Is it truly bad to sin?

[Kees Hogenbirk]

The bible says sin is evil
People sin
God is all powerful and all knowing
Therefore sin isn't evil


Does this work?

I guess that's an answer to my question. Do you yourself believe it, though? If so, I can see why. If not, then why not?

 

[Loren T.]

I don't think we can know on this side all the answers to all the questions. But we do know that God's nature is to love. It's not just one of his attributes, it is according to John, who God is. Seems to me, God had two choices, when creating us. He could make us always obey, by force of his will, or he could give us freedom to disobey. Because he is love, he could not force us to love him back, and be true to his nature, so the possibility of evil had to exist. Evil at first was only the absence of God. But once Lucifer embraced sin, evil became an active entity that works against God. God allows evil to exist for now, so that some people can come to truly know and love him. As odd as it may seem, the only way to be free is to become God's person. Sin is always, always bondage. It is always ultimately empty. Sin is always rooted in pride, and God can never bless pride, because it is Satan's territory.

 

[BraveJoan14]

A brilliant answer, thank you so much. However, I do still have a few questions.
So if sin didn't come from God, then where did it come from? From the devils of Hell? But they were also created by God, right?
Also, if God didn't create sin, does that mean that God did NOT create EVERYTHING there is?

So, I may have not presented this very clearly. Sin and evil are simply a condition that is absent of God. It is the lack of being, so there is no creation of evil. Evil is a destruction and distortion of the good by Satan and original sin. So, you don't really "create" sin because it's the absence of being. I highly recommend reading St. Augustine's Confessions or some of Aquinas's writings on the subject. They're way better at explaining than me

 

[Invalidusername]

Are you saying you believe you commit willful sin when walking in the light? Think about it.

Also, reread the post you resonded to, as I edited into it, and may give you something to think about.

Repentance is part of walking in the light.

The Bible also states that if you claim to not sin you are a liar. I am pretty sure this includes both deliberate and non-deliberate sins since the NT does not make any distinction between the two.

The problem is you are advocating grace+works. You are basically saying, "Once you get saved, you are in grave deep danger of losing it the moment you make a mistake." I don't think that's Biblical in the remotest sense.

Whenever a believer sins, the goal of God is to obtain his repentance.

Or otherwise you are basically condemning King David, Moses, Abraham, and any other believer that committed disobedience at one point or another.

 

[Invalidusername]

Ah, a humble and brilliant answer my friend. Thank you.

I get what you're saying. So sin itself is a corruptive deviation from God's creation.
So then would you say that sin is something that God has no control over?
For example. If I make a car and sell it to a millionair, knowing that he will throw it of a building to impress some friends, I know what he's going to do from the get-go, yet I still sell him the car because I have no control over his actions.
Is it like that?

Also, if sin isn't a creation? Then what exactly is it? If it is not created, then how can it exist? Does sin exist in the first place? Or is it something other that 'being', apart from God and/or his control entirely?

Thank you so much for your time, and I look forward to your response.

I do not believe we can ever truly know. God will reveal it to us when we are ready for the truth.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Repentance is part of walking in the light.

The Bible also states that if you claim to not sin you are a liar. I am pretty sure this includes both deliberate and non-deliberate sins since the NT does not make any distinction between the two.

The problem is you are advocating grace+works. You are basically saying, "Once you get saved, you are in grave deep danger of losing it the moment you make a mistake." I don't think that's Biblical in the remotest sense.

Whenever a believer sins, the goal of God is to obtain his repentance.

Or otherwise you are basically condemning King David, Moses, Abraham, and any other believer that committed disobedience at one point or another.

Actually, you are thinking too small. Repentance is of the sin nature, itself. It is repentance with a capital (R). Only once is absolutely needed. The Christian life is not a powerless existence of repeated sin, repent, sin, repent syndrome that only our human understanding can grasp.

1 John 1:8-9 is a non believer seeing his own good works, and what he must do to be cleansed of all willful sin.

 

[Invalidusername]

Actually, you are thinking too small. Repentance is of the sin nature, itself. It is repentance with a capital (R). Only once is needed. The Christian life is not a powerless existence of repeated sin, repent, sin, repent syndrome that only our human understanding can grasp.

1 John 1:8-9 is a non believer seeing his own good works, and what he must do to be cleansed of all willful sin.

So then King David did not need to repent of his adultery and murder.

 

[dreadnought]

Indeed. Sometimes we hit a fork. But even though we don't particularly desire one option over the other, we still have to make a choice eventually right?
And my question then is: "Who makes that choice?" Is that God, or is that something within us that God has no control over?

We make the choice. I don't think the Lord has any desire to control us. He wants us to choose love over selfishness, but the decision is up to us.

