Is it truly bad to sin?

[Kees Hogenbirk]

No, God does not control us as if we are robots, He has given us free will. How does this make God "not almighty?" Is it any sign of superiority of a parent to brainwash a child and control all of his actions, just because the parent can?

You are a human being, created in the likeness and the image of God. Your own spirit, you control yourself with your God given free will. God can influence you for good, speak to you through your conscience, nature, other people, warn you through His Spirit and word but ultimately the decision is yours to make.

James 1:13-16
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Fair point. All might does not mean all controlling. Convinced.

But what do you mean when you say we have free will? Aside from God's will, thoughts, feelings, brain-chemistry and external circumstances (which are all not 'free'), what REALLY makes us choose to either worship God or become an atheist?
If you say "WE determine that", then what exactly is "we" or "I"?

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

You will make that decision, won't you?

Indeed, but what is "you"? What is "me" exactly? By what is it controlled?

 

[Invalidusername]

Did David live under the sin nature? Yes. The repetition of repentance over sin was necessary.

And unfortunately we are still in the flesh. We cannot stop sinning. Deliberate or non-deliberate is a non-valid debate.

If someone is saying that he has a certain level of piousness and says "I never deliberately sin.", 1 John is saying this person is a liar and the truth is not in him. Take from that what you will.

 

[Anguspure]

I see. But if God created us free to either love or destroy, then were does our desire so sin and destroy come from?

From eating from the wrong tree. One little sin is all it takes to get the ball rolling. Once the relationship is broken then death is on our doorstep.

 

[Invalidusername]

Did David live under the sin nature? Yes. The repetition of repentance over sin was necessary.

Adding to my original comment: However we have the Spirit now which means we cannot live in unchecked rampant sin. This does not stop us from being slaves to the flesh and we will be until death. King David did not have a perfect sinless body and guess what? Nothing has changed. We do not neither.

 

[dreadnought]

Indeed, but what is "you"? What is "me" exactly? By what is it controlled?

Some things are self-evident, such as "you" and "me."

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

To love God with all our heart is a choice. Even when everything was perfect. He gave us free will in order for us to know that it is our choice to love Him. It is not the heresy of irresistible grace. After all, we are made in the image of God. God is sovereign; and he made man sovereign over his own thoughts and will.

We are now given all these trials and things to build our character. When we first come to Christ, the sin nature is replaced with the perfect nature Adam had before he sinned, PLUS the nature of God. We love what God loves and hate what God hates. It is now normal to hate sin, and we have no desire to sin. And by "sin" I mean lawlessness. They are of our will. They are in full knowledge it is against God's laws. This is something a person totally in love with God can't do.

That doesn't mean we don't have weaknesses toward each other. Those are called transgressions, not willful sins. And as we forgive others who transgress against us, God forgives our transgressions. The only thing you have to know about transgressions is that unlike willful sins, they are unintentional. In other words, not of our will.

The Old Testament teaches us the difference, and is our reference book. It is our schoolmaster. Beware of the ignorance that says, "sin is sin."

Leviticus 5:15
“If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the Lord, then he shall bring to the Lord as his trespass offering a ram without blemish from the flocks, with your valuation in shekels of silver according to the shekel of the sanctuary, as a trespass offering.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

When you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit and now walk in the Spirit, which is light, all your previous sin nature was taken away and replaced with a new nature at the time you repented and turned to Christ, but the blood of Jesus is still cleansing us of sin. What sin? Not lawlessness you wouldn't commit while in the light, so they are weaknesses/transgressions unintentionally committed. Yes, they are imperfections in front of a perfect God, but that is where Jesus comes in as our advocate. Beware of the other heresy that says Jesus is our advocate for willful sins.

I see. But if we love what God loves, then does love God sinful things?
Because I for example happen to like pornography, even though it is sinful. Then does that mean God loves that too? That cannot be the case, right?

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

Some things are self-evident, such as "you" and "me."

Honestly my friend, what "I" truly is, and what drives it is something that I cannot fathom.

 

[1stcenturylady]

And unfortunately we are still in the flesh. We cannot stop sinning. Deliberate or non-deliberate is a non-valid debate.

If someone is saying that he has a certain level of piousness and says "I never deliberately sin.", 1 John is saying this person is a liar and the truth is not in him. Take from that what you will.

That is unscriptural. I base my beliefs on the word of God, not false teachers that contradict the written Word to justify sin.

