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Ellen White, inspired author to SDA, on Picture idols

tall73

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Your timing of the statements are irrelavent. Anyone can make an idol of something at any time making the statements relavent. An idol is something that takes up all our time and attention away from God and his Word. If it is not doing so then it is not an idol.

I think he was asking because she talked so much about using money for picture idols that could be used for God's work, and then sat for so many pictures.

So he was wondering if she changed her mind on the picture idols.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I think he was asking because she talked so much about using money for picture idols that could be used for God's work, and then sat for so many pictures.

So he was wondering if she changed her mind on the picture idols.

Once again what is an idol? An idol is something that takes up all our time and attention away from God and his Word. If it is not doing so then it is not an idol.
 
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tall73

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You know very well why I am asking you because it makes your whole OP fall down.

Why would my OP fall down? It was mostly quotes of Ellen White commenting about people who take lots of pictures, sitting again and again for them, and using money intended for God's work on photos.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Why would my OP fall down? It was mostly quotes of Ellen White commenting about people who take lots of pictures, sitting again and again for them, and using money intended for God's work on photos.

Your trying to put an interpretation to the EGW statements to make out that EGW believes photograhy is an idol and she was doing the same thing when this is not what these statements were talking about.

The statements you provided from EGW were in relation to photography to the masses as a new thing and how for some it was taking all their time and attention away from God and they were making it an idol. This was the purpose of those messages for the time period given.

An idol is anything that takes our time and attention away from God and his Word. If your time and attention is not taken away from God and his Word then it is no longer an idol. Your op has indeed fallen down.

I will leave this between you and God.
 
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tall73

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Ellen G. White seems like a hypocrite telling people their photos are idols while ordering expensive photos for herself, unless at some point she stopped calling them idols and started using them more herself.

Here is only a partial selection of photos of Ellen White. You can find more at the archive near the first of this thread. When you click on them they list the year.

They seem to span a range of time.


1859
Gallery | People | E. G. White portrait (oval), c. 1859, (H. C. White, photographer, Monroe, Wis.)

1865
Gallery | People | White family portrait with Adelia P., ca. 1865


1868
Gallery | People | James and Ellen White, c. 1868


1872
Gallery | People | E. G. White with sister, Caroline Clough, July 1872 (A. W. Barker, Ottawa, Kan.)

1875
Gallery | People | E. G. White, portrait (profile), c. 1875 (Dunham & Lathrop)

1878
Gallery | People | E. G. White, seated with letter (partial length), c. 1878 (S. F. Miller, photographer, Battle Creek, Michigan)

1899
Gallery | People | E. G. White portrait, seated with book, c 1899, Australia
 
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tall73

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Your trying to put an interpretation to the EGW statements to make out that EGW believes photograhy is an idol and she was doing the same thing when this is not what these statements were talking about.

The statements you provided from EGW were in relation to photography to the masses as a new thing and how for some it was taking all their time and attention away from God and they were making it an idol. This was the purpose of those messages for the time period given.

An idol is anything that takes our time and attention away from God and his Word. If your time and attention is not taken away from God and his Word then it is no longer an idol. Your op has indeed fallen down. I will leave this between you and God.

Now, that is not true! You are misunderstanding. She also said all the money spent made it an idol as it should go to mission work.
 
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tall73

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The statements you provided from EGW were in relation to photography to the masses as a new thing and how for some it was taking all their time and attention away from God and they were making it an idol. This was the purpose of those messages for the time period given.

So it was new in 1868, 1891, and 1901?

But we have pictures of Ellen White from 1859. You are trying to dismiss what she said, and reinterpret it.
 
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Bob S

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The following is not in any way taken out of context. Ellen's "instructor" is the one who told her that photographs are idols as highlighted below.

Ellen surely didn't have a very good memory did she? She spent, in today's money, thousands of dollars on herself and family and told others as seen below that they were sinners for having their photographs.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}
As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 3}
This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 4}

Ellen, it seems, was obsessed with her flock's money. many of her "I saw" were about money. Bicycles were sinful to own because the flock spent money on them, money that she wanted control of just like she did of their minds. Mind control was the name of the game. Getting control made puppets of the flock. Getting control meant more money. Why do SDAs tell us all that Ellen wrote about pictures is not relevant today? If pictures were idols then why are they not now?

I will be chastised for writing this telling me that what I wrote is not true. I didn't make it up, I only copied and pasted what she wrote as did Tall.
 
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Bob S

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Your trying to put an interpretation to the EGW statements to make out that EGW believes photograhy is an idol and she was doing the same thing when this is not what these statements were talking about.
That is not true now is it?

Photography is not the idol, photographs according to Ellen's "instructor" are idols. The person taking the photographs was not the sinner, it was people like Ellen who were the sinners for purchasing them
 
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tall73

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The person taking the photographs was not the sinner, it was people like Ellen who were the sinners for purchasing them

Well, if you had the right attitude about spending lots of time and money on pictures, surely it was then ok!
 
