Age of the earth, why is it relevant?!

[Halbhh]

You can only test future events. You can't predict past events then observe them.

That's typically the case, though in astronomy we know an event we are observing today through a telescope (or by eye) has of course happened in the past, and then the light from it taking time to travel to us.

This is such an interesting thing, because the speed of light in a vacuum is known, and I've personally measured it myself first hand in a physics lab many years ago, so it's not only theoretical or hearsay to me, but instead first-hand direct observation for me.

This means we can figure out accurate distances to the closer stars very easily!

And those distances even to nearby stars are very large.

Because the Earth's orbit is a certain width, then ordinary trigonometry will indicate how nearer objects observed 6 months apart form Earth will appear to shift against the more distant background, due to being nearer to us, and the simple trigonometry of that. This shift is called "parallax". Once we we several measurements 6 months apart, like at 0, 6, 12, 18 months, then we can figure out the transverse motion of the star relative to our own sun, and then subtract that, and then get an accurate distance to the star.

With only simple trigonometry I could show you on paper in a minute.

With modern telescopes like Hubble, and careful and repeated observations, we are able to determine distances with parallax (just trigonometry) out to about 10,000 light years.

In the case of those stars at the limit of the technique, we starlight that is 10,000 years old.

And the more distant stars that do not move, of course are further away, that their light we are getting is older.

And we have a way to get relatively good estimates of their distance also, using as a yardstick high consistent variable stars called Cepheids -- like the North Star, Polaris.

 

[Halbhh]

Direct observation, looking at the closer, relatively less distant stars. Simple trigonometry of seeing them shift against the more distant background as Earth moves around the sun.

Then comparing their shift over time, and calculating their distance with trigonometry. Easy stuff actually.

Proving starlight up to 10,000 years old for these relatively nearby stars inside the limit of our ability to measure with this technique of direct and simple trigonometry.

 

[Jamsie]

My understanding comes directly from trusting God, taking him at his word/the bible, something some here say we cannot do, or was that another thread?

Oh, so you are the only one who trusts God, or only people who believe as you do?

There is nothing to interpret there, it's simply written. So no, I am absolutely not leaning to my own understanding but to the word of God. Not sure why you feel the need to "try" to twist that into something else?

Then if there is nothing to interpret why do you cling to a very specific interpretation, that you won't call an interpretation? It isn't "twisting" as I'm sure that you are aware myriad Biblical Scholars, Christian Scientists, Philosophers, Pastors, Posters here, etc. totally disagree with your "simple reading" (interpretation).

Please show me what I was unable to address? As well as what point I excused myself? If I missed something I will address it, if I did not, then it's on you fro making the accusation...we shall see

You wrote Post #181 - "The reasons doen't really matter and since I have seen your views already, and know they will remain the same, there is no more point."

Here is the only that I received to anything that I wrote, and that one response on the question of what does "Let the land produce..." mean?

You wrote: "Let the water/land bring forth" the water and land are home to things being brought since it was spoken and up to now, things being born of bodies (brought forth) created by God, but some want to lean unto their own understanding, and once the bible is stretched so far that's what it becomes, our own understanding/no longer the truth, a stretch of the simple truths of the bible because "we are smart", we then end up with things like theories and unproven confusion, like evolution....or the unreasonable."

Where in the Bible or any concordance is the word "produce" or "bring forth" defined as "home"? Certainly the word "home" is set as dwelling place or other such references elsewhere ... but nowhere in Gen. 1 is the word used, it seems that is merely an interpretation without, I'm afraid, any validity. Shouldn't a simple reading involve defining "produce"? Then you fall back on the old ad hominem approach..."lean...understanding", "stretched", "our own.../no longer the truth", "...because we are smart", "confusion", and "unreasonable"...Notice none of these remarks address the question. As has been pointed out time and again the command/Fiat was to the Land...any simple reading demonstrates that fact.

*So again what does "Let the land produce..." mean?
*How is it not mediate creation? (Aren't there other instances when God used "mediate" means to produce his desired will, especially through people...such as Moses? - To what was the Command/Fiat directed?)
*Was the command sufficient to create?
*If the command was sufficient then why would it be necessary to qualify as "God made"?
*Gen. 1:3 is clearly immediate - And God said, Let there be light and there was light"...So if all creation was immediate why was this pattern not followed as in And God said, "Let there be living creatures and there was living creatures"?
*Why the often use of "And it was so" after the command to created matter?
*The command was to the "land"/earth/dust and we are told that man and animal are from the same substance what does that suggest?
*Do you not see a structure of creation as was noted with Gen. 1?
*We know that plant, animal, and human life involves a process why is it so anathema that this same process was from the beginning?
*As concerns Adam how does one qualify the time between Gen. 1:27 and then the detail in Gen. 2:7-23, with 24 hours?