Romans 8:8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

So what does this mean? It means it is a test. If you have no power over sin, then, yes, you are in the flesh and can remain that way, but the wages of sin is death. But, if you do have power over sin, and have moved from death to life, then you know you are not in the flesh, but truly in the Spirit and belong to Christ and have eternal life.

 

[Invalidusername]

That is unscriptural. I base my beliefs on the word of God, not false teachers that contradict the written Word to justify sin.

Romans 8:8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

So what does this mean? It means it is a test. If you have no power over sin, then, yes, you are in the flesh and can remain that way, but the wages of sin is death. But, if you do have power over sin, then you know you are not in the flesh but truly in the Spirit and belong to Christ and have eternal life.

Then you are saying you do not sin. 1 John calls you a liar.

Paul also calls you a liar since he confessed about his struggles with the flesh.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Adding to my original comment: However we have the Spirit now which means we cannot live in unchecked rampant sin. This does not stop us from being slaves to the flesh and we will be until death. King David did not have a perfect sinless body and guess what? Nothing has changed. We do not neither.

If that were so, Jesus would never have come. David lived before Jesus and is not an example of the power of living without the sin nature.

 

[Deniz]

Fair point. All might does not mean all controlling. Convinced.

But what do you mean when you say we have free will? Aside from God's will, thoughts, feelings, brain-chemistry and external circumstances (which are all not 'free'), what REALLY makes us choose to either worship God or become an atheist?
If you say "WE determine that", then what exactly is "we" or "I"?

See, you keep asking this question, but I don't know what kind of an answer you're expecting; because I won't be able to give you a "scientific paper" on what your soul is, how it works, and what "being created in the image and likeness of God Himself" means with all the depth that surrounds it. I can't explain what your spirit is like I can tell you about a pencil; the Lord Himself says "you are fearfully and wonderfully made" (Psalm 139:14).

Why exactly do you ask this question? Are you really trying to figure out if you have free will or not? I think you very well know that you have free will, and the decisions you make are not forced upon you; but you on your own will decide. I personally know I'm not typing these because God is forcing me to. If I go around slapping people I don't like, it won't be because God forced me to either.

My thoughts, though they can be influenced, are my own. My feelings, though they can be influenced, are my own. "Brain chemistry" doesn't really mean anything. What makes me worship is seeing the Truth, and my spirit responding to the Truth. I was an atheist for 24 years of my life, and now my spirit which was made in the likeness of God rejoices in His presence and so I worship Him. I've made the decision to hold onto the hand of God that reached out to my life, and thus He has given me sight; and in the Light my spirit rejoices.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I see. But if we love what God loves, then does love God sinful things?
Because I for example happen to like pornography, even though it is sinful. Then does that mean God loves that too? That cannot be the case, right?

Of course not. You are looking at is backwards, that if you love pornography, God does too. No! If you love God, you will not love pornography. God hates pornography, so you will hate pornography also.

Jesus came to take away your sin nature. Will you let him save you from yourself, and become a new creature? You can't hate pornography on your own. He will save you from it, to where overnight, you will hate it. That is the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

I don't think we can know on this side all the answers to all the questions. But we do know that God's nature is to love. It's not just one of his attributes, it is according to John, who God is. Seems to me, God had two choices, when creating us. He could make us always obey, by force of his will, or he could give us freedom to disobey. Because he is love, he could not force us to love him back, and be true to his nature, so the possibility of evil had to exist. Evil at first was only the absence of God. But once Lucifer embraced sin, evil became an active entity that works against God. God allows evil to exist for now, so that some people can come to truly know and love him. As odd as it may seem, the only way to be free is to become God's person. Sin is always, always bondage. It is always ultimately empty. Sin is always rooted in pride, and God can never bless pride, because it is Satan's territory.

So sin is the absence of God. That is a beautiful answer.
Because that means that sin is not something that God has created,
Which in turn means that sin in and of itself isn't "bad". It is only bad in the eyes of God, who is good and did not create sin.
This answer satisfies me, because it means both sinning and not-sinning are not inherently good or bad. It is only God that says that.

Thank you for your response, my friend.

 

[Alithis]

Hello men and women of God! This is my first post here.

I have been thinking a lot lately about the nature of sin, and I would dearly appreciate it if you guys would help me with answering this question. So thank you in advance!

Here is my question. Plain and simply: "Is sinning bad?"
Of course we all assume that sinning is bad, because it is written in the bible, but there are some questions that lead me to doubt that. Namely...

"Why did God create evil and sin in this world?"
You could say that that God did not create us to do evil, but that he gave us free will, so that if we choose evil, we face the consequences and it we choose good, we are rewarded with God's grace.

