Losing faith in "faith alone"

[112358]

It would be unwise to base any proof on MARK.16:9-20. Even if so based, "is baptized" may refer to "baptized by the Holy Spirit" and not "baptized in water".

I believe I stated in an earlier post that there could be reason to allow that Mark 16 does not refer to water baptism because Jesus was speaking with the apostles, and Holy Spirit baptism was reserved for them and their delegates alone. The problem is that "He who believes" includes many more than the apostles. So I think it's safe to say that the reference is to water baptism. Paired with the fact that the apostles proceeded to baptize everyone in sight (in water), I don't think it's a stretch. That's also the reason why any assertion that Mark 16 is "suspect" is itself quite suspect. But we can throw Mark 16 out if you wish. You still have to deal with Acts.

Actually, 1Peter.3:21 was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit by the Lord Jesus Christ who truly cleans/sanctifies His people spiritually, which could not be accomplished by the antitype or symbolic water baptism. ...

Good thing Peter told us exactly what he meant with regard to the antitype reference. It was the water that saved Noah. The antitype is not water vs. Spirit baptism. It is the fact that in Noah's case the water saved his physical life (and wiped the physical life of sinners off the face of the planet), and that in our case the water saves our spiritual life (and wipes the spiritual life of sin off the face of the planet) Romans 6. Thus, "the answer of a good conscience toward God". The reference is specifically to spiritual life, not spiritual baptism. Be reminded that all this is coming from the same apostle that commanded water baptism at Pentecost for the remission of sins, would not deny water to Cornelius (AFTER he believed), and again proceeded to baptize everyone in sight after the Lord gave him the great commission.

But toss this one out as well if you wish. There sits the entire book of Acts still. And the fact that the apostle Paul himself apparently needed to be baptized to wash away his sins. AFTER he obviously believed, unless his blindness had not convinced him.

So I think it unwise to conclude anything other than the essential nature of baptism in water with respect to salvation. It was good enough for Jesus, the apostles, and everyone who was becoming a Christian in the early days of the church. So it's good enough for me.

 

[redleghunter]

No. The Holy Spirit fell on Peter and the apostles, then Peter preached, then the people were baptized in water, then they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. You have the sequence out of order.

In Acts 10 the assembled heard the Gospel and received the Holy Spirit and were then baptized in water.

No. One is not born of the Spirit until they are baptized. Acts 10 was about Holy Spirit baptism first, as a proof to Peter that salvation had come not just to the Jews but to the Gentiles as well. Then Cornelius and crew had to be immersed in water because they were not apostles. If it were not necessary they would have just gone on their way rejoicing like the Eunuch did. But he rejoiced after he was IMMERSED.

Unfortunately this is incorrect as Cornelius and those with him received the Holy Spirit as the Jews did who were in attendance and were then baptized in water.

The Eunuch had Phillip read Isaiah 53 and Phillip said its is Jesus of Nazareth the text speaks of. Eunuch believed and then was baptized.

Even in Acts 2, it is hear, believe be baptized.

This is not difficult.

 

[redleghunter]

112358 I actually sympathize with you about the baptism thing but this is one area that I struggle with (Acts 10:47). I read on another site that you don't have to be saved to be baptized with the Holy Spirit baptism, is that true? I feel weird for even asking that sort of thing lol

The evidence from Acts shows believer baptism. Meaning people heard the Gospel, believed and were baptized.

We should all follow that basic Christian example. Baptism is the seal of the New Covenant.

 

[redleghunter]

Do I need to quote all the places where baptism is mentioned in association with salvation? Because it will take a while.

You can start with Simon Mangus getting water baptized. Let me know if he was saved.

 

[Afra]

I think it's a matter of 13 Pauline epistles point out we are justified and saved by God's Grace and not our own works, and one verse in James erroneously interpreted as if canceling out other Scriptures.

This is hyperbole. Not of all the 13 letters even address the topic of faith and works. Have you read them?

And there is plenty more than James that refutes Sola Fide. Paul’s own letters refute it.

 

[redleghunter]

No only do you not have to be baptized with Holy Spirit baptism, you CAN'T be baptized with the Holy Spirit. It is not possible. You have to understand what it was and what it was for. Holy Spirit baptism only occurred in association with the establishment of the New Testament church. It was given only to the apostles and their delegates as proof that the church/salvation had arrived with power. Power like speaking in tongues, healing people, raising people from the dead, etc. Cornelius received it as proof to Peter that the church/salvation had come to the Gentiles as well as the Jews.

We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water, but that is NOT Holy Spirit baptism.

I'm truly sorry to hear this. I hope you believe each born again believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion. As all the disciples (not just the apostles the 11) present with Jesus did after His resurrection. See John 20.

Now the clothing of the power from on high was for critical NT events. Acts 2 they were given tongues. Acts 4 they were given boldness to preach the Word of God.

There's nothing which shows in Scriptures these gifts of the Holy Spirit and more as mentioned by Paul in his epistles have ceased. We just don't see it much in the West. Missionaries are seeing it in many places where the Gospel has not been preached or has not for a very long time.