Not relevant. I get my understanding from the bible, not men, that way there is no misdirection..

Of course it is relevant simply because of Romans 1:20, and as to the OP it is a major stumbling block to unbelievers. The Bible does not detail an almost infinite number of things...does that mean that they don't exist? As I mentioned why is there such discussion on pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, etc., even the Trinity isn't specifically stated...but we use our reason to assent to the truth of that, the "simple" reason isn't always so simple. If the Bible is so simple why are there Theologians, why have Pastors and teachers? It is also relevant because prior to the anti-intellectualism of the fundamentalists, prompted mostby Evolution, many devout Christian scholars considered OEC not only likely but fully most plausible ... and many understood how evolution could fit the Genesis narrative.

 

[SkyWriting]

I'm sure some scientists have it going on but others, the way they approach writing a scientific paper, well, lets just say that doesn't exactly instill confidence here.

God given common sense is for anyone, that and the knowledge of God is the way we should approach everything.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.


I'll take the word of God any day. I mean seriously, some of these people that lean to their own understanding actually believe evolution to be a fact...see what happends?

Some aspects, like natural selection, are covered in scripture. I've sure you believe every aspect of evolution, except that it explains origins, which it really doesn't go that far back.

 

[SkyWriting]

I'll take the word of God any day. I mean seriously, some of these people that lean to their own understanding actually believe evolution to be a fact...see what happens?

The Word of God says the hills and mountains are eternal.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Some aspects, like natural selection, are covered in scripture. I've sure you believe every aspect of evolution, except that it explains origins, which it really doesn't go that far back.

The bible doesn't even hint at evolution, that's a chosen interpretation so people can go along with a world view, world views of such a Christian, as I understand the bible, we are to stay away from.

I'll take the simple biblical explanation, and see how it goes in the end.

 

[Kenny'sID]

The Word of God says the hills and mountains are eternal.

Quote your scripture and lets take a look at it in context.

 

[Halbhh]

The bible doesn't even hint at evolution, that's a chosen interpretation so people can go along with a world view, world views of such a Christian, as I understand the bible, we are to stay away from.

I'll take the simple biblical explanation, and see how it goes in the end.

The Bible is about profound things, not mere engineering and sciences, like bridge construction, geology, chemistry, biochemistry, etc. Evolution would not be in the Bible either way (if God's plan or an illusion, either one), because it's not profound enough.

The reason we ever debate it is because some Christians insist the Bible rules it out, and other Christians try to show how the Bible doesn't rule it out at all.

The truth of the matter is that God chose to reveal only a very broad brush stroke description of how life unfolded on Earth, without small details.

We don't know all sorts of small details. Why?

Here's why -- because they don't matter for our souls.

It does not matter for your soul how much time passed during verse 1 before verse 2 happened. Nor how much time passed after the first light on Earth before the first life on Earth. Hearing it was 22 hours or 22 million years, either one, would not save your soul. This is why the precise time duration, the mere numerical quantity isn't in the text -- it's not relevant! What is relevant is that God created all that is, the entire Universe, and therefore every last thing in it, and all it's natural laws, His designs. Chemistry, geology -- His design. Physics -- His design. Biochemistry -- His design. Stop doubting and believe!

 

[Kenny'sID]

Oh, so you are the only one who trusts God, or only people who believe as you do?

That really is a bad start to your post here.

Then if there is nothing to interpret why do you cling to a very specific interpretation, that you won't call an interpretation?

Because that is what it says, plain and simple. If you want to change the word of God, be my guest, but I can tell you, not a good idea.

It isn't "twisting" as I'm sure that you are aware myriad Biblical Scholars, Christian Scientists, Philosophers, Pastors, Posters here, etc. totally disagree with your "simple reading" (interpretation).

Of course it is, it's nothing like what is simply stated. If you choose not to see that, up to you.

Where in the Bible or any concordance is the word "produce" or "bring forth" defined as "home"? Certainly the word "home" is set as dwelling place or other such references elsewhere ...

Would you like me to quote the KJV instead? What version do you want?

Of course it is relevant

It is not, and I explained why...no reason the repeat myself.

