:9,10
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I am Justified in Salvation, I do not receive Salvation in Justification.

Rom. 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
 
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God not only wants perfection——- He demands it! He found it in His Son. I do God’s will. What would that be? “ Believe in the One He sent.Because Of that FAITH , God imputed me with the perfection of His Son.Its the only way to get it.The Holy Spirit thAt we possess as Believers will help us by “ transforming “ us into the image of His Son. God will change us from the inside out if we have the faith to let him.

Strange how you are not addressing any of the points I made with Scripture.

As for your mention of God's will:

Scripture says,

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification,
that ye should abstain from fornication:" (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (KJV).

"God's will is for you to be holy,
so stay away from all sexual sin." (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (NLT).

The context of John 6:28 in which you quote in regards to Jesus saying you must believe in reference to their desire to do the works of God is in view of the fact that they are unbelievers. They did not accept Jesus as their Savior and seeked forgiveness with Him. For they desired for the physical bread and not the spiritual bread (Who is Jesus). Jesus was not talking exclusively to His 12 disciples who had forsaken all things to follow Him.

Jesus also said,
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

As for condition of the imputation of Jesus Christ's sacrifice to our lives as believers (i.e. the Substitionary Atonement):

It is not just having a belief in Jesus in order to have His sacrifice applied to our lives but it is also in walking in the light as Christ is in the light.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

In 1 John 1:7, the words "walk," "light," and "he" have a particular meaning.

1. "Walk" = Keep God's commandments (Compare 1 John 1:5-7 with 1 John 2:3-4).
2. "Light" = God the Father.
3. "He" = Christ.

After reading 1 John 1:7 with this meaning, then read this verse here:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him" (John 14:23).

In any event, whether we agree or disagree, I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.
 
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marineimaging

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The works James is speaking of, are the works which Christians have been Ordained to do after their Salvation, the works are not prior to, and thereby become part of or prerequisite to that Salvation.

Eph 2:9,10
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I am Justified in Salvation, I do not receive Salvation in Justification.

Rom. 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
By chance, have you heard of the litmus test for these works to insure that they are equal to perfect in the eyes of God? I mean, to be worth the perfection of eternal salvation must not the works be perfect in every way? Otherwise you are offering a less than perfect work for a more than perfect eternity with God? Which work can you do that does not fall short of the Glory of God? What work can you do that is perfect? That is equal to your soul? None. I tell you there is NOTHING you can do on this earth that is sufficient to earn your salvation. It was proclaimed as a gift from God through the sacrifice of HIS only begotten Son. It is free to any who ask for it. What you do for him, because it is always going to be less than perfect, will never live up to His perfection. It is impossible. But what I do I do because I love Him. When I help others it is because my master said to be that way. When I go or come in the name of Jesus, I am not doing it to earn my salvation. I am doing it because I Love him. I don't know how many other ways to say it. Thank God for my salvation through Jesus Christ.
 
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By chance, have you heard of the litmus test for these works to insure that they are equal to perfect in the eyes of God? I mean, to be worth the perfection of eternal salvation must not the works be perfect in every way? Otherwise you are offering a less than perfect work for a more than perfect eternity with God? Which work can you do that does not fall short of the Glory of God? What work can you do that is perfect? That is equal to your soul? None. I tell you there is NOTHING you can do on this earth that is sufficient to earn your salvation. It was proclaimed as a gift from God through the sacrifice of HIS only begotten Son. It is free to any who ask for it. What you do for him, because it is always going to be less than perfect, will never live up to His perfection. It is impossible. But what I do I do because I love Him. When I help others it is because my master said to be that way. When I go or come in the name of Jesus, I am not doing it to earn my salvation. I am doing it because I Love him. I don't know how many other ways to say it. Thank God for my salvation through Jesus Christ.

.
Your right, no argument from me.
 
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marineimaging

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If we can live sinless lives, Christ died in vain. Ignore all of this complicated clap- trap and simply trust God to save you via the vehicle he devised for us wretched sinners—-1 Cor15:1-4. So simple,and it works!
When this thread ends I will better understand how Paul felt when he walked into town and saw all of the scribes and Pharisees. They were alive 2000 years ago and are even more alive today. Thank Jesus for my eternal salvation. No matter what I tried I couldn't earn it, fake it, or take it. It had to be given to me and my God is not a liar.
 
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JIMINZ

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Strange how you are not addressing any of the points I made with Scripture.

As for your mention of God's will:

Scripture says,

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification,
that ye should abstain from fornication:" (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (KJV).

"God's will is for you to be holy,
so stay away from all sexual sin." (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (NLT).

The context of John 6:28 in which you quote in regards to Jesus saying you must believe in reference to their desire to do the works of God is in view of the fact that they are unbelievers. They did not accept Jesus as their Savior and seeked forgiveness with Him. For they desired for the physical bread and not the spiritual bread (Who is Jesus). Jesus was not talking exclusively to His 12 disciples who had forsaken all things to follow Him.

