Losing faith in "faith alone"

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Albion

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Convince a Baptist or a non-denominational Christian that there is a basis for baptizing infants in the Bible

I dont need to convince them. They have their beliefs and the majority of Christians have another. But here we have been talking mainly about Catholic practice and the reason for it, so whatever the Baptists choose to do and believe is not really part of the question.

and we can talk about the basis for your practice today being found in Scripture. The fact of the matter is that there is not one clear example of baptizing infants in the Bible, nor is there any clear instruction to do so.
And there is no clear example of a baptism by immersion, yet you seem persuaded by the Baptist argument about the administration of this ordinance, right?

Does the Bible teach that infants should be baptized?
Yes, I do. The weight of the evidence is on that side.
 
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112358

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And there is no clear example of a baptism by immersion, yet you seem persuaded by the Baptist argument about the administration of this ordinance, right?
This is like saying there is no clear example of breathing by inhaling and exhaling air. You do realize the word "baptize" literally means "immerse", yes?
 
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amariselle

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Some people believe Jesus is their Lord and master, even they aren't saved. I'm sad to say that it's the reality of things. You have to Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! (2 Cor 13:5)


The Corinthian church was absolutely full of "carnal" Christians and "babes in Christ". They were chastised, but they were still saved.

I'm also of the belief that all you need is faith as a mustard seed. But you have to be obedient with the faith you have been given.

And what is it to be "obedient with the faith you have been given"? To add works to faith? Faith and works are not the same thing.

I think obedience keeps us. The power of obedience is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Obedience is indeed a result of the indwelling of Holy Spirit, however, no one has the Holy Spirit indwelling them unless they have truly believed in the Gospel, that Christ alone saves and keeps us saved. Thereafter, we grow in His grace, through the "milk" of the word.

Indefinitely number of times are you welcome back. If we believe that we can't lose salvation we have to close our eyes all those passages that say we can. I'm not happy with doing that, so obviously we are sealed through the Holy Spirit as long as the Holy Spirit is in our heart.

There are actually no Scriptures, when rightly divided and properly understood, in context, that teach God will cast away His adopted children, who are saved, have passed from death to life, are born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, into hell. Scripture after Scripture tells us the exact opposite.

The difference between us as I understand it is that you believe that a born again believer lives in obedience automatically, while I believe obedience takes effort and choice. I don't agree with you since I see it all the time, believers, even born again believers who don't live in obedience. I was one of them.

Actually, I don't think that a born again believer automatically lives in obedience. Not in the "flesh" in any case. The "inner man" is without sin, but the "flesh" is never entirely without sin, and our flesh will either die, or be instantly transformed at Christ's return. (Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom). Our discipleship and growing in His grace is a lifelong process and is our "reasonable service", but our discipleship is not the same thing as salvation. Salvation is entirely a work of God, not of ourselves.

Or do you believe that a person who lives in sin, lies, cheats, steals etc. will be saved if at the same time trusts in Jesus?

We all "live in sin". We all sin each and every single day in the "flesh". The "flesh" wars against the Spirit. Or do you believe you have stopped sinning in your flesh? You don't lie, you don't worry or doubt, you don't get unjustly angry, you have no sin of omission?

Too many people simply do not realize how deep our sin goes, and that we are in fact all guilty. We sin in thought, word and deed. Every day.
 
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Albion

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You do realize the word "baptize" literally means "immerse", yes?
It also means to wash or to dip or several other things that make the word descriptive of most of the modes of baptizing that Baptistic people usually condemn as unbiblical.
 
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112358

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It also means to wash or to dip or several other things that make the word descriptive of most of the modes of baptizing that Baptistic people usually condemn as unbiblical.
Yes, where wash, dip, bathe, submerge (as of vessels sunk), overwhelm etc. are used synonymous with immerse, they are appropriate. Where they are not used synonymous with immerse, they are inappropriate. There is one mode of immersion. It is immersion.