See these are they things you say I didn't address when I did. For example if you want to bring Cinderella into the picture, I'm going to tell you, that isn't relative, and that would be me addressing what you said, understand? That said, I'd guess I actually did address your posts but if there is something specific, lay it on me, one at a time, and keep it short and simple as possible.

 

[Kenny'sID]

We don't know all sorts of small details. Why?

Here's why -- because they don't matter for our souls.

A bit short sighted. To add to the word of God is a serious problem, you can find/read the warning and decide for yourself how much it "matters".

Saying a completely worldly idea such as evolution is in the bible, where there is not so much as a hint of it, is adding to the bible.

Some really do need to take these biblical warnings more seriously while they even guess about this and that, and put it in others mind even the possibility the bible states something it does not. Pay attention to the consequences for your own good.

 

[Halbhh]

A bit short sighted. To add to the word of God is a serious problem, you can find/read the warning and decide for yourself how much it "matters".

Saying a completely worldly idea such as evolution is in the bible, where there is not so much as a hint of it, is adding to the bible.

Some really do need to take these biblical warnings more seriously while they even guess about this and that, and put it in others mind even the possibility the bible states something it does not. Pay attention to the consequences for your own good.

It's exceedingly serious to add or subtract anything from the word of God, and it's urgent for anyone that does to repent. If you can find even one sentence that merely seems to, for poor writing, or confusing phrasing even, please do show me which one, and how it seems to say, so that I can correct that! I can assure you I intend to faithfully communicate anything about the word always, though anyone can fail in their wording at times, and we all want to be clear and not confusing.

 

[Petros2015]

It seems in my experience, new earthers tend to be obsessively dogmatic in holding this position. It's not sufficient that simply they hold this worldview, it's necessary everyone else does as well. Is there an underlying philosophical position I'm missing here?

They find other positions a threat (perhaps rightly so) to the concept of biblical infallibility. The whole tower starts to come down, starting with the foundation.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's exceedingly serious to add or subtract anything from the word of God, and it's urgent for anyone that does to repent. If you can find even one sentence that merely seems to, for poor writing, or confusing phrasing even, please do show me which one, and how it seems to say, so that I can correct that! I can assure you I intend to faithfully communicate anything about the word always, though anyone can fail in their wording at times, and we all want to be clear and not confusing.

You said it doesn't matter for our souls, and I mentioned why it can matter. You will have to decide for yourself what comments you may have made that suggest anything other than what the bible says. All I ask is people in general be more mindful and think about what they are doing when tossing certain things around willy nilly, and without a thought to possible consequences.

It appears people don't understand what they do.

 

[Halbhh]

You said it doesn't matter for our souls, and I mentioned why it can matter. You will have to decide for yourself what comments you may have made that suggest anything other than what the bible says. All I ask is people in general be more mindful and think about what they are doing when tossing certain things around willy nilly, and without a thought to possible consequences.

It appears people don't understand what they do.

While the only saving faith is shown in the 4 gospels -- faith in Christ Jesus, the Son of God, Who came and died for us, to save us from our sins, and Who rose again, and will come again -- I believe in all that is in the Old Testament fully also. I notice that in Genesis chapter 1 we are not told time durations, such as between the days of creation given in this vision (we understand to Moses). It does not matter if a believer guesses correctly about time durations in Genesis chapter 1, and there are none in there, but instead the 6 distinct individual days of creation are broadly described, and the whole chapter I feel is meant to change you, to change our mental state, and for me I experience a sense of awe and wonder and reverence, but these are my individual reaction, and perhaps for others their exact experience of being changed by Genesis chapter 1 may be different, but the thing is, everyone should listen to the words, without noise of doctrines in their mind talking over the Word, but listen instead, silently, being the listener, so that we are lifted, changed, receive the gift of the scriptures. None should judge the Word, and try to change it into some doctrines, see, but instead we should feel reverent awe (or something like that), like Moses, who had to take off his shoes, because he was standing on holy ground.

 

[Jamsie]

That really is a bad start to your post here.

Then please explain why so many people disagree with you? It is only a "bad start" to one who doesn't consider their self-stultifying initial remark.

Because that is what it says, plain and simple. If you want to change the word of God, be my guest, but I can tell you, not a good idea.

Please show me exactly where I have changed a single word? Again, why is there so much disagreement on Genesis if it is so "plain and simple", the "bad start" remark is rather pointless.

Of course it is, it's nothing like what is simply stated. If you choose not to see that, up to you.

