OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[Major1]

There are a couple of things to be said for the above.
I read the scriptues and I don't add or subtract anything to them. It seems like your adding to them.

Paul said it is appointed for man to die once and then comes the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27

Is there scripture that contradicts this??

Also, I don't remember Jesus speaking about this judging idea except to say the He and the Father will judge. In some places it says that Jesus will judge and sometimes it says that God will judge.
Mathew 25:31
John 5:22
James 5:9
These verses sound like Jesus will judge one time, at death I believe.

God is the judge.
Hebrews 12:23
Hebrews 10:30
Romans 2:16

I've never studied eschatology and know little about it.
But it seems from the above verses that men will die and then they will be judged by their works. Even those that believed in Jesus because of what He said in Mathew 7:23. Not all who cry, Lord, Lord will be saved but those who do the will of the Father.
Mathew 7:21

1 Peter 4:17-19 also sounds to me like all will be judged according to what they do.
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? 19Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

IOW, I don't see all this talk about just believing in Jesus and all will be right. I see that we are also to obey and live a good life in service to God -- however that may be.

My dear sister. I am as aware of Deut. 4:2 as is any other believer and I never have added one single thing to the Word of God.

I would never do so as the Last verse in the Bible says that to do so brings the curse of God. Now, because YOU personally have never heard of a Bible doctrine or teaching is no reason to assume anyone has added to the Scriptures.

Hebrews 9:27 is not a contradiction. The correct and literal understanding of this verse is that "since it is appointed unto men to die once only." The object of this is to illustrate the fact that Christ died but once for sin, and that is done by showing that the most important events pertaining to man occur but once. Thus, it is with "death." That does not, and cannot occur many times.
"Barnes' Notes on the Bible".

YOU said...……….
"Also, I don't remember Jesus speaking about this judging idea except to say the He and the Father will judge. In some places it says that Jesus will judge and sometimes it says that God will judge."

The Bible however says JESUS IS GOD and in John 5:22...………..
"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted ALL judgment to the Son".

You said...………..
I've never studied eschatology and know little about it.

I have on the other hand get it about 40 years of study resulting in several productions and commentaries. I do not say that to mean I know more than any one else but I am familier with the process.

Matthew 7:23 is NOT a referreance to believers at all. The ones in view are the LOST who did not profess Jesus Christ. CONTEXT is in verse 15...……
"Beware of FALSE prophets which come to you in sheeps clothing but inside they are wolves".

I Peter 4:17-19 is all about Christians believing that Christ has paid the penalty for YOUR sins so that YOU do not have to judged for your sin. He paid what YOU owed so that you are set free from the coming judgment of the lost.

The 1st Resurrection is BEFORE the Tribulation and it is called the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is only for truly born again believers and it is seen 1st in 2 Corinthians 5:10.....
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

Scripture then says in II Timothy 4: 8 that ……….
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord (Jesus), the righteous judge, shall give me at (on) that day (the day of His appearing): and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing."

Those of us who are "perennial" understand that the RAPTURE will remove all Born Again believers of the Lord Jesus Christ and then we will immediately be in the presence of the Lord so this even then must be BEFORE the 7 Year Tribulation.

The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT is the 2nd Resurrection and it is AFTER the 1000
year rule of Christ and it is only for the wicked lost of all the ages. They will be judged from their works but because they died in their sins without Jesus Christ they will all be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the 2nd death.

Revelation 20:11-15 .....
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Yes......we are to try and do good deeds and work for the Lord AFTER we are saved. But the focus here on this thread is that WE MUST DO SO TO BE SAVED OR TO SAY SAVED and that teaching is not Biblical.

We are saved by FAITH in Jesus Christ and not one single thing that we can do saves us or keeps us saved.

Let me ask you a question. Now THINK.

If you were a lost person right now, today and I explained the gospel to you and you said you wanted to be saved and you accepted Jesus as your Saviour and tonight you died without doing anything at all for Christ.

Do you think that according to what you have said, and what you have agreed Mr. Bond said...………….will you go to heaven???? Now tell me why you say that.

 

[Major1]

There are a couple of things to be said for the above.
I read the scriptues and I don't add or subtract anything to them. It seems like your adding to them.

Paul said it is appointed for man to die once and then comes the judgement.
Hebrews 9:27

Is there scripture that contradicts this??

Also, I don't remember Jesus speaking about this judging idea except to say the He and the Father will judge. In some places it says that Jesus will judge and sometimes it says that God will judge.
Mathew 25:31
John 5:22
James 5:9
These verses sound like Jesus will judge one time, at death I believe.