But no use taking that argument further. Neither of us will convince the other.
 
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Albion

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Yes, where wash, dip, bathe, submerge (as of vessels sunk), overwhelm etc. are used synonymous with immerse, they are appropriate.
They are appropriate so long as the word is not taken to mean what the word DOES mean but only if the word is used to mean the interpretation that you prefer. C'mon.
 
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Afra

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I dont need to convince them. They have their beliefs and the majority of Christians have another. But here we have been talking mainly about Catholic practice and the reason for it, so whatever the Baptists choose to do and believe is not really part of the question.


And there is no clear example of a baptism by immersion, yet you seem persuaded by the Baptist argument about the administration of this ordinance, right?


Yes, I do. The weight of the evidence is on that side.
The majority of Christians are Catholic so if that is the basis for your decision making you can make like the prodigal son and return at any time.

You can talk about the “weight of the evidence” all you like but everyone here knows that there is no clear teaching or example of infant baptism in the Bible. That comes from the tradition of the Church. You just refuse to admit it.

What do you think @redleghunter? Does the Bible teach that infants should be baptized?
 
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zoidar

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The Corinthian church was absolutely full of "carnal" Christians and "babes in Christ". They were chastised, but they were still saved.

How do you know?

And what is it to be "obedient with the faith you have been given"? To add works to faith? Faith and works are not the same thing.

To do what Jesus says. Actually I think faith involves work or it's not biblical faith.

Obedience is indeed a result of the indwelling of Holy Spirit, however, no one has the Holy Spirit indwelling them unless they have truly believed in the Gospel, that Christ alone saves and keeps us saved. Thereafter, we grow in His grace, through the "milk" of the word.

If you believe you can get saved through works you are of course mistaken. But once saved through the new birth you need to live in obedience and that is work.

There are actually no Scriptures, when rightly divided and properly understood, in context, that teach God will cast away His adopted children, who are saved, have passed from death to life, are born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, into hell. Scripture after Scripture tells us the exact opposite.

I would disagree.

Actually, I don't think that a born again believer automatically lives in obedience. Not in the "flesh" in any case. The "inner man" is without sin, but the "flesh" is never entirely without sin, and our flesh will either die, or be instantly transformed at Christ's return. (Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom). Our discipleship and growing in His grace is a lifelong process and is our "reasonable service", but our discipleship is not the same thing as salvation. Salvation is entirely a work of God, not of ourselves.

I think the relationship is the same thing as salvation. If you don't live in obedience you are in danger of being cut off.

We all "live in sin". We all sin each and every single day in the "flesh". The "flesh" wars against the Spirit. Or do you believe you have stopped sinning in your flesh? You don't lie, you don't worry or doubt, you don't get unjustly angry, you have no sin of omission?

Too many people simply do not realize how deep our sin goes, and that we are in fact all guilty. We sin in thought, word and deed. Every day.

We have a very different view of what sin is. Before I was saved I lived in sin, but no more.

Do you really believe worry or doubt is a sin? I don't lie, getting unjustly angry doesn't have to be a sin, depends on what you do with it.

What church do you belong to?
 
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Albion

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The majority of Christians are Catholic so if that is the basis for your decision making you can make like the prodigal son and return at any time.
That is not the basis for anything. I was just saying that you have moved onto a new topic of your choosing. We had been speaking of the Catholic understanding of Tradition, etc. and then it was Catholic baptism. Now what is it supposed to be?

You can talk about the “weight of the evidence” all you like but everyone here knows that there is no clear teaching or example of infant baptism in the Bible.
No, but there is clear Biblical evidence of it being practiced. There is, by the way, also no ”clear evidence” of a baptism by total immersion.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I agree with: "the words "dead", "alive again" "lost," and "found" are spiritual terms" in the context they are used, however I do not think the intended main point of the parable is what you seem to suggest. The main point, as redleghunter pointed out, is the graciousness unmerited favor of the father. The intention is not to teach fine points of theology, or to create a puzzle, usually they are intended to teach one main point, in the form of stories, perhaps to make them memorable to the hearers. The problem comes in the tendency to treat the spiritual lines of a parable as allegory (repentance is more spiritual than physical, but tends to be both), and it has a detracting if not disassembling effect on the main point.

