Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

[Biblewriter]

Ishmael did not descend from Jacob, thus he is not labeled a Jew. But he and his descendants still possessed and possess Abraham's DNA. Genetics does not concern itself with labels. It concerns itself only with DNA.

And here is the proof of your error. For, although Ishmael was a physical descendant of Abraham, his seed was only counted in Isaac. Your problem is that you are ascribing greater authority to the unreliable words of men, than to the absolutely reliable words of God.

 

[BABerean2]

Your problem is that you are ascribing greater authority to the unreliable words of men, than to the absolutely reliable words of God.

How about the words of God in Galatians 3:16, where Paul says the Abrahamic promise was made only to Christ?

How about the words of God in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, where we find the fulfillment of the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34?

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[jgr]

And here is the proof of your error. For, although Ishmael was a physical descendant of Abraham, his seed was only counted in Isaac. Your problem is that you are ascribing greater authority to the unreliable words of men, than to the absolutely reliable words of God.

The true significance of God's choice of Isaac had nothing to do with genetics. Rather, Isaac was the "child of promise", a product of the faith and obedience of Abraham and Sarah. Faith, because both Abraham and Sarah believed God's promise that Abraham would sire a son even though both of them were well beyond the point of physical capability. (Hebrews 11:11-12) Obedience, because Abraham was willing to obey God's instructions to sacrifice Isaac, in apparent violation of His own promise. Yet in further faith he obeyed to the point where God's intervention was elicited. (Hebrews 11:17-19). God's response was to honor all three of them by choosing Isaac's lineage to be that through which Messiah would come.

Hebrews 11
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

We then further see Isaac, the "child of promise", continue his parents' spiritual legacy to also become a spiritual progenitor of those of faith and obedience in and to Christ -- His Church -- His "children of promise" heirs:

Romans 9:7-8
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

Thus Isaac, in the full tradition of his parents Abraham and Sarah, continued their legacies of faith and obedience, to the benefit of us all who follow in their spiritual footsteps.

 

[Davy]

The Tanach deals mostly with Israel, which will go through the seven years.

1thessalonians4:15-18 deals with Christians who are not appointed to wrath.

That is a false assumption by Dispensationalism, because it wrongly assumes Israelite believers on Jesus are no longer Israel, which is an ignorant idea really.

The wrath Apostle Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5 is about the cup of God's wrath poured out on the earth on the LAST DAY of this world. It is the 7th Vial event. It is not Satan's wrath which the Church will be subjected to during the coming tribulation.

Paul was pulling from the OT prophets in 1 Thess.5 when speaking of the "day of the Lord". That "day of the Lord" will only begin on the LAST DAY of this present world. I know pre-trib is wrongly teaching the "day of the Lord" begins prior to the tribulation, but that idea is false.

As for the Tanach regarding Israel, the majority of the promises God gave Israel were moved to Christ's Church (see Matthew 21 about the parable of the vineyard).

 

[Davy]

You are simply ASSUMING that by “the righteous,” Irenaeus meant “the church.” I have demonstrated that Irsnaeus made a distinct and systematic change in the terms he used before and after he placed the rapture. This term, “the righteous” is not only used in scripture in regard to “the church.”

The 'overcomers' in Christ Jesus ARE... the 'righteous'. So I am assuming nothing, but am right on the mark of Irenaeus' message.

Rev 3:5
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Actually, the Old Testament never, even once, said that the great promised Messiah would come more than just once. But it contained priphecies that contained mutually exclusive details. The New Testament did the same. It never said that Jesus would return more than once. But it contained prophecies containing mutually exclusive details.

But yes it did; you just have not been shown, haven't studied it, or haven't believed.

Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

Verse 9 is about Christ's 1st advent, to die on the cross.

Verse 10 is about Christ's future 2nd advent, to fight and reign as King.

There is no intermediate advent which the pre-trib rapture doctors wrongly assume.

Isaiah 61:1-2 is another example.

 

[seventysevens]

That is a false assumption by Dispensationalism, because it wrongly assumes Israelite believers on Jesus are no longer Israel, which is an ignorant idea really.