Jesus also said,
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

As for condition of the imputation of Jesus Christ's sacrifice to our lives as believers (i.e. the Substitionary Atonement):

It is not just having a belief in Jesus in order to have His sacrifice applied to our lives but it is also in walking in the light as Christ is in the light.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

In 1 John 1:7, the words "walk," "light," and "he" have a particular meaning.

1. "Walk" = Keep God's commandments (Compare 1 John 1:5-7 with 1 John 2:3-4).
2. "Light" = God the Father.
3. "He" = Christ.

After reading 1 John 1:7 with this meaning, then read this verse here:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him" (John 14:23).

In any event, whether we agree or disagree, I am wishing you nothing but good things to you in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

.
WOW, you sure have set up a lot of laws and do's and dont's, how do you keep track of them all, or are you in a perpetual state of repentance for sins committed?
 
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Bible Highlighter

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WOW, you sure have set up a lot of laws and do's and don't, how do you keep track of them all or are you in a perpetual state of repentance for sins committed?

So you don’t believe in the “do nots” in the New Testament such as Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 10:38, Matthew 25:41-46, Luke 9:26, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 3:15, and the “do’s” in the NT such as Matthew 5:8, Matthew 19:17, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, John 14:15, John 15:10, Revelation 22:14?
 
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That is an artificial distinction not made by either Paul or James. Paul disallows works in general as being the means of attaining justification in Titus 3:5, writing to a Gentile, while referring to the "works of the law" in such books as Romans and Galatians, which disallows all systems of salvation attained by law-keeping (but not as the basis for validation of faith), "for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." (Galatians 3:21,22)

When you read Titus 3:5, you also have to read Titus 1:16, Titus 2:10-11 and Titus 2:14 to get a balanced perspective.

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:10-11).

“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).

So what is Titus 3:5 saying?

It is talking about how we are initially and ultimately saved by God’s grace and the following regenerative power of the Spirit (when we surrender to the Lord).

We are not saved by man directed works but by the works of God (when we cooperate with God).

You said:
Meaning that if there could have been a system of obtaining salvation attained by law-keeping then it would be the Law, and thus its rejection constitutes a disallowance of all such systems, as opposed to salvation by heart-purifying justifying faith.

We are not saved by works alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) anymore than we are saved by faith alone (James 2:24).

In fact, if good works did not play a part in our salvation then a person could be saved even while being an axe murdering rapist. They could be like a Hiltler and murder tons of Jews and still be saved while they killed. For do you believe David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

You said:
Nor were the works of the law were not "man directed works," "guided by human motivation," as instead they were commanded by God in order to obtain life.

Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord. (Leviticus 18:5)

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. (Romans 10:5)

Right. The Law of Moses. This is what you also fail to understand. Paul was not talking about all Law (like God’s Eternal Moral Laws or the Law of Christ or New Covenant Law), but he was talking about the Law of Moses (like the OT ceremonial laws - See Colossians 2:14-17).

Paul was trying to condemn “Circumcision Salvationism.” Romans 3:1 says,

“What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
‭‭
Galatians 5:2 says,

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
‭‭
However, Paul condemned those who would break the Moral Law, though. For he said,

“But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” (Romans 2:8-9).

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

You said:
And as such the works of the Law were works of faith, under which a soul believed that that they would obtain salvation by keeping them, by God's grace, as promised. Which is essentially what you preach, including confession of every sin one commits as a believer. The problem is that all fail of both perfect obedience as well as complete confession (see my prior post above ).

When did God turn away his wrath and or judgment with the Ninevites?

If you were to re-read Jonah 3:6-10, you would discover that it was only when the Ninevites had forsaken their wicked and evil ways (sin) when God decided to turn back from His wrath or judgement.

Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

So yes. You have to confess and forsake sin to have mercy. But this would be the commands within the New Testament and not the Old Testament. Granted, the Moral Law has appeared to have carried over from the OT on into the NT, but we are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. The Law of Moses is no more.
 
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MDC

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When you read Titus 3:5, you also have to read Titus 1:16, Titus 2:10-11 and Titus 2:14 to get a balanced perspective.

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:10-11).

“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).

So what is Titus 3:5 saying?

It is talking about how we are initially and ultimately saved by God’s grace and the following regenerative power of the Spirit (when we surrender to the Lord).

We are not saved by man directed works but by the works of God (when we cooperate with God).



We are not saved by works alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) anymore than we are saved by faith alone (James 2:24).

In fact, if good works did not play a part in our salvation then a person could be saved even while being an axe murdering rapist. They could be like a Hiltler and murder tons of Jews and still be saved while they killed. For do you believe David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?



Right. The Law of Moses. This is what you also fail to understand. Paul was not talking about all Law (like God’s Eternal Moral Laws or the Law of Christ or New Covenant Law), but he was talking about the Law of Moses (like the OT ceremonial laws - See Colossians 2:14-17).