God is the judge.
Hebrews 12:23
Hebrews 10:30
Romans 2:16

I've never studied eschatology and know little about it.
But it seems from the above verses that men will die and then they will be judged by their works. Even those that believed in Jesus because of what He said in Mathew 7:23. Not all who cry, Lord, Lord will be saved but those who do the will of the Father.
Mathew 7:21

1 Peter 4:17-19 also sounds to me like all will be judged according to what they do.
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? 19Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.

IOW, I don't see all this talk about just believing in Jesus and all will be right. I see that we are also to obey and live a good life in service to God -- however that may be.

Double post!

 

[Major1]

It refers to the teacher's work.
I'll answer more tomorrow. Too tired right now...
Read it again...the Apostles are laying a foundation,,,in that sense they are "teachers".

No need to read it again as it has not changed. It says "IF ANY MANS WORK...…."!

The word TEACHER is not found there.

 

[Major1]

I used to live that way. I was so often in a state of despair, because I knew I wasn't fooling myself, I failed every day. I had become convinced that one of these days God just was going to say "enough is enough" and be done with me.

That would be impossible for me to live that way. I am so glad that you have grown in faith and knowledge!

 

[amariselle]

That would be impossible for me to live that way. I am so glad that you have grown in faith and knowledge!

As am I. Now, however, I am constantly accused of telling others not to obey Jesus, even though I have never said any such thing. I simply know Who's obedience and perfect sacrifice has saved me, and it's not mine.

 

[GodsGrace101]

My dear sister. I am as aware of Deut. 4:2 as is any other believer and I never have added one single thing to the Word of God.

I would never do so as the Last verse in the Bible says that to do so brings the curse of God. Now, because YOU personally have never heard of a Bible doctrine or teaching is no reason to assume anyone has added to the Scriptures.

Hebrews 9:27 is not a contradiction. The correct and literal understanding of this verse is that "since it is appointed unto men to die once only." The object of this is to illustrate the fact that Christ died but once for sin, and that is done by showing that the most important events pertaining to man occur but once. Thus, it is with "death." That does not, and cannot occur many times.
"Barnes' Notes on the Bible".

YOU said...……….
"Also, I don't remember Jesus speaking about this judging idea except to say the He and the Father will judge. In some places it says that Jesus will judge and sometimes it says that God will judge."

The Bible however says JESUS IS GOD and in John 5:22...………..
"Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted ALL judgment to the Son".

You said...………..
I've never studied eschatology and know little about it.

I have on the other hand get it about 40 years of study resulting in several productions and commentaries. I do not say that to mean I know more than any one else but I am familier with the process.

Matthew 7:23 is NOT a referreance to believers at all. The ones in view are the LOST who did not profess Jesus Christ. CONTEXT is in verse 15...……
"Beware of FALSE prophets which come to you in sheeps clothing but inside they are wolves".

I Peter 4:17-19 is all about Christians believing that Christ has paid the penalty for YOUR sins so that YOU do not have to judged for your sin. He paid what YOU owed so that you are set free from the coming judgment of the lost.

The 1st Resurrection is BEFORE the Tribulation and it is called the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is only for truly born again believers and it is seen 1st in 2 Corinthians 5:10.....
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

Scripture then says in II Timothy 4: 8 that ……….
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord (Jesus), the righteous judge, shall give me at (on) that day (the day of His appearing): and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing."

Those of us who are "perennial" understand that the RAPTURE will remove all Born Again believers of the Lord Jesus Christ and then we will immediately be in the presence of the Lord so this even then must be BEFORE the 7 Year Tribulation.

The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT is the 2nd Resurrection and it is AFTER the 1000
year rule of Christ and it is only for the wicked lost of all the ages. They will be judged from their works but because they died in their sins without Jesus Christ they will all be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the 2nd death.

Revelation 20:11-15 .....
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Yes......we are to try and do good deeds and work for the Lord AFTER we are saved. But the focus here on this thread is that WE MUST DO SO TO BE SAVED OR TO SAY SAVED and that teaching is not Biblical.

We are saved by FAITH in Jesus Christ and not one single thing that we can do saves us or keeps us saved.

Let me ask you a question. Now THINK.

If you were a lost person right now, today and I explained the gospel to you and you said you wanted to be saved and you accepted Jesus as your Saviour and tonight you died without doing anything at all for Christ.

Do you think that according to what you have said, and what you have agreed Mr. Bond said...………….will you go to heaven???? Now tell me why you say that.

Too much for now.
Tomorrow...

 

[GodsGrace101]

Double post!

No need to read it again as it has not changed. It says "IF ANY MANS WORK...…."!

The word TEACHER is not found there.

The Apostle's work was to TEACH!

 

[EmSw]

Of course not. However, we are saved by a living faith alone. The works that accompany a living faith in no way merit our salvation. They are the result of salvation, not the cause. No doubt they define our faith as being living; however Ephesians 2:9 in its context is clear: we are not saved by works.

re #745.