It is not Dispensational teaching that Israelite believers on Jesus are no longer Israel, amils refuse to accept Israel entirely unless they are the church- but it is the amil crowd that strongly pushing that notion which is an ignorant idea

 

[Davy]

What the bible teaches is "in Christ" there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

Not "in God's sight".

Jews and Gentiles are designations pertinent to either being of the nation of Israel, or of the other nations.

That is simply a thing you don't understand, obviously because of your lack of Bible study. The name Israel is... the Salvation name; it means to prevail with God. That's why Paul used the label "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2 when talking about Gentile believers also inheriting the covenants and promises God gave to Israel.

The Jews like to call it 'replacement theology', but in reality God has always preserved a remnant of His chosen Israel in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul specifically spoke of it in Romans 11 about those of Israel which God preserved by the election of grace. So true Israel, God's chosen of the seed of Israel, have always been members of Christ's Church, and even were the beginnings of it. Those first Israelite believers who were given care of The Gospel did not simply give up Christ's Church to the Gentiles when the Gentiles began hearing them preach The Gospel.

When Jesus returns, He will sit upon David's earthly throne and be King over Israel, and His Apostles will each sit upon a throne over the twelve tribes of Israel. That is the Kingdom which His Church is to inherit, with Abraham, and with the believers of the seed of Israel, along with believing Gentiles. That's God's future Israel, and it will be a nation of priests which God had always sought His Israel to be.

 

[Biblewriter]

The true significance of God's choice of Isaac had nothing to do with genetics. Rather, Isaac was the "child of promise", a product of the faith and obedience of Abraham and Sarah. Faith, because both Abraham and Sarah believed God's promise that Abraham would sire a son even though both of them were well beyond the point of physical capability. (Hebrews 11:11-12) Obedience, because Abraham was willing to obey God's instructions to sacrifice Isaac, in apparent violation of His own promise. Yet in further faith he obeyed to the point where God's intervention was elicited. (Hebrews 11:17-19). God's response was to honor all three of them by choosing Isaac's lineage to be that through which Messiah would come.

Hebrews 11
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

We then further see Isaac, the "child of promise", continue his parents' spiritual legacy to also become a spiritual progenitor of those of faith and obedience in and to Christ -- His Church -- His "children of promise" heirs:

Romans 9:7-8
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

Thus Isaac, in the full tradition of his parents Abraham and Sarah, continued their legacies of faith and obedience, to the benefit of us all who follow in their spiritual footsteps.

Yes, all who share the faith of Abraham are his spiritual seed. But this cannot negate the very explicitly stated promises made to the ancient nations of Judah and Israel.

 

[Biblewriter]

Every human being on planet earth includes every mother on planet earth, and every human being on planet earth now possessing Abraham's DNA means that every mother on planet earth now possesses Abraham's DNA, and is thus a Jew along with everyone else.

Even assuming your assertion is true, which is highly doubtful, having Abraham's DNA NEVER made ANYONE a Jew. From the very beginning, the children of promise were only a fraction of those possessing Abraham's DNA.

 

[Biblewriter]

Bro. Ryrie, God rest him, also chose to ignore genetic dispersion and diffusion, and thus perpetuate the dispensational "doctrine of ignorance".

TRUE ignorance is ascribing greater authority to the fallible assertions of men to the infallible word of God.

 

[Biblewriter]

That is simply a thing you don't understand, obviously because of your lack of Bible study. The name Israel is... the Salvation name; it means to prevail with God. That's why Paul used the label "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2 when talking about Gentile believers also inheriting the covenants and promises God gave to Israel.

The Jews like to call it 'replacement theology', but in reality God has always preserved a remnant of His chosen Israel in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul specifically spoke of it in Romans 11 about those of Israel which God preserved by the election of grace. So true Israel, God's chosen of the seed of Israel, have always been members of Christ's Church, and even were the beginnings of it. Those first Israelite believers who were given care of The Gospel did not simply give up Christ's Church to the Gentiles when the Gentiles began hearing them preach The Gospel.

When Jesus returns, He will sit upon David's earthly throne and be King over Israel, and His Apostles will each sit upon a throne over the twelve tribes of Israel. That is the Kingdom which His Church is to inherit, with Abraham, and with the believers of the seed of Israel, along with believing Gentiles. That's God's future Israel, and it will be a nation of priests which God had always sought His Israel to be.