Paul was trying to condemn “Circumcision Salvationism.” Romans 3:1 says,

“What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
‭‭
Galatians 5:2 says,

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
‭‭
However, Paul condemned those who would break the Moral Law, though. For he said,

“But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;” (Romans 2:8-9).

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).



When did God turn away his wrath and or judgment with the Ninevites?

If you were to re-read Jonah 3:6-10, you would discover that it was only when the Ninevites had forsaken their wicked and evil ways (sin) when God decided to turn back from His wrath or judgement.

Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

So yes. You have to confess and forsake sin to have mercy. But this would be the commands within the New Testament and not the Old Testament. Granted, the Moral Law has appeared to have carried over from the OT on into the NT, but we are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. The Law of Moses is no more.
All you are saying is that Christ and His merits or works alone are not sufficient to save
 
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mark kennedy

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Amen! This is at the heart of the difference between the SAL (saved-and-lost) and OSAS perspectives. SAL people tend to think fear is a better motivator to righteousness than love. How sad and terrible that is! They think Self preservation can do what dying to Self and living unto God from a heart of love cannot. They seem to think the First and Great Commandment ought to have an addendum: Love God with all your being - or He'll smash you down and throw you into Hell. What an awful and ugly contortion of God's truth!

1 John 4:16-19
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


You hit on a key point here, justification is a product of God's love toward us in our fallen state, it is by grace through faith apart from works. We know that burnt offerings don't take away sin they remind us of it, we can ear pork chops and chicken and be sanctified or cerimonially clean underthe law and be nothing more then white washed tombs. The works of righteousness that follow justification, works of righteousness, stem from the love of God shed abroad in our hearts and mAnifest in what James cAlls the royal law, love your neighbor as yourself.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Really? God does not want perfection? Then why does He command it of us in many places? In my experience, many who believe like yourself do not think that the word "perfect" really means "perfect." Am I correct? If this is the case, then why does the Bible use other words like without fault, blameless, etc. in relation to believers? Also, the verses with the word "perfect" would be non-sensical if they did not mean "perfect." For example: We are told to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Is not the Heavenly Father perfect? Yet, many in your camp will fight tooth and nail to say "perfect" does not mean "perfect" still. (Important Note: I believe "perfection" mentioned in the Bible deals with putting away sins or faults that do not lead unto spiritual death in most cases - See 1 John 5:16-17; It is also important to understand that "perfection" is a state that is lived out moment to moment and is not reflective of an entire person's life or existence. The basics of repentance is putting away serious grievous sin like obedience to the Moral Law or in loving God and your neighbor; Things like: "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," etc.).

As for forsaking sin:

Proverbs 28:13 says,
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."

This verse is saying that whosever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy. Yet, you are implying that my mention of "forsaking sins" is not necessary. Okay. You either do not believe Proverbs 28:13, or you do not understand Proverbs 28:13 in what it plainly says.

Also, if you believe that "forsaking sins" is not necessary: You obviously did not understand what happened with the Ninevites, either. In Jonah 3:6-10, when the Ninevites forsaked their wicked and evil ways, God then withdrew His wrath or judgment that He was going to bring on them.



“ Forsaking sin “ is great, but nobody can do it completely. I thank God it is not the criteria for getting saved or staying saved . If you think that, you are a legalist. Possibly “ accursed”.You need to discover the true way of salvation.It demands something a human being can actually do.Simply believe 1cor15:1-4.Adding to this Gospel is very dangerous.God will be asking about how you handled it someday.Good luck.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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“ Forsaking sin “ is great, but nobody can do it completely. I thank God it is not the criteria for getting saved or staying saved . If you think that, you are a legalist. Possibly “ accursed”.You need to discover the true way of salvation.It demands something a human being can actually do.Simply believe 1cor15:1-4.Adding to this Gospel is very dangerous.God will be asking about how you handled it someday.Good luck.
Strange ideas you have .....

Did you forsake murdering children only for a little while, or forever ?

Can you forsake having 7 wives forever, or will you start again ?

Is there anything Jesus said to do that you cannot do ? (HE SAID HIS COMMANDS are NOT BURDENSOME)
 
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JIMINZ

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Strange ideas you have .....

Did you forsake murdering children only for a little while, or forever ?

Can you forsake having 7 wives forever, or will you start again ?

Is there anything Jesus said to do that you cannot do ? (HE SAID HIS COMMANDS are NOT BURDENSOME)

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And you misrepresent these very Commands, with these silly questions.

Why do people go automatically to the furthest extreme to make their point?

Be realistic in your questions and you will begin to get the answers which will speak to the issue.

Unless the object of the discussion is, to only argue religious points, Spiritual one-ups-man-ship.

You sound like the Lawyer which insists on only Yes and No answers, attempting to control the outcome of the interrogation, by playing with words in their questions.
 
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