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tall73

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Your trying to put an interpretation to the EGW statements to make out that EGW believes photograhy is an idol and she was doing the same thing when this is not what these statements were talking about.

You would need to explain why these statements do not apply to Ellen White:

These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God's money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God's service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God's word.

Why didn't Ellen White spare the dollars she spent on photography? Was her money not sacredly devoted?


Every dollar is required in the work of saving souls. The money invested by the professed people of God in getting pictures made of human faces would support several missionaries in the field. Many small streams, when put together, swell into a large river.

If every dollar is required, why didn't she put the money from her photography toward missionaries?


We embezzle our Lord's goods when we use for selfish pleasure the means which should be used to proclaim the last message of warning. If you spend the Lord's money for self-gratification, how can you expect Him to continue to bestow His goods on you? How does the Master regard those who selfishly invest His money in photographs? That very money could have been used to purchase reading-matter to send to those in the darkness of ignorance.

Why did she selfishly invest her money in photographs instead of literature for those in darkness?


Was she robbing God of money by buying photographs?

Should not the money thus spent have been used to bless humanity, to relieve the suffering, to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry? Should it not have been placed in the Lord's treasury to advance His cause and build up His kingdom in the earth? This matter is of great importance, and it is urged upon you to save from the sin of idolatry.

Why didn't she use the money she spent on photographs to feed the hungry?


And why did she say:

After going from home to home, and seeing the many photographs, I was instructed to warn our people against this evil. This much we can do for God. We can put these picture-idols out of sight. They have no power for good, but interpose between God and the soul.

But then also say:

If you have Father's pictures, please bring them. I want to show them. My pocket album I left at Healdsburg.—Letter 15, 1882, p. 1. (To W. C. White, May 23, 1882).
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You would need to explain why these statements do not apply to Ellen White:
It has already been explained and your OP has fallen down.

Your trying to put an interpretation to the EGW statements to make out that EGW believes photograhy is an idol and she was doing the same thing when this is not what these statements were talking about.

The statements you provided from EGW were in relation to photography to the masses as a new thing and how for some it was taking all their time and attention away from God and they were making it an idol. This was the purpose of those messages for the time period given.

An idol is anything that takes our time and attention away from God and his Word. If your time and attention is not taken away from God and his Word then it is no longer an idol. Your op has indeed fallen down. Your distorting what she said. This is sad for you.
Why didn't Ellen White spare the dollars she spent on photography? Was her money not sacredly devoted?
Why was she making photography an idol? Was she spending excessive amounts of money on it? Prove it. You have not. What is an idol? Was it taking up all her time and attention away from God and his Word?

An idol is something that takes up all our time and attention away from God and his Word.

All your doing is the same thing you always do by spending all your time and attention trying to take EGW statements out of context and apply an interpretation to them they are not saying. This is sad for you.
If every dollar is required, why didn't she put the money from her photography toward missionaries?
Just more twisting of statements I see. Where does it say every dollar was required for God's Work? How would they live?
Why did she selfishly invest her money in photographs instead of literature for those in darkness?
Why where does it say how much money she spend on photographs? It doesn't! Your writing into this something the statements do not even mention.

Was she robbing God of money by buying photographs? Why didn't she use the money she spent on photographs to feed the hungry?
Where does it say why was going out spending large amounts of money buying photographs? It doesn't. In fact most of these were given to her.


Thanks for this thread it is a good example of what you do with EGW statements.


This is indeed sad for you.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The following is not in any way taken out of context. Ellen's "instructor" is the one who told her that photographs are idols as highlighted below.

Ellen surely didn't have a very good memory did she? She spent, in today's money, thousands of dollars on herself and family and told others as seen below that they were sinners for having their photographs.

During the night I was sorely distressed. A great burden rested upon me. I had been pleading with God to work in behalf of His people. My attention was called to the money which they have invested in photographs. I was taken from house to house, through the homes of our people, and as I went from room to room, my Instructor said, “Behold the idols which have accumulated!” {RH September 10, 1901, par. 1}
As I visited the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantelpieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, “Take these things hence.” I have been instructed that these pictures are as so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should be sacredly devoted to God. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 2}
These photographs cost money. Is it consistent for us, knowing the work that is to be done at this time, to spend God’s money in producing pictures of our own faces and the faces of our friends? Should not every dollar that we can spare be used in the upbuilding of the cause of God? These pictures take money that should be sacredly devoted to God’s service; and they divert the mind from the truths of God’s word. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 3}
This making and exchanging photographs is a species of idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Those who claim to believe in Christ need to realize that they are to reflect His image. It is His likeness that is to be kept before the mind. The words that are spoken are to be freighted with heavenly inspiration. {RH September 10, 1901, par. 4}

Ellen, it seems, was obsessed with her flock's money. many of her "I saw" were about money. Bicycles were sinful to own because the flock spent money on them, money that she wanted control of just like she did of their minds. Mind control was the name of the game. Getting control made puppets of the flock. Getting control meant more money. Why do SDAs tell us all that Ellen wrote about pictures is not relevant today? If pictures were idols then why are they not now?

