(Jews) Why don't Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah?

[Neostarwcc]

Jews, I'm curious as to why Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Could you list all of your reasons for why you deny that Jesus is the Messiah? Who do you think the Messiah will be if it isn't Jesus?

 

[Drick]

It's explained pretty well here.

 

[Neostarwcc]

It's explained pretty well here.

That explains a lot! Thanks!

 

[LoAmmi]

Jews, I'm curious as to why Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Could you list all of your reasons for why you deny that Jesus is the Messiah? Who do you think the Messiah will be if it isn't Jesus?

It's explained pretty well here.

That article is pretty good in covering it. I'm not an expert, but I would be glad to answer any questions that you have after reading that.

The easiest way to answer the question is to say that Jesus did not fulfill the major prophecies that Jews associate with the Messiah. These prophecies tend to be said to be accomplished during the Second Coming in Christianity.

 

[Drick]

If you are using the term 'Second Coming', then you must think that there was a 'First Coming'. What happened during the'First Coming'?

You're misunderstanding him. He was referring only to the Christian version of the Messiah in his last sentence. He doesn't actually believe that the first coming has happened yet, either.

 

[LoAmmi]

So he believes that the Messiah will come in the time frame of the Christians Second Coming?

No, we believe that the Messiah will come once and accomplish everything the Tanakh states the Messiah will accomplish.

 

[LoAmmi]

Then what was post 4 talking about the Second Coming of Christianity?

Because when Jews and Christians talk about these things, Jews point out the prophecies that aren't fulfilled and Christians respond that those prophecies will be fulfilled in the Second Coming.

 

[Neostarwcc]

So you believe that the Messiah will accomplish ALL of the prophecies? Because, Jesus fulfilled many of the prophecies of the coming Messiah. The rest of the prophecies will be fulfilled at his second coming.

For example I'll post a few of the main ones he fulfilled

Isaiah 7:14

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

(Jesus was born from the Virgin Mary)

Micah 5:2

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

(Jesus was born in Bethlehem)

Isaiah 53:5

"But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed."

(Jesus was whipped, beaten and finally pierced by a wooden spear before and after his Crucifixion)

Psalm 69:21

They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

(Jesus was given vinegar to drink during his crucifixion)

Isaiah 53:3


He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.


(Many of the Jews and people in Jesus's time hated and rejected Jesus. And there is still hatred and rejection for Jesus today)

Jeremiah 31:15


This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

(King Herod when he attempted to kill Jesus massacred all of the children)


These are just some of the Messianic prophecies Jesus fulfilled for a semi complete list you can go here:

44 Prophecies of the Messiah Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

But, I say just because Jesus didn't fulfill ALL of the Prophecies concerning the Messiah at once doesn't mean that he cannot be the Messiah. The rest of the Prophecies will be fulfilled at his second coming like you said. But, the Jews are waiting for a Messiah that's a conqueror like David right? Because Jesus never freed the Jewish people from the Romans. They're waiting for a Messiah that will fulfill all of the prophecies all at once? I'm just making sure I understand the Jewish position correctly.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

In Judaism, the Messiah is an all or nothing deal. You either fulfill everything and are obviously without a doubt the Messiah or you do not fulfill everything and are not the Messiah. There is not installment plan for the Messiah in Judaism.

 

[Neostarwcc]

In Judaism, the Messiah is an all or nothing deal. You either fulfill everything and are obviously without a doubt the Messiah or you do not fulfill everything and are not the Messiah. There is not installment plan for the Messiah in Judaism.

I see. I think I understand now, thank you.

 

[Grace2022]

It's explained pretty well here.[/QUOTE

Well, I feel awful after reading that. Makes my head dizzy.

 

[LoAmmi]

staff edit.

Ok, let's hit on that. Let's say it is virgin. I'm ok with that. Isaiah is talking about a virgin. Great.

If we read Isaiah 7, we see that the context of the prophecy is that King Ahaz is worried about being attacked and destroyed. Isaiah tells him that it won't happen.

10 Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11 “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign: The virgin[d] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[e] will call him Immanuel.[f] 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

So, what are the signs for King Ahaz? That when the child knows right from wrong, he will be eating curds and honey. Curds and honey are a standard symbol for prosperity at that time. Kind of like how it was promised the land would flow with milk and honey. That's prosperity. What's more, before the child knows right from wrong, the nations that King Ahaz fears will be laid waste.