I have to call you on that everyone receives the Holy Spirit at baptism. It can but what we know is “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[redleghunter]

This is hyperbole. Not of all the 13 letters even address the topic of faith and works. Have you read them?

And there is plenty more than James that refutes Sola Fide. Paul’s own letters refute it.

Not hyperbole at all.

 

[zoidar]

No, but there is clear Biblical evidence of it being practiced. There is, by the way, also no ”clear evidence” of a baptism by total immersion.

As I understand it the first Christians baptised in three different ways.

1. Immersion three times, in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
2. Pouring on water three times, in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
3. Sprinkling on water three times, in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (example when someone was bedridden)

All these ways were valid.

 

[Afra]

Not hyperbole at all.

OK. What text in Philemon points out that we are justified and saved by God’s grace and not by works?

 

[amariselle]

How do you know?

1 Corinthians 5, 1 Corinthians 6 & 1 Corinthians 11:18-22 as just some examples.

To do what Jesus says. Actually I think faith involves work or it's not biblical faith.

Awhile back I posted from the concordance regarding the Greek word for "believe", it has nothing to do with "work", "obedience, or human effort.

If you believe you can get saved through works you are of course mistaken. But once saved through the new birth you need to live in obedience and that is work.

That statement in contradictory. Telling someone that they are not saved by works but that they then stay saved by works is still telling them they are saved by works.

I would disagree.

I realize that.

I think the relationship is the same thing as salvation. If you don't live in obedience you are in danger of being cut off.

Why was Israel "cut off"? Why were the Gentiles "grafted in"? Through faith? Or through works?

We have a very different view of what sin is. Before I was saved I lived in sin, but no more.

Sin is "transgression of the Law". (1 John 3:4)

Do you really believe worry or doubt is a sin?

Whatever is not of faith is sin. (Romans 14:22-23)

I don't lie, getting unjustly angry doesn't have to be a sin, depends on what you do with it.

Lying and getting unjustly angry are not the only sins. I'm sure you agree that in the "flesh", no one is free from sin.

What church do you belong to?

At present my husband and I attend a CCCU church, but we don't agree with everything they teach. We are planning to move back to Canada, so we will be looking for another church at that time.

 

[112358]

You can start with Simon Mangus getting water baptized. Let me know if he was saved.

Yes.

 

[112358]

In Acts 10 the assembled heard the Gospel and received the Holy Spirit and were then baptized in water.


Unfortunately this is incorrect as Cornelius and those with him received the Holy Spirit as the Jews did who were in attendance and were then baptized in water.

The Eunuch had Phillip read Isaiah 53 and Phillip said its is Jesus of Nazareth the text speaks of. Eunuch believed and then was baptized.

Even in Acts 2, it is hear, believe be baptized.

This is not difficult.

I'm starting to wonder if we are agreeing or disagreeing? 100% with you on hear, believe, be baptized.

I think we're crossed up on Holy Spirit baptism, what and who it was for.

 

[amariselle]

For all those who insist that one stays saved through "good works" and "obedience" because faith is synonymous with our own efforts/works, consider this:

Faith (noun) πίστις [pistis]

The KJV translates Strong's G4102 in the following manner: faith (239x), assurance (1x), believe (with G1537) (1x), belief (1x), them that believe (1x), fidelity (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage
1. Conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

2. Relating to God: the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ

3. Relating to Christ: a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God

4. The religious beliefs of Christians

5. Belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

6. Fidelity, faithfulness - the character of one who can be relied on

Strong’s Definitions
πίστις pístis, pis'-tis; from G3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:—assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Source

 

[amariselle]

I posted this earlier, but here is a look at the Greek for "believe."

Believe: πιστεύω (pisteuō) - verb

Strong’s Definitions
πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 248x
The KJV translates Strong's G4100 in the following manner: believe (239x), commit unto (4x), commit to (one's) trust (1x), be committed unto (1x), be put in trust with (1x), be commit to one's trust (1x), believer (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage
to think to be true, to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in; of the thing believed;to credit, have confidence; in a moral or religious reference; used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith; mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith; to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity; to be intrusted with a thing

Source

 

[redleghunter]

Regarding Baptism:
Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Notice belief is the necessary piece. Only people who truly believe get into the water to be baptized. Because those who don't believe will be condemned.

If splashing water saves, then we need to hit the prisons with fire trucks and hose down the inmates.

They heard, they believed and they were baptized. A very simple package deal there. No substitutions no a la carte.

 

[112358]

I'm truly sorry to hear this. I hope you believe each born again believer receives the Holy Spirit upon conversion. As all the disciples (not just the apostles the 11) present with Jesus did after His resurrection. See John 20.

Now the clothing of the power from on high was for critical NT events. Acts 2 they were given tongues. Acts 4 they were given boldness to preach the Word of God.

There's nothing which shows in Scriptures these gifts of the Holy Spirit and more as mentioned by Paul in his epistles have ceased. We just don't see it much in the West. Missionaries are seeing it in many places where the Gospel has not been preached or has not for a very long time.