I will be chastised for writing this telling me that what I wrote is not true. I didn't make it up, I only copied and pasted what she wrote as did Tall.

Hello Bob,

All your doing is copying and pasting your friend. Copying your friend here is only twisting these EGW quotes, trying to make out that EGW views photography is an idol. That is not the true at all. She says that some were making phtography an idol and that is what she was responding to. She further states that anything that takes up our time and attention away from God we make an idol.

"Now if the pictures made have a tendency to separate the affections from God, and are worshiped in the place of God, they are idols. Have those who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ exalted these things above God, and given their affections to them? Has their love for treasures filled a place in their hearts that Jesus should occupy? Have those who have burned up all their pictures of friends and any kind of pictures they happened to have, come up to a higher state of consecration for this act, and do they seem in words, in deportment, and in soul, to be ennobled, elevated, more heavenly minded? Is their experience richer than before? Do they pray more, and believe with a more perfect faith after this consuming sacrifice which they have made? Have they come up into the mount? Has the holy fire been kindled in their hearts, giving new zeal and greater devotion to God and His work than before? Has a live coal from off the altar of sacrifice touched their hearts and their lips? By their fruits you can tell the character of the work."—Manuscript 50, 1886, 3, 4. (“Economy,” July, 1886.)

Anyone can make idols of anything whether photography, money, pleasure, or anything that takes our time and attention away from God and his Word. This was the essance of the EGW statements posted as the timing was when photography was the big thing with all the masses at the time.

Your only distorting context and application of the messages given to those who were making an idol of photography at the time the messages were given.

Funny when people run out of scripture to share they want to go to EGW quotes to try and find something there. Only God's Word is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and tradtitions of men that break the commandments of God.

Hope this helps Bob.
 
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tall73

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It has already been explained and your OP has fallen down.

Your trying to put an interpretation to the EGW statements to make out that EGW believes photograhy is an idol and she was doing the same thing when this is not what these statements were talking about.

The statements you provided from EGW were in relation to photography to the masses as a new thing and how for some it was taking all their time and attention away from God and they were making it an idol. This was the purpose of those messages for the time period given.

You have not explained how it was new in 1901 when we have pictures of Ellen White in this very thread back to 1859.

She gave statements over a thirty some year period.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You have not explained how it was new in 1901 when we have pictures of Ellen White in this very thread back to 1859.

She gave statements over a thirty some year period.

Indeed it has been explained. What is an idol?

Your OP has been shown for what it is. You are taking EGW quotes out of context and applying interpretations to them that they are not saying. This is what you have been doing in nearly all of your posts in this forum. This is sad for you.

Do you have any scripture to share?
 
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tall73

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Indeed it has been explained. What is an idol?

If you say it was new, and we point out that photography was around for decades by the time she is saying this in 1901, then it is not answered by saying "what is an idol."

You made a claim that she was saying it was new. Back up your claim. You need to explain how it was new every time she talked about it, over decades.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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If you say it was new, and we point out that photography was around for decades by the time she is saying this in 1901, then it is not answered by saying "what is an idol."

You made a claim that she was saying it was new. Back up your claim. You need to explain how it was new every time she talked about it, over decades.

Same question already answered....
tall73 said: The OP contains statements saying such in 1868, 1891, 1901

Reply was

LGW replied. "Your timing of the statements are irrelavent. Anyone can make an idol of something at any time making the statements relavent. An idol is something that takes up all our time and attention away from God and his Word. If it is not doing so then it is not an idol. It seems from the very statements you have posted that you do not know what an idol is." post # 20

This is only repitiation and has been answered already.

What is an idol?

.
 
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tall73

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Same question already answered....


Reply was

LGW replied. "Your timing of the statements are irrelavent. Anyone can make an idol of something at any time making the statements relavent. An idol is something that takes up all our time and attention away from God and his Word. If it is not doing so then it is not an idol. It seems from the very statements you have posted that you do not know what an idol is." post # 20

This is only repitiation and has been answered already.

What is an idol?

.


And this is why folks do not take seriously your claims that we are distorting or taking out of context. You made an allegation that she was addressing a new practice.

When it was pointed out to you that she has statements ranging decades, you failed to address how it could be new each time.

Now your thought about what constitutes an idol does not answer how something that was around for decades was new. Your claiming it does simply shows you unwillingness to address the specifics. You can say we are repeating ,but we are repeating our calls for you to explain your assertion that it was new, every time she addressed it, over a period of decades.
 
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