How does Jesus's birth hundreds of years in the future help King Ahaz here? How is it a sign for King Ahaz that his nation will not be attacked and destroyed? True, both nations Ahaz was worried about would indeed be gone by the time of Jesus's birth, but that's not much of a prophecy or comfort for Ahaz. Isaiah would be saying "Don't worry King Ahaz, in eight hundred years everything will be cool!" That seems like it's little to no help for King Ahaz. I don't recall there ever being mention of Judah being prosperous during Jesus's time to the point that the people were eating curds and honey, but I'm not going to get too deep into that.

 

[LoAmmi]

So you believe that the Messiah will accomplish ALL of the prophecies? Because, Jesus fulfilled many of the prophecies of the coming Messiah. The rest of the prophecies will be fulfilled at his second coming.

For example I'll post a few of the main ones he fulfilled

Isaiah 7:14

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

(Jesus was born from the Virgin Mary)

Micah 5:2

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

(Jesus was born in Bethlehem)

Isaiah 53:5

"But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed."

(Jesus was whipped, beaten and finally pierced by a wooden spear before and after his Crucifixion)

Psalm 69:21

They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

(Jesus was given vinegar to drink during his crucifixion)

Isaiah 53:3


He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.


(Many of the Jews and people in Jesus's time hated and rejected Jesus. And there is still hatred and rejection for Jesus today)

Jeremiah 31:15


This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

(King Herod when he attempted to kill Jesus massacred all of the children)


These are just some of the Messianic prophecies Jesus fulfilled for a semi complete list you can go here:

44 Prophecies of the Messiah Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

But, I say just because Jesus didn't fulfill ALL of the Prophecies concerning the Messiah at once doesn't mean that he cannot be the Messiah. The rest of the Prophecies will be fulfilled at his second coming like you said. But, the Jews are waiting for a Messiah that's a conqueror like David right? Because Jesus never freed the Jewish people from the Romans. They're waiting for a Messiah that will fulfill all of the prophecies all at once? I'm just making sure I understand the Jewish position correctly.

I can go over these, but not all at once. Let's just take the last one, Jeremiah 31:15.

15 This is what the Lord says:

“A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”
16 This is what the Lord says:

“Restrain your voice from weeping
and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,”
declares the Lord.
“They will return from the land of the enemy.
17 So there is hope for your descendants,”
declares the Lord.
“Your children will return to their own land.

How does verse 16 and 17 go along with your idea that it is a prophecy about Jesus?

What's going on here anyway? Let's look back and see who this is talking about.

10 “Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
11 For the Lord will deliver Jacob
and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.

So, it's talking about Israel being gathered up from being scattered. Israel will return from the land of the enemy and be delivered to "their own land".

How is this about Jesus? I'm confused.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread had a clean up. As a reminder, the Debate Non-Christian Religions Statement of Purpose includes:
​

The Debate Non-Christian Religions forum is for our Christian members (as defined by the site Statement of Faith) to debate (challenge) the beliefs of all non-Christian religions, and for members of non-Christian religions to defend their religious beliefs. Only orthodox (Trinitarian) Christians and the members of the specific religion being challenged may participate in the thread.

For this thread, only Jews and orthodox Christians may participate.​

 

[ViaCrucis]

At the end of the day from the perspective of Judaism Jesus fails to meet the criteria of the Messiah. From the perspective of Jews two thousand years ago, that was also the case; after all a crucified, dead messiah is a false messiah.

The Christian position arises chiefly by being Jesus-centric; for early Christians the very idea of Messiah is shaped by Jesus, first and foremost on the basis of His resurrection--that if Jesus did rise from the dead then He is vindicated for what He claims to be, and thus what "Messiah" means must be now comprehended in light of the coming and person of Jesus.

So for a Christian, in light of two millennia of teaching, tradition, and the faith conviction that He did and said all that is said of Him in our tradition, and that He rose from the dead, was taken into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God until the Last Day the question of "Is Jesus the Messiah?" seems very obvious, it is very obvious on account of the particular faith claims, assumptions, and propositions which we hold as true.

