Tongues, a different view.

[1stcenturylady]

There are two ways to interpret that scripture.
And no compelling evidence to choose your theory as correct.

And isn't your theory dependent on one heavenly language being spoken?
The term "other tongues" is plural. See scripture below.

Acts 2:4
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to
speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

That is Dave L's premise. It sounds reasonable, but tongues is plural. I try to stay open minded and humble - the only way the Holy Spirit can bring us into all truth, instead of believing we know it all.

There is only one other way to interpret Acts 2, and that is the traditional false teaching of Cessationists that tongues was for preaching that contradicts scripture, and disregards the inspired statement that the tongues spoken on the Day of Pentecost was any other than our prayer and praise language spoken "to God that no man understands" naturally, and stubbornly do not put aside our false human reasoning that they understood naturally, then we miss out on Him waking you in the morning for seven years before you've even opened your eyes and receiving the answer as I did - "interpretation of tongues." And it fits perfectly, as only He can. But don't believe me - ask Him.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Wrong thread, I apologize.

 

[Dave L]

Almost all of the cessationist I know reject healings and miracles too.

I think all cessationist believe the Apostles performed the same level of miracles Jesus did to confirm their apostleship. But these miracles ended with the apostles. But the prayer of faith still heals. And we see miraculous cures. But we do not see amputees having limbs restored. Or the raising of the dead, at least in any documented sense.

 

[Dave L]

That was only 3000 out of well over a million Jews in town for the feast.

And 5,000 a few days later.

 

[Dave L]

This looks like "a leap in the dark" conclusion without any Biblical basis. No one was born again until the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came to the Church. The Jew weren't abandoning the Old Covenant at all. This is clearly seen with the Jewish Christians requiring the Gentile Christians to be circumcised and to follow the Law of Moses in order to be saved. Paul and Barnabas had to go to Jerusalem and have a conference with the Apostles to sort things out. The New Testament is there for a reason and it needs to be read carefully before jumping to unfounded conclusions.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Abraham believed God, as did Job, Abel, Rahab, and all listed in Hebrews 11.

 

[Saint Steven]

That is Dave L's premise. It sounds reasonable, but tongues is plural. I try to stay open minded and humble - the only way the Holy Spirit can bring us into all truth, instead of believing we know it all.

There is only one other way to interpret Acts 2, and that is the traditional false teaching of Cessationists that tongues was for preaching that contradicts scripture, and disregards the inspired statement that the tongues spoken on the Day of Pentecost was any other than our prayer and praise language spoken "to God that no man understands" naturally, and stubbornly do not put aside our false human reasoning that they understood naturally, then we miss out on Him waking you in the morning for seven years before you've even opened your eyes and receiving the answer as I did - "interpretation of tongues." And it fits perfectly, as only He can. But don't believe me - ask Him.

You are still grasping at straws.
Next you'll be playing the, "Are you calling God a liar?!" card.
Open minded and humble? So you are inferring that I am closed minded and proud?
You are really something. Doggedly holding your book position and keeping me in check. How is that staying open minded and humble? Conceding nothing and belittling me until I called you on it. So, let's get real here. This is not the black and white issue you want to make it. There is room for different takes on this. Get over yourself.

And frankly, I expect a published author to demonstrate better communication skills than what I am reading here. Are you typing this on your phone, or what?

Another scripture to consider as we evaluate your unorthodox theory.
Does a manifestation of the Holy Spirit come before or after the gift of the Spirit?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How could the hearers have manifested the gift before they received it?
Or why would they need to be filled if they were already manifesting?
As in the example of the house of Cornelius. The manifestation meant that they had received the gift. There was nothing to prevent them from being baptized in water. And no need for the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think all cessationist believe the Apostles performed the same level of miracles Jesus did to confirm their apostleship. But these miracles ended with the apostles. But the prayer of faith still heals. And we see miraculous cures. But we do not see amputees having limbs restored. Or the raising of the dead, at least in any documented sense.

What about this, Dave?

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing,
and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

[Dave L]

What about this, Dave?

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing,
and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

I understand this as a member of Christ's body, we are in a sense in on everything he does, from ruling the nations to creating the new heavens and earth.

 

[Saint Steven]

I understand this as a member of Christ's body, we are in a sense in on everything he does, from ruling the nations to creating the new heavens and earth.

The context defines the works.

John 14:9-14
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip,
even after I have been among you such a long time?
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?
The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority.
Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me;
or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing,
and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name,
so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

 

[Dave L]

The context defines the works.

John 14:9-14
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip,
even after I have been among you such a long time?
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?
The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority.
Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me;
or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing,
and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name,
so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Yes, but as members of Christ's body we are seated with him in heavenly places and his works are our works including all of his miracles. Plus we can ask in his name and even move mountains provided he gives us the faith to do so.