Here's your problem, just. Any way you slice it, without works of charity a man is not saved. You can say 'as a result of faith', or 'based upon faith', 'faith will produce works', or however you like to word it. Without works of charity a man is not saved.

 

[EmSw]

It is certainly not a lie; but you are in denial of the plain testimony of what Jesus said in Matthew 5:48.

Also, there are plenty of people like-minded to what I believe in this very thread.

Matthew 5:48 is not about keeping His commandments and you know it. It is about a person being perfect by doing good to his enemy, just as God does good things to the evil.

If you want to make up a story that it is talking about keeping His commandments perfectly, then I'll play along. You have to believe perfectly and have perfect faith to be saved. Since you don't believe perfectly all the time, you can't be saved by your imperfect faith.

Oh, and you must have the perfect interpretation of all the Bible, and pray perfectly, and worship perfectly, and say everything perfectly, and find the perfect church to attend, or else it's the lake of fire for you.

Remember, you are the one who referred to Matthew 5:48. So, if you aren't perfect, justbyfaith, you are doomed. It's the end for you; there is no hope unless you are perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.

Don't you like that? Is that what you mean, when you say keep His commandments perfectly? Don't you actually mean do all things, say all things, and think all things perfectly? So, have you been perfect today? yesterday? how about tomorrow, think you will be perfect?

 

[EmSw]

So @EmSw, you have never done evil? Because if you have, the verse you are quoting condemns you to the resurrection of damnation.

Oh yes, I've done evil. And no, that verse does not condemn me.

Perhaps you do not know that those who have done evil means those who practice evil. Practicing evil is continually doing it. The New Testament is filled with passages stating the consequence of evil is damnation. Some believe this, but then again, some don't.

 

[EmSw]

One cannot say they keep His commandments if one does not keep them perfectly. If we offend in one, we offend in all. If the keeping of said commandments is required for salvation, then those commandments must be kept perfectly. God will not accept anything other than a sacrifice free of spot or blemish.

It's nice to know what your thoughts are on perfection. Fortunately for those who believe what Jesus said, those aren't Jesus' thoughts. I see so many on this forum adding to what Jesus said. Get in line; you have added to what Jesus said.

 

[EmSw]

Let's back up and look at the context of that verse, so that we can understand what Jesus meant.

John 5:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, how does Jesus teach that one passes "from death to life"? By behaving well enough? Or by hearing His word and believing? (Remember, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God).

In context the "good" that is done is to hear the word of Christ and believe. The "evil" is, by contrast, is unbelief and rejecting the Son in whom life is found.

These verses do not speak of works.

Do you not understand that it is believing and doing good?

Sorry, doing good is not hearing the word of Christ; again, you made that up. So many people make things up and add to what Jesus said. It's would be laughable if it weren't so serious.

If you tell your child to do good, are you only talking about believing you? Or do you actually expect him/her to do good? Don't you see that your child has to believe you and then do good.

 

[EmSw]

Of course that is true but it is also just as true that you completely ignored a clear and polite question simply because you wanted to.

NO ONE, NOT one single person has said anything about NOT wanting to keep the commandments of God. I have said now about 5 times that every single Christian should try and keep the commandments of God. The problem is that it is impossible to do so.

And again, there is NO Scriptures which you can provide, that when taken by context say that works are needed for salvation. That is YOUR theology and it is not Bible truth in any way.

YOU are simple wrong in your theology my friend. You can say it over and over and over but that will not make it so.

To believe what you are espousing, we will have to remove literally hundreds of Scriptures from the Bible.

Since you don't believe what Jesus said, I can see why John 5:28, 29 would be a thorn in your side. Are you one of those who does not know what 'to do good' means?

And, which of Jesus commandments is impossible for you? Or, are there two or three? Jesus never said they were impossible to keep. Again, you made this up.

 

[amariselle]

It's nice to know what your thoughts are on perfection. Fortunately for those who believe what Jesus said, those aren't Jesus' thoughts. I see so many on this forum adding to what Jesus said. Get in line; you have added to what Jesus said.

If you’re going to make that accusation, you should be able to support it. Demonstrate clearly which part of my post added to what Jesus said.

You disagree that if we offend in one we offend in all? Scripture confirms this.

Or is your problem with God not accepting anything other than a sacrifice without spot or blemish?

Again, scripture confirms this. That is why the Israelites were commanded to only offer sacrifices that were without spot or blemish. It all pointed to Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world.

And, as I’m sure you also know, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. And we know that Scripture speaks of Jesus’ blood shed on the cross, because it is impossible for the blood of sheep and goats to take away sin.

 

[EmSw]

If you’re going to make that accusation, you should be able to support it. Demonstrate clearly which part of my post added to what Jesus said.