But for a Jew, the inverse is the case: the entire Christian theological system, and propositions about Jesus are in fact not true; there have been many self-proclaimed messiahs--including Jesus--and they have all one thing in common: they were false messiahs who are dead. Jesus can no more be the Messiah then Judas the Galilean, Simon Bar-Kochba, or Jacob Joseph Frank.

Thus there will always be very significant and fundamental differences to speak of here. Judaism and Christianity have irreconcilable differences pertaining to messiology and messianism; I don't say that because I think we should throw up our hands and never talk about it, but rather because I think acknowledging this is important in order to have a truly fruitful inter-religious conversation that can be civil, respectful, and seeking to understand one another. For a Christian to assume, "Of course Jesus is the Messiah, what's wrong with all these Jews!?" is unhelpful, and unfortunately that's been the chief operating principle for how Christians act toward Jews historically. And in many cases become itself a fertile soil for antisemitism, violence, cruelty, and brutality toward our Jewish neighbors.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoAmmi]

At the end of the day from the perspective of Judaism Jesus fails to meet the criteria of the Messiah. From the perspective of Jews two thousand years ago, that was also the case; after all a crucified, dead messiah is a false messiah.

The Christian position arises chiefly by being Jesus-centric; for early Christians the very idea of Messiah is shaped by Jesus, first and foremost on the basis of His resurrection--that if Jesus did rise from the dead then He is vindicated for what He claims to be, and thus what "Messiah" means must be now comprehended in light of the coming and person of Jesus.

So for a Christian, in light of two millennia of teaching, tradition, and the faith conviction that He did and said all that is said of Him in our tradition, and that He rose from the dead, was taken into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God until the Last Day the question of "Is Jesus the Messiah?" seems very obvious, it is very obvious on account of the particular faith claims, assumptions, and propositions which we hold as true.

But for a Jew, the inverse is the case: the entire Christian theological system, and propositions about Jesus are in fact not true; there have been many self-proclaimed messiahs--including Jesus--and they have all one thing in common: they were false messiahs who are dead. Jesus can no more be the Messiah then Judas the Galilean, Simon Bar-Kochba, or Jacob Joseph Frank.

Thus there will always be very significant and fundamental differences to speak of here. Judaism and Christianity have irreconcilable differences pertaining to messiology and messianism; I don't say that because I think we should throw up our hands and never talk about it, but rather because I think acknowledging this is important in order to have a truly fruitful inter-religious conversation that can be civil, respectful, and seeking to understand one another. For a Christian to assume, "Of course Jesus is the Messiah, what's wrong with all these Jews!?" is unhelpful, and unfortunately that's been the chief operating principle for how Christians act toward Jews historically. And in many cases become itself a fertile soil for antisemitism, violence, cruelty, and brutality toward our Jewish neighbors.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you. I agree with what you said here.

 

[Christie insb]

....
Thus there will always be very significant and fundamental differences to speak of here. Judaism and Christianity have irreconcilable differences pertaining to messiology and messianism; I don't say that because I think we should throw up our hands and never talk about it, but rather because I think acknowledging this is important in order to have a truly fruitful inter-religious conversation that can be civil, respectful, and seeking to understand one another. For a Christian to assume, "Of course Jesus is the Messiah, what's wrong with all these Jews!?" is unhelpful, and unfortunately that's been the chief operating principle for how Christians act toward Jews historically. And in many cases become itself a fertile soil for antisemitism, violence, cruelty, and brutality toward our Jewish neighbors.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes. My in-laws do not believe Scripture at all really, as they are Reform Jews and believe it is bad to be too observant. But the anti-semitism in living memory and throughout Christian history is huge huge huge. "The Jews killed Jesus," so the saying goes. Yes but the Jews were his disciples, his mother, his cousin John, his teachers. Almost everybody was Jewish. And our revered father in faith, Luther, spewed some awful venom.

 

[Proud Pagan]

I'm curious as to why Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah

I gave this answer to this guy in other thread.
The troubling is the Gospel of Mark makes no mention of any virgin birth. Paul's Epistles and Romans were written a decade or more before Mark also makes no mention of this. When examined in the context of the surrounding chapters of this book, this verse looks more like a discussion of an upcoming event in the author's life.