Of course it ISN'T...please show me what has been twisted...I used direct quotes from the Bible not one word changed, so? Of course you still can't answer the questions posed to you...

Would you like me to quote the KJV instead? What version do you want?

Pick any version you like and show where the word produce or bring forth is defined as "home"?

It is not, and I explained why...no reason the repeat myself.

See these are they things you say I didn't address when I did. For example if you want to bring Cinderella into the picture, I'm going to tell you, that isn't relative, and that would be me addressing what you said, understand? That said, I'd guess I actually did address your posts but if there is something specific, lay it on me, one at a time, and keep it short and simple as possible.

I gave a list of questions which so far you have not addressed with anything but avoidance. You have not responded to anything concerning why there is general disagreement on Genesis, why there is pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, Trinity, etc. - you have not addressed Romans 1:20 - the 2 books that God wrote, you steer clear of the term "mediate" though it is prominent in any plain and simple reading of Gen. 1, you have not addressed the questions concerning why only 1 day command is stated as immediate and 5 day commands are not, etc., etc., and perhaps since you have no answers it may be best for you to simply not respond with the same ineffective generic responses.

If you want to seriously discuss simply pick one from the question list, still waiting on what "Let the land produce..." means.....

 

[Bumble Bee]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has had a small clean. Please remember to speak to each other with respect even when disagreeing.
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[SkyWriting]

Quote your scripture and lets take a look at it in context.

Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low.

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents, up to the bounties of the everlasting hills.

Psalm 76:4 Thou enlightenest wonderfully from the everlasting hills. .

Habakkuk 3:6 When he stops, the earth shakes. When he looks, the nations tremble. He shatters the everlasting mountains and levels the eternal hills.

Micah 6:2 "Hear, you mountains, the LORD's accusation; listen, you everlasting
foundations of the earth.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low.

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents, up to the bounties of the everlasting hills.

Psalm 76:4 Thou enlightenest wonderfully from the everlasting hills. .

Habakkuk 3:6 When he stops, the earth shakes. When he looks, the nations tremble. He shatters the everlasting mountains and levels the eternal hills.

Micah 6:2 "Hear, you mountains, the LORD's accusation; listen, you everlasting
foundations of the earth.

Then you are saying there was no beginning in creation at all, it was always here, no one created it? Or would that just pertain to the mountains? I mean how mountains can have always been here with no beginning, and without the created "heaven and earth" to put them on, it;s a bit tough to fathom, but if you say so.

Personally, common sense would tell me the mountains were created along with everything else, then assume the "everlasting" you are referring to means something else.

 

[SkyWriting]

Then you are saying there was no beginning in creation at all, it was always here, no one created it? Or would that just pertain to the mountains? I mean how mountains can have always been here with no beginning, and without the created "heaven and earth" to put them on, it;s a bit tough to fathom, but if you say so.

Personally, common sense would tell me the mountains were created along with everything else, then assume the "everlasting" you are referring to means something else.

I am saying that scripture is clear that the earth is ancient, says so clearly and plainly, and that no new testament writers were so confused about what they had read in the OT that they needed to restate how young the earth was to anyone. No one believed the earth was 3000 years old. The hills are so old, they are considered "everlasting" because they don't erode or change in generations. Even then they had fossils of sea creatures showing, just as they do now.

Psalms 102:25, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.”

Even during "creation week" the earth is described as very well established and not 4 days old. 4 days would be along time for plants to grow with no sun. Trees with fruit? It takes me a couple years before my trees bear fruit.

 

[SkyWriting]

Then you are saying there was no beginning in creation at all, it was always here, no one created it? Or would that just pertain to the mountains? I mean how mountains can have always been here with no beginning, and without the created "heaven and earth" to put them on, it;s a bit tough to fathom, but if you say so.

Personally, common sense would tell me the mountains were created along with everything else, then assume the "everlasting" you are referring to means something else.

Missing your promised contextual analysis, but I give you full credit.
You were able to rephrase the only logical Young Earth answer:
"The Bible doesn't mean, what it says."
Good job sir!

Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills...

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low.

Genesis 49:26 The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents, up to the bounties of the everlasting hills.

Psalm 76:4 Thou enlightenest wonderfully from the everlasting hills. .

Habakkuk 3:6 When he stops, the earth shakes. When he looks, the nations tremble. He shatters the everlasting mountains and levels the eternal hills.

Micah 6:2 "Hear, you mountains, the LORD's accusation; listen, you everlasting
foundations of the earth.