 

[ARBITER01]

Scripturally, that would be the outpouring at Pentecost. Acts chapter two. (obviously)
It differs from the other four in that the unknown tongue being spoken is in the language of the hearer. Why do you disagree? (if you still do)

Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

Again, let me correct this.

There isn't different types of tongues gifts. There is only one gift of tongues listed in our bible, and that same bible lists it being operated in 2 different ways...

Praying in tongues -- speaking in tongues
Human spirit operation -- Holy Spirit operation
Personal edification -- corporate edification

Scripture always agrees with scripture. When The Holy Spirit says that "no man understands" this gift in operation, that statement applies across all books of the bible that He wrote. If The Holy Spirit operates this gift in the corporate setting, it must then be interpreted by the gift of interpretation to be understood in that same setting. If you operate this gift in your prayer setting, you would need the gift of interpretation to understand what was being said by your human spirit at that moment.

The gift of tongues has never operated in human languages. If human languages are being uttered by The Holy Spirit, it is a different gift altogether. This specifically applies to Acts 2.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You are still grasping at straws.
Next you'll be playing the, "Are you calling God a liar?!" card.
Open minded and humble? So you are inferring that I am closed minded and proud?
You are really something. Doggedly holding your book position and keeping me in check. How is that staying open minded and humble? Conceding nothing and belittling me until I called you on it. So, let's get real here. This is not the black and white issue you want to make it. There is room for different takes on this. Get over yourself.

And frankly, I expect a published author to demonstrate better communication skills than what I am reading here. Are you typing this on your phone, or what?

Another scripture to consider as we evaluate your unorthodox theory.
Does a manifestation of the Holy Spirit come before or after the gift of the Spirit?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How could the hearers have manifested the gift before they received it?
Or why would they need to be filled if they were already manifesting?
As in the example of the house of Cornelius. The manifestation meant that they had received the gift. There was nothing to prevent them from being baptized in water. And no need for the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit.

When you see a rule in Scripture, you must see how a story fits it, not how the rule must change to fit the story. You've got your cart before the horse. If you think that wise, stay with it.

BTW, your attack was very telling...

 

[1stcenturylady]

You are still grasping at straws.
Next you'll be playing the, "Are you calling God a liar?!" card.
Open minded and humble? So you are inferring that I am closed minded and proud?
You are really something. Doggedly holding your book position and keeping me in check. How is that staying open minded and humble? Conceding nothing and belittling me until I called you on it. So, let's get real here. This is not the black and white issue you want to make it. There is room for different takes on this. Get over yourself.

And frankly, I expect a published author to demonstrate better communication skills than what I am reading here. Are you typing this on your phone, or what?

Another scripture to consider as we evaluate your unorthodox theory.
Does a manifestation of the Holy Spirit come before or after the gift of the Spirit?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How could the hearers have manifested the gift before they received it?
Or why would they need to be filled if they were already manifesting?
As in the example of the house of Cornelius. The manifestation meant that they had received the gift. There was nothing to prevent them from being baptized in water. And no need for the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit.

 

[Saint Steven]

When you see a rule in Scripture, you must see how a story fits it, not how the rule must change to fit the story. You've got your cart before the horse. If you think that wise, stay with it.

BTW, your attack was very telling...

Very telling?
And what about your behavior? Very telling as well? (yup)

Again, this is a matter of opinion yet you are trying to make it a black and white issue.
You have chosen a single verse to define tongues. Is that all the Bible has to say about tongues? Or the only one that fits your agenda? Seven years of study gave you one verse? The center-point around which your unorthodox theory orbits.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Very telling?
And what about your behavior? Very telling as well? (yup)

Again, this is a matter of opinion yet you are trying to make it a black and white issue.
You have chosen a single verse to define tongues. Is that all the Bible has to say about tongues? Or the only one that fits your agenda? Seven years of study gave you one verse? The center-point around which your unorthodox theory orbits.

Orthodoxy doesn't even believe in the supernatural. The Bible is a mere history book with a promise at the end. What you don't want to see is that on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came, He came on all of God's chosen ones. That included the devout Jews He was supernaturally drawing by use of one of His Own Gifts, but not on the mockers. More than anything, if one wants more of God, they cannot be a mocker or sit in the seat of scoffers.

So scoff at my relationship with God. Scoff at correct exegesis, twist and contradict the written word down to a level you can understand.

 

[Saint Steven]

Orthodoxy doesn't even believe in the supernatural. The Bible is a mere history book with a promise at the end. What you don't want to see is that on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came, He came on all of God's chosen ones. That included the devout Jews, but not on the mockers. More than anything, if one wants more of God, they cannot be a mocker or sit in the seat of scoffers.