The verse thought to be a prophecy appears at Isaiah 7:14 - "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el."

Before you accuse me of fudging the verse by replacing virgin with "young woman" I assure you that I pulled this out of the most accurate translation of the Bible that there is, the Revised Standard Version. That this is the correct word used here can be seen from comparing how the word translated as "young woman" is translated in other places.

The Hebrew word is ALMAH (al-mah) and it is used 7 times in the Bible. Strictly speaking, it means young woman but depending on the Bible that you are using, it is translated as virgin, maiden and damsel, as well. There is another Hebrew word which is specifically translated as virgin. It is BETHULAH (be-too-lah) and it appears in the Bible 50 times. 38 times it is translated as virgin while the other 12 are spread out over the words maid and maiden. As you can see, there is some question if this word is properly translated.

Beyond the issue of translation is the problem of how the alleged prophecy sits within the verses and chapters around it. Here is some background behind the verse at Isaiah 7:14:

In the first verse of the chapter, we are given the historical context. It is the time of King Ahaz of Judah. It is not a good time for the kingdom as the two nations of Israel and Assyria are marching towards Judah to do battle. At verse three, we are told that the Lord says to Isaiah that he should go to meet King Ahaz and tell him to go and meet the other two kings. Isaiah is told to tell Ahaz that there is nothing to fear from the two kings as they will be defeated and destroyed.

In verse 11, the Lord tells Ahaz to ask him for a sign that these things would come to pass. Ahaz refuses, stating that he will not put the Lord to the test. In response to this, the Lord says that the sign would be given anyway, and that a young woman would bear a child and it would be named Immanuel.

If this were the end of the prophecy and a new subject was started, we might suppose that this is a prophecy of the coming of Jesus, even though Jesus' name is not used. Immanuel does mean "god is with us" but that does not constitute that this would be Jesus. There is more to the prophecy, however, as we see in the two verses directly following 7:14:

15 He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.
16 For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted.

We can see from these two subsequent verses that the whole purpose of the prophecy is that a child would be born in Ahaz's time that would be a sign that the two attacking countries would be deserted. Would a birth some 700 years later (when Jesus was born) have been any kind of sign to King Ahaz? No, of course not. He was long dead before Jesus was born.

Finally, we see that in the very next chapter of Isaiah there is a birth. We know that this is the prophesied child to be born simply based on the following two verses from Isaiah 8:

3 And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Call his name Ma'her-shal'al-hash-baz
4 for before the child knows how to cry 'My father' or 'My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Sama'ria will be carried away before the king of Assyria."

While we do not know the significance of the name Ma'her-shal'al-hash-baz, we do know that it can not be linked up with Jesus' name or Immanuel. We do see, however, know that this is the child prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 as verse 4 here makes the same claim as the verses following 7:14.

Conclusion

We see above that there are numerous problems with this being a prophecy of Jesus. The first and foremost is the translation problem. We see that Isaiah was familiar with the term BETHULAH and used it when he wanted to convey a woman's virginity. That he did not employ it at 7:14 seems to indicate that this is not what he meant for this prophecy.

In addition to this is the problem that the prophecy was framed in such a way that for it to be true, it would need to occur in the time of King Ahaz. Lastly, we see that the child is indeed born during Ahaz's time as chapter 8 shows us.

Far from being a prophecy of a virgin birth, we find a regular pregnancy some 700 years prior to the birth of Jesus.

 

[Eliyahu52]

Because when Jews and Christians talk about these things, Jews point out the prophecies that aren't fulfilled and Christians respond that those prophecies will be fulfilled in the Second Coming.

Bs"d

So basically everybody agrees that the messianic prophecies have NOT been fulfilled.

Then it should be clear that the messiah hasn't come yet.

 

[LoAmmi]

Bs"d

So basically everybody agrees that the messianic prophecies have NOT been fulfilled.

Then it should be clear that the messiah hasn't come yet.

I'm willing to let them have their religious belief that Jesus will come back and do it all. It's in their religion and that's their thing. But for Jews, it definitely is that the work hasn't been completed, so we don't recognize anybody as Messiah. People ask why we reject Jesus but it's more accurate to say we reject everybody who hasn't finished the prophecies.