You disagree that if we offend in one we offend in all? Scripture confirms this.

Or is your problem with God not accepting anything other than a sacrifice without spot or blemish?

Again, scripture confirms this. That is why the Israelites were commanded to only offer sacrifices that were without spot or blemish. It all pointed to Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world.

And, as I’m sure you also know, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin. And we know that Scripture speaks of Jesus’ blood shed on the cross, because it is impossible for the blood of sheep and goats to take away sin.

Listen, you added that we must keep His commandments perfectly. You added perfectly and you know it.

 

[amariselle]

Do you not understand that it is believing and doing good?

Sorry, doing good is not hearing the word of Christ; again, you made that up. So many people make things up and add to what Jesus said. It's would be laughable if it weren't so serious.

If you tell your child to do good, are you only talking about believing you? Or do you actually expect him/her to do good? Don't you see that your child has to believe you and then do good.

I added nothing to what Jesus said. I shared Scripture which speaks for itself.

And, I don’t find it a bit funny when anyone tries to make it say something it doesn’t actually say. It’s a pretty serious thing to essentially put words in Jesus’ mouth, making Him say that we need to earn our own salvation.

Many would like to make Him into nothing more than a guru or some sort of enlightened teacher who came to teach us how to live right so that we can save ourselves. They reject the cross or at the very least diminish it and the power of God to save, to the uttermost, all who believe.

They find the cross offensive because they seek to boast in themselves and their own good works and righteous obedience. They add their own works to Christ’s finished work on the cross because they do not believe He did enough to save them.

And the scariest thing is, they don’t seem to even understand they’re doing it, because, like the Jews Paul wrote of, they have a “zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.” They, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, go about to establish their own.

 

[amariselle]

Listen, you added that we must keep His commandments perfectly. You added perfectly and you know it.

Nope, I didn’t. Scripture is clear. The standard for salvation is 100% perfection. You know this. If it wasn’t, Christ need not have gone to the cross, because Israel (and all the rest of us) could have simply saved ourselves by just “doing our best.”

 

[EmSw]

They must not be too intelligent. Where in those Scriptures can we find the word...…
"TEACHERS"??????

The words are...…."If ANY MANS Work...….".

Now the CONTEXT is found in 1 Corth. 3:10...……….
"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it."

Then another thought is doesn't a "teacher" of the Word of God have to be a Christian? How do you separate between the two to make that a true statement that is only refers to TEACHERS.

I am sorry sister but that is not acceptable to me.

Consider verse 15...……..
"IF ANY MANS WORK shall be burned, HE shall suffer loss but HE HIMSELF shall be saved, yet so as by fire".

Do YOU personally think that means it refers to "TEACHERS"???

What is being built? What was Paul's work?

1 Corinthians 3
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians
Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

A building is being built, who were the people to whom Paul was writing. These same people were Paul's work.

If any man's work, that is, those who are built upon the foundation of Jesus, are burned, the man who built will suffer loss, but himself will be saved.

Paul said the Corinthians were his work. If any of these Corinthians are burned (faith tested by fire) and fail, Paul will suffer lose, but will be saved. Paul's, nor anyone else's salvation depends upon another's actions. But if these people abides, Paul will receive a reward.

 

[EmSw]

AND...…….if we fail to keep one, we are then guilty of breaking ALL of them.

What a terrible and scary way to live ones life. That is if of course if they are really keeping all the commandments to begin with or just saying that they are.

If any person says that they are keeping the commandments...….I would love to talk with their spouce for just 5 minutes and I bet we would hear a different story.

Do you cheat on your wife? Is this what Jesus said to do? Do you lie to your wife? Why do you have problems keeping His commandments? Do you steal from your wife? Do you hate your wife? What kind of believer lives this way? That is insanity. Do you have problems with any of these?

 

[EmSw]

I added nothing to what Jesus said. I shared Scripture which speaks for itself.

And, I don’t find it a bit funny when anyone tries to make it say something it doesn’t actually say. It’s a pretty serious thing to essentially put words in Jesus’ mouth, making Him say that we need to earn our own salvation.

Many would like to make Him into nothing more than a guru or some sort of enlightened teacher who came to teach us how to live right so that we can save ourselves. They reject the cross or at the very least diminish it and the power of God to save, to the uttermost, all who believe.

They find the cross offensive because they seek to boast in themselves and their own good works and righteous obedience. They add their own works to Christ’s finished work on the cross because they do not believe He did enough to save them.

And the scariest thing is, they don’t seem to even understand they’re doing it, because, like the Jews Paul wrote of, they have a “zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.” They, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, go about to establish their own.

I haven't added one word to these words of Jesus.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

It's just some people don't believe what He said.