I have to call you on that everyone receives the Holy Spirit at baptism. It can but what we know is “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Yeah I can't go here with you. We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit when we are baptized. The seal, the mark, the comforter, the indwelling. But that is not Holy Spirit baptism. We are empowered with absolutely nothing miraculous. They (Those who received Holy Spirit baptism) also healed people in plain sight for all to see. When they spoke in tongues each person heard the voice in his own native language. They were immune from poison and venom and raised people from the dead. So which of those did you receive when you were baptized with the Holy Spirit?

It cracks me up when people say the sign gifts are happening everywhere but here. But its not funny because this is the stuff the secular world takes one look at before they summarily dismiss Christianity as a mythical fairy tale.

 

[112358]

As I understand it the first Christians baptised in three different ways.

1. Immersion three times, in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
2. Pouring on water three times, in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
3. Sprinkling on water three times, in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (example when someone was bedridden)

All these ways were valid.

Scriptural support please.

 

[zoidar]

Awhile back I posted from the concordance regarding the Greek word for "believe", it has nothing to do with "work", "obedience, or human effort.

I know nothing of the concorance, so I have no idea why it would be correct. There are a few greek words for believe. Pístis for an example can mean faithfulness. I'm sorry to not be an expert on old greek, but you have to be careful as well to listen to "experts" who use wrong theology to show what a word means.

Pístis - faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

The question is, does it lean towards to believe something or more to being faithful? All I know is what I've read and that is that the greek words we often translate to "faith" are more alive in old greek. That it's more about living in faith, being faithful, than just believe. Prove it I can't, because I haven't done any deep research yet on the subject.

That statement in contradictory. Telling someone that they are not saved by works but that they then stay saved by works is still telling them they are saved by works.

Explain why it's contradictory.

I was saved 21th of June 2010. I prayed to God that I would give him my whole life if he forgave me. And He did, and I was saved. Did I have any good works before this, no not really. After salvation then I started living in obedience and in good works.

Why was Israel "cut off"? Why were the Gentiles "grafted in"? Through faith? Or through works?

I think you have to separate two things: Works according to the Mosaic Law, and works as obeying the commands of Jesus.

Lying and getting unjustly angry are not the only sins. I'm sure you agree that in the "flesh", no one is free from sin.

I agree, but we are not to live in the flesh but in the Spirit.

At present my husband and I attend a CCCU church, but we don't agree with everything they teach. We are planning to move back to Canada, so we will be looking for another church at that time.

Ok, OCCU, isn't that a lot of diffenent churches?

 

[zoidar]

I posted this earlier, but here is a look at the Greek for "believe."

Believe: πιστεύω (pisteuō) - verb

Strong’s Definitions
πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 248x
The KJV translates Strong's G4100 in the following manner: believe (239x), commit unto (4x), commit to (one's) trust (1x), be committed unto (1x), be put in trust with (1x), be commit to one's trust (1x), believer (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage
to think to be true, to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in; of the thing believed;to credit, have confidence; in a moral or religious reference; used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith; mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith; to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity; to be intrusted with a thing

Source

To believe in someone, what does that mean? Does it mean that we believe a fact? No, it means we believe in that person, in what he says. And if we believe in what he says, then we do what he says. If my dad tells me the iron is hot, you will burn yourself if you touch it. If I believe him I don't touch it, I think it's the same with the word faith, it comes with action.

 

[amariselle]

I know nothing of the concorance, so I have no idea why it would be correct. There are a few greek words for believe. Pístis for an example can mean faithfulness. I'm sorry to not be an expert on old greek, but you have to be careful as well to listen to "experts" who use wrong theology to show what a word means.

Pístis - faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

The question is, does it lean towards to believe something or more to being faithful? All I know is what I've read and that is that the greek words we often translate to "faith" are more alive in old greek. That it's more about living in faith, being faithful, than just believe. Prove it I can't, because I haven't done any deep research yet on the subject.

I am not expert on Greek either, but I happen to believe that one does not need to be, as I trust completely that God has preserved His word for us and allowed us to read it in English.

Explain why it's contradictory.

I already did. One cannot say (rightly) that people are not saved by works, then turn around and say people don't stay saved without works, and somehow deny that this is "works-based" salvation. To claim that works do not get you saved but that they do keep you saved, is to claim that works are indeed necessary for salvation. In which case, Scripture would be incorrect in telling us plainly that salvation is not of works.

I was saved 21th of June 2010. I prayed to God that I would give him my whole life if he forgave me. And He did, and I was saved. Did I have any good works before this, no not really. After salvation then I started living in obedience and in good works.

I'm glad, but those works do not keep you saved, they are simply your "reasonable service" as a forgiven disciple.

I think you have to separate two things: Works according to the Mosaic Law, and works as obeying the commands of Jesus.

You can try to separate them all you like, but either way works do not save us. We are saved by the obedience of One.

I agree, but we are not to live in the flesh but in the Spirit.

I would argue that someone who is looking, even partially, to their "flesh" to be saved, is not living fully in the Spirit. The "inner man" is without sin, the flesh is not, it is carnal "sold under sin."

Ok, OCCU, isn't that a lot of diffenent churches?

Churches of Christ in Christian Union

*As I said, I do not agree with everything they teach.