Who will they reign over? If there were not still natural people living in the earth, there would be no one for the resurrected saints to rule over.

 

[Davy]

Who will they reign over? If there were not still natural people living in the earth, there would be no one for the resurrected saints to rule over.

All nations will flow up to God's holy hill of Jerusalem during His future Kingdom under His Son. Have you not read the Book of Isaiah?

 

[Biblewriter]

All nations will flow up to God's holy hill of Jerusalem during His future Kingdom under His Son. Have you not read the Book of Isaiah?

You missed the entire point of my observation. You claim that the true Israel will be reigning with the resurrected saints. But the scriptures do not just speak of the gentile nations still in existence at this time, but also of the physical nation of Israel. They even go so far as to define the borders of the land of Israel at time, and specify how it will be divided among the twelve tribes. (Ezekiel 47-48)

 

[BABerean2]

Yes, all who share the faith of Abraham are his spiritual seed. But this cannot negate the very explicitly stated promises made to the ancient nations of Judah and Israel.

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Can anyone honestly look at the Uppercase quotations below from the passage above and claim that God has not fulfilled his New Covenant with Israel and Judah?


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

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[jgr]

Yes, all who share the faith of Abraham are his spiritual seed. But this cannot negate the very explicitly stated promises made to the ancient nations of Judah and Israel.

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[jgr]

Even assuming your assertion is true, which is highly doubtful, having Abraham's DNA NEVER made ANYONE a Jew. From the very beginning, the children of promise were only a fraction of those possessing Abraham's DNA.

I couldn't agree more.

And what were and are the characteristics that distinguish the children of promise from everyone else?

Faith and obedience.

Nothing whatever to do with DNA.

 

[keras]

Yes, all who share the faith of Abraham are his spiritual seed. But this cannot negate the very explicitly stated promises made to the ancient nations of Judah and Israel.

But it does.
Not to negate, but to transfer those promises to the people who bear fruit. To every faithful Christian believer from every tribe, race , nation and language. Revelation 5:9, Isaiah 66:18b

Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ, indeed, we have been given the heritage, as was decreed in God’s purpose. For it was His will that we who set our hopes in Jesus, should be the ones to make His glory known and praised.
We Christians have the Seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the pledge of the inheritance that will be ours when God has cleansed His possession, to the Glory of His Name. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

Romans 8:16-18 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God…..it is the Spirit of adoption, so we can call Him ‘Father’. This affirms that we are God’s children and if children, then heirs, heirs of God’s promises through Christ.
But we must share His suffering, if we are also to share His glory.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises of God through Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 So if you belong to Christ, then you are the issue of Abraham and heirs of God’s promises. [to the Patriarchs]

Colossians 1:12 We give thanks to the Father who has made us fit to share in the heritage of God’s people in the Kingdom of light.

It is quite evident that the vast multitude seen in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9, soon after the Sixth Seal event that will clear all of the holy Land, is far more that the remnant of the Jewish people. Romans 9:27

Many prophesies make it plain that in the end times there will be a people in God’s holy Land, who will be His people, those who seek the Lord and who know what is right. Isaiah 51:1 Every faithful Christian person.

 

[keras]

In 1Thessalonians4:15-18,

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The air is heaven, according to there being three heavens in the bible. It is not what you are intending in your question, but it answers your question as asked.

The third heaven is in the Father's house, which Jesus has gone to prepare a place for them who believe what he said, that he would come receive them to himself, which is the resurrection and rapture - to heaven, to be taken to the third heaven.

Sorry, Douggg; this so called proof is a total fail.
You don't put what I asked, for the very evident reason that there simply is no verse that plainly states a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.
Your Thess quote only mentions heaven as the place Jesus comes from and He is on His way to earth for His Millennium reign. We, who are alive and remain, will meet him in the atmosphere.
Please cease to promote a rapture, as it makes you to be a false teacher.

 

[Biblewriter]

I couldn't agree more.

And what were and are the characteristics that distinguish the children of promise from everyone else?

Faith and obedience.

Nothing whatever to do with DNA.

The land promise is only to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Then there are specific promises to the descendants of each of the twelve tribes of Israel. But other scriptures restrict these promises to the physical descendants to those who share Abraham's faith.