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

First of all, my position is that God does not create evil. If we acknowledge God as an unchanging, eternal God, then good and evil have existed for as long as God has existed. That is to say, infinitely and eternally. Because God is good, His goodness has always existed. He didn't make goodness up, He is goodness. To say that He created goodness would imply that He was, at one time, not good, and that He had to invent moral goodness in order for it to exist. This isn't logical with all else that we know God to be (unchanging, eternal, and good). So therefore, goodness has existed for as long as God has existed.

This means we need to define what evil is. Evil is that which is morally not good, which also means that it has to not be of God, so it can't be from God, but it can be allowed by God. If God gives us the ability to choose between good and evil, that means that evil must be a concept that predates free will. It exists as an opposite of God/goodness, and when someone has free will, they are given permission by God to choose which they will serve (as opposed to us having no will of our own at all, in which case we wouldn't truly be human and made in God's image.) It is because of God's goodness and love that He makes us in His image, and we can only be made in His image if we have the ability to make moral choices.

To say "God makes people with the knowledge that they will sin, therefore sinning is not bad" is not logical. To give people the freedom to choose despite knowing the future outcomes and consequences of their choices, is simply part of the ultimate good that is free will. Think of it like this: say you and your spouse want to have a child. You are about to bring a human being into this world, in a world full of pain and suffering, but also hope and joy. You know that they will inflict suffering upon others and them-self, because that's what people do due to our imperfection. And maybe this frightens you so much, that you decide that it would be better if your child was mentally unable to make those choices at all. Would that be right or moral? Should you take away your child's ability to make any choices at all because they are going to use that ability to hurt others at some point? Of course not. But does that mean that when your child makes these choices, the suffering he is inflicting not truly bad? Of course not!

Even when we are raised in unhealthy or abhorrent environments, we are still capable of making right choices. A person being raised in an abusive home does not mean that they will murder others.Many people are raised in terrible environments, and still do not murder people. I know some abuse survivors who are wonderful people despite what they lived through. If we humans are as helpless to our environments and genetics as you are suggesting here, then by that logic, should not all people who are abused or mentally ill be horrible murderers? And yet, in spite of these sufferings, the majority of people that go through these things choose not to do such evil. If anything, this proves that we are not slaves to our brain chemistry or environments, and can still choose. The people who choose to do evil after having lived through such horrible things are simply choosing wrongly. They capacity to choose never leaves them. People can be inclined towards certain actions due to their brains or experiences, but they can and do still make the right choice. God allowing someone to make the wrong choice does not mean that that choice isn't wrong.

Wow, what a clear and extensive answer. Thank you so much!
I do still have a few questions, though.

First of all, I get that you say that God did not create good, because he IS goodness to begin with.
But how can it be that God did not create evil? That would mean that God DIDN'T create everything in existence, right?

Second of all, in response to the analogy of the child and his choices; If my future child would harm another person out of revenge, I would not blame him for his feelings, and the actions that those feelings triggered.
I would however talk with him about what he did, how it hurts both him and his victim, and how much I'm disappointed with his action. Also, I would do my best to help him make it right, and to make more preferable choices in the future.
But I would not BLAME him for the dark feelings in his heart, and the actions that arose from them. Because he did not choose to have those feelings.
So in that same sense I find it strange that God blames me for my sinning, because I too did not choose to have sinful feelings in my heart, and I have to work day in, day out to keep myself from not sinning, and sometimes I falter, and I do sin. So why should I be blamed for that? I understand that he is concerned and disappointed in me, but why is it bad what I did? Why am I to blame?

And finally, yes, there are indeed many people that choose for the light in the midst of darkness. However, are those people not 'lucky' to be granted such a strong will by God? And are the people that choose darkness over light not simple 'unlucky' because God didn't bestow them with a strong sense of will? If anybody could make any choice, then why would not everybody choose for the light all the time?

Thank you so much again for your reply. I look forward to yours. Thank you!

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

We make the choice. I don't think the Lord has any desire to control us. He wants us to choose love over selfishness, but the decision is up to us.

So God doesn't control us? Then does that mean God isn't all-mighty?
Moreover, if God doesn't control us, then what inside of us DOES control our own will?

 

[Invalidusername]

Wow, what a clear and extensive answer. Thank you so much!
I do still have a few questions, though.

First of all, I get that you say that God did not create good, because he IS goodness to begin with.
But how can it be that God did not create evil? That would mean that God DIDN'T create everything in existence, right?

Second of all, in response to the analogy of the child and his choices; If my future child would harm another person out of revenge, I would not blame him for his feelings, and the actions that those feelings triggered.
I would however talk with him about what he did, how it hurts both him and his victim, and how much I'm disappointed with his action. Also, I would do my best to help him make it right, and to make more preferable choices in the future.
But I would not BLAME him for the dark feelings in his heart, and the actions that arose from them. Because he did not choose to have those feelings.
So in that same sense I find it strange that God blames me for my sinning, because I too did not choose to have sinful feelings in my heart, and I have to work day in, day out to keep myself from not sinning, and sometimes I falter, and I do sin. So why should I be blamed for that? I understand that he is concerned and disappointed in me, but why is it bad what I did? Why am I to blame?