But then here is my real question: "If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then why does he create people that he knows will sin? And is sinning then really bad?"
Let's say God creates a person and grants him free will. However, God also created that person with a mental instability / weak will (which, let's assume makes him prone to murderous acts). Subsequently, let's say God then also places that person in an environment with abusive parents at home and frequent bullying at school (which, let's assume, combined with his mental instability causes him to commit murder) And so, he shoots up his class. This is an example, but I'm sure cases like this have actually happened in real life.
In such a case, can the murderer then really be held responsible for his actions? I mean,
-(1) He was born and raised with triggers that would undoubtedly (to God) lead him to commit a murderous act.
-(2) God, while all-powerful and all-knowing knew he would murder, yet did nothing about the sinful act.
If God created the person's will and circumstance, knew the outcome of his sin, and did nohing about it, was is then truly 'bad' for the murderer to commit murder?

"Is sinning bad?" may sound like a strange question, but I am seriously pondering it, and I would appreciate it greatly if you fellow Christians would help me out. So thanks!

Greets, Kees

unfortunately the CF rules prevent me from giving honest reply

 

[Invalidusername]

If that were so, Jesus would never have come. David lived before Jesus and is not an example of the power of living without the sin nature.

I think you've sinned deliberately at one point or another. Probably recently.

If you deny this, the Bible says you are not being honest. We all sin.

However since we have the Spirit, we enter the process of sanctification where we transform to be more Christ like.


Another way of placing it: why does God need to discipline His children? Because of their unknown sins? They cannot even learn from their discipline if it's an unknown sin!

No. God disciplines His children when they indeed sin and knowingly sin. And it is to correct their behavior.

 

[dreadnought]

Honestly my friend, what "I" truly is, and what drives it is something that I cannot fathom.

A living being, one of the Lord's creations.

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

See, you keep asking this question, but I don't know what kind of an answer you're expecting; because I won't be able to give you a "scientific paper" on what your soul is, how it works, and what "being created in the image and likeness of God Himself" means with all the depth that surrounds it. I can't explain what your spirit is like I can tell you about a pencil; the Lord Himself says "you are fearfully and wonderfully made" (Psalm 139:14).

Why exactly do you ask this question? Are you really trying to figure out if you have free will or not? I think you very well know that you have free will, and the decisions you make are not forced upon you; but you on your own will decide. I personally know I'm not typing these because God is forcing me to. If I go around slapping people I don't like, it won't be because God forced me to either.

My thoughts, though they can be influenced, are my own. My feelings, though they can be influenced, are my own. "Brain chemistry" doesn't really mean anything. What makes me worship is seeing the Truth, and my spirit responding to the Truth. I was an atheist for 24 years of my life, and now my spirit which was made in the likeness of God rejoices in His presence and so I worship Him. I've made the decision to hold onto the hand of God that reached out to my life, and thus He has given me sight; and in the Light my spirit rejoices.

I respect the fact that you admit not to know the origin of the spirit.
Although this is exactly what I seek. I do not know if my thoughts and feelings are my own, because I do not know if something else inside of the thing I call "me" is controlling my actions.
As to why I ask these questions; I wish to know what I am and what it is that makes me want to sin. Then, I would like to figure out if that thing is something that God created (if he did, he would be responsible for all my actions, including my sinning), or if the origin and core of my free will is something entirely different from God (in which case I will doubt God's judgements on the nature of Good and Evil).
Does that make sense?

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

Of course not. You are looking at is backwards, that if you love pornography, God does too. No! If you love God, you will not love pornography. God hates pornography, so you will hate pornography also.

Jesus came to take away your sin nature. Will you let him save you from yourself, and become a new creature? You can't hate pornography on your own. He will save you from it, to where overnight, you will hate it. That is the power of the Holy Spirit.

But if God hates pornography and I love it, what does that say about me?

 

[Deniz]

Then you are saying you do not sin. 1 John calls you a liar.

Paul also calls you a liar since he confessed about his struggles with the flesh.

You might want to read 1. John again, to understand. John, by the Holy Spirit, isn't saying "you will always sin, nobody can be holy"; but that if you say you have no need of the Blood of Christ, if you haven't sinned and are a "good person who doesn't need a saviour" you are a liar.

1 John 1:6-10
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Doesn't say "I say all this but you are going to sin anyways" does it? It says "if" you sin, not "when" you sin, right?

1 John 2:6,
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 John 3:5-9
And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.