I'm done with your carnal mind that can't see past what Cessationists have filled your mind with. You can say you fight them, but you are one of them.

Orthodoxy doesn't even believe in the supernatural. The Bible is a mere history book with a promise at the end. What you don't want to see is that on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came, He came on all of God's chosen ones. That included the devout Jews He was supernaturally drawing by use of one of His Own Gifts, but not on the mockers. More than anything, if one wants more of God, they cannot be a mocker or sit in the seat of scoffers.

So scoff at my relationship with God. Scoff at correct exegesis, twist and contradict the written word down to a level you can understand.

More belittling, (deleted name calling) and arrogance. You have failed to present a cohesive argument. Thanks for all your help.

 

[Saint Steven]

He said/she said.

He said:
"Another scripture to consider as we evaluate your unorthodox theory.
Does a manifestation of the Holy Spirit come before or after the gift of the Spirit?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How could the hearers have manifested the gift before they received it?
Or why would they need to be filled if they were already manifesting?
As in the example of the house of Cornelius. The manifestation meant that they had received the gift. There was nothing to prevent them from being baptized in water. And no need for the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit."

She said:
"Orthodoxy doesn't even believe in the supernatural."

He said:
"Say what???"

 

[ARBITER01]

He said/she said.

He said:
"Another scripture to consider as we evaluate your unorthodox theory.
Does a manifestation of the Holy Spirit come before or after the gift of the Spirit?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you,
in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How could the hearers have manifested the gift before they received it?
Or why would they need to be filled if they were already manifesting?
As in the example of the house of Cornelius. The manifestation meant that they had received the gift. There was nothing to prevent them from being baptized in water. And no need for the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit."

She said:
"Orthodoxy doesn't even believe in the supernatural."

He said:
"Say what???"

You're mixing things up.

When a Christian is born again, they are sealed with The Holy Spirit, just like scripture says. When a born again Christian takes a further step in faith and seeks the filling of The Holy Spirit afterwards, they also receive His gifts in the process. That has been the process for quite a long time as it is biblical.

The only time that this was not the norm for Christians was when The Lord Jesus decided to begin His church with the Jews, and then the Gentiles following. Both groups were born again and filled immediately afterwards, and thereby manifesting the gifts of The Spirit prior to water immersion or the laying on of hands.

Scripture only denotes these two specific instances, every other instance in our bible has a Christian requiring the laying on of hands to be filled, or it happening from GOD after being water immersed.

This was GOD's decision, and it was good.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Again, let me correct this.

There isn't different types of tongues gifts. There is only one gift of tongues listed in our bible, and that same bible lists it being operated in 2 different ways...

Praying in tongues -- speaking in tongues
Human spirit operation -- Holy Spirit operation
Personal edification -- corporate edification

Scripture always agrees with scripture. When The Holy Spirit says that "no man understands" this gift in operation, that statement applies across all books of the bible that He wrote. If The Holy Spirit operates this gift in the corporate setting, it must then be interpreted by the gift of interpretation to be understood in that same setting. If you operate this gift in your prayer setting, you would need the gift of interpretation to understand what was being said by your human spirit at that moment.

The gift of tongues has never operated in human languages. If human languages are being uttered by The Holy Spirit, it is a different gift altogether. This specifically applies to Acts 2.

Although I agree most of your post, concerning the last paragraph, there is ample documentary evidence that when people have spoken in tongues it has been understood by the native speakers. It has happened twice in my own church - once when a friend of mind prayed in tongues in a prayer meeting and a Christian from Ghana understood it in his own village dialect. I prayed in tongues in a meeting, and a New Zealand Maori lady told me what I was saying, and I had not learned anything of that language at that time. So your comment is not supported by actual and documentary evidence. You may need to rethink your position.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Although I agree most of your post, concerning the last paragraph, there is ample documentary evidence that when people have spoken in tongues it has been understood by the native speakers. It has happened twice in my own church - once when a friend of mind prayed in tongues in a prayer meeting and a Christian from Ghana understood it in his own village dialect. I prayed in tongues in a meeting, and a New Zealand Maori lady told me what I was saying, and I had not learned anything of that language at that time. So your comment is not supported by actual and documentary evidence. You may need to rethink your position.

You know my position on this. I will go with scripture and not vary from it. I can do nothing else. Seeing as no man understands tongues 1 Corinthians 14:2, I have to ask how they understood. And the only answer is interpretation of tongues. And when I say this, someone always disagrees and says that's a gift only for believers. But how does the Spirit draw people? Is He in such a small box that He cannot use one of His own gifts to do the drawing?

I'm not saying your stories are false. I'm saying you are misunderstanding what gifts are being used and by whom. It was the same on the Day of Pentecost.