And finally, yes, there are indeed many people that choose for the light in the midst of darkness. However, are those people not 'lucky' to be granted such a strong will by God? And are the people that choose darkness over light not simple 'unlucky' because God didn't bestow them with a strong sense of will? If anybody could make any choice, then why would not everybody choose for the light all the time?

Thank you so much again for your reply. I look forward to yours. Thank you!

In a way God kind of did that when He told Adam and Eve that they "would surely die" if they ate the fruit. He told them the consequences and they did it anyways.

And even though God is sovereign, people have free will and they are responsible for their choices. I wish I had the answers and the reasons I'm posting here is because I've had the same questions.

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

Don't worry, God does not mind you asking these questions. We all ask them at some point, if we think deep enough to contemplate the nature of things. People have asked them and tried to come up with solid answers for thousands of years. As for the free will question, the majority of Christians who study the Word do come to the conclusion that free will is real. Of course, it's limited to our circumstances, although this can be used as an excuse, too. If your circumstances are causing you to sin, you should be looking to change them. As Jesus said, if something offends you, get rid of it. If your computer causes you to watch x rated movies, don't use the computer when you are tempted, that sort of thing.
Scripture says if we are tempted to sin, God also always provides a way out, so, no He isn't to blame. But if you do sin, we have Jesus on our side, asking for our forgiveness when we confess, and that is good news. If you are among the redeemed, sin has no control over you. The only control it has is what you give it.

I see, but if we truly are the master of our own choices, then what are 'we' exactly?
What is the thing inside us that steers us to either good or evil?
If we, the innermost choice-makers are not ultimately controlled by God, thoughts, feelings, brain-chemistry or environmental factors, then what are we exactly? What is left?
What inside of us makes us do what we do?

 

[dreadnought]

So God doesn't control us? Then does that mean God isn't all-mighty?
Moreover, if God doesn't control us, then what inside of us DOES control our own will?

Being all-mighty doesn't mean controlling people. It means teaching people how to be happy.

We control our will.

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

In a way God kind of did that when He told Adam and Eve that they "would surely die" if they ate the fruit. He told them the consequences and they did it anyways.

And even though God is sovereign, people have free will and they are responsible for their choices. I wish I had the answers and the reasons I'm posting here is because I've had the same questions.

I see. I greatly respect your humbleness about not knowing the answers to questions about the origin of evil and free will. A simple "I don't know" is satisfying to hear, because it makes me feel my thoughts feelings aren't weird by any means.
Then we stop here. Thank you dearly for your time, my friend.

 

[Deniz]

So God doesn't control us? Then does that mean God isn't all-mighty?
Moreover, if God doesn't control us, then what inside of us DOES control our own will?

No, God does not control us as if we are robots, He has given us free will. How does this make God "not almighty?" Is it any sign of superiority of a parent to brainwash a child and control all of his actions, just because the parent can?

You are a human being, created in the likeness and the image of God. Your own spirit, you control yourself with your God given free will. God can influence you for good, speak to you through your conscience, nature, other people, warn you through His Spirit and word but ultimately the decision is yours to make.

James 1:13-16
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

 

[keyman]

I am sorry Keyman, but I don't get that. Even though Jesus died for our sins, aren't we still slaves of our sins? After all, I as a person still sin every once in a while. And don't we all?
So our sins are still bad, right?

Before we were born-again we were slaves to sin. It was our nature to sin.
But now we are New Creations. The old man has been crucified with Christ. We don't have to sin anymore.
1 Corinthians 10:13, Galatians 5:16, Ephesians 4:22-24
Now if we sin it is because we chose to sin.
And the more we get to know Jesus the Word we will be free from sin. John 8:31-32
You should do a study of Romans 6. Focus on the first 16 verses.

 

[Kees Hogenbirk]

Being all-mighty doesn't mean controlling people. It means teaching people how to be happy.

We control our will.

Fair point, your first sentence. Convinced. Allmight doesn't equal all-controlling.
However, I still have questions about your second point. "We control our own will." Then what is "we" or "I"? How is it determined whether I choose to worship God or become an atheist?

 

[keyman]

So God doesn't control us? Then does that mean God isn't all-mighty?
Moreover, if God doesn't control us, then what inside of us DOES control our own will?

God does not control us against our will.
He guides us if we let Him. Proverbs 3:5-6

 

[dreadnought]

Fair point, your first sentence. Convinced. Allmight doesn't equal all-controlling.
However, I still have questions about your second point. "We control our own will." Then what is "we" or "I"? How is it determined whether I choose to worship God or become an atheist?

You will make that decision, won't you?

 

[1stcenturylady]

So then King David did not need to repent of his adultery and murder.

Did David live under the sin nature? Yes. The repetition of repentance over sin was necessary.