First, the Bible is consistent in it's use of spiritual terms. Dead means dead in reference to talking spiritually. Lost means lost when talking spiritually. Unless you can prove otherwise with the Bible. For what does the word "dead," "lost," "found," "alive again" mean to you in the Parable of the Prodigal Son? They are speaking in spiritual terms because the son was not physically dead and or physically lost.

Second, the Parable of the Prodigal Son is about repentance for two reasons. One, in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the son plans to repent towards his father to remedy his situation in being reconciled with his father. When he returns home he does exactly that. For the son repents and his father accepts it and there is great rejoicing. Two, the other previous parables are also talking about repentance. So there is a continued theme or point going on here. In the Parable of the Lost Sheep, Jesus says that he goes out and looks for a single lost sheep. When he finds this one lost sheep, he says he rejoices greatly. This is compared to how when a sinner repents, there is great rejoicing in Heaven (Please read Luke 15:1-7 again; And then re-read verse 7 very slowly going over each word with a fine-toothed comb). In the Parable of the Lost Coin, a woman loses her coin (treasure) and she then searches for it diligently and finds it again. The coin or treasure is Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:7 says we have this treasure (Jesus) in earthen vessels (our bodies) showing us that excellency of all true power is of God and not of us. Anyways, when she loses the coin (i.e. the treasure who is Jesus), and she then finds it again, she rejoices greatly. This is then compared to the great rejoicing that happens when one sinner that repents. The Parable of the Prodigal Son is no different. The Prodigal Son comes home with him repenting of him going prodigal (i.e of him being in sin away from the father), and he is then restored and there is great rejoicing. Not sure how you cannot see this obvious lesson in Luke 15. It is very clear, to those who want to see it.

But what does repentance mean? The Parable of the Prodigal Son in light of the previous two parables defines it's meaning for us. Repentance is seeking forgiveness of one's sins with the Lord. This is exactly what the Prodigal Son did whereby there was great rejoicing (Which is what we see in ALL three parables).

In fact, Jesus defines this meaning of repentance again elsewhere for us in Scripture. In Matthew 12:41, Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would be able to read that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to do two very important things.

#1. Cry unto God (i.e. Seek God's forgiveness, Repentance).
#2. Forsake your wicked ways (i.e. the Natural Fruits of Repentance).
Note: Remember, in the NT: John the Baptist told men to bring forth fruits (deeds or actions) worthy of repentance. Meaning to bring forth a changed new life that obeys God's moral laws and who remains fruitful.

Anyways, when God had seen the Ninevites forsake their evil ways, that was the time that God decided to turn back from his bringing wrath or judgment upon the city of Nineveh. So we see that true repentance is seeking God's forgiveness (that is followed by the fruits of repentance, i.e. forsaking one's evil ways). For one is not really sorry about their sin if they turn back around and start to do evil again.

For the son that did the will of the father was the son who repented and actually did what his father said (See the Parable of the Two Sons in Matthew 21:28-32).

I mean, how do you get past things like these?
They are very clear to me when I read it.
How about things like Matthew 25:31-46?
It is essentially saying that if we do not help the poor in this life, we will be cast into everlasting fire.
What about the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25:14-30?
The one who was faithful over a few things was told this by the Lord, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, ... enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (See Matthew 25:21). In other words, the Lord did NOT say, "Good job for trusting in my death and resurrection alone while you ignored doing good works and in obeying me .... please enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." In fact, the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). Gnashing of teeth is also what wolves do. Check out the spoiler image below to see what I am talking about.

Wolves_001.png

Oh, and here is a human example:


angry_man.jpg
 
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Afra

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That is not the basis for anything. I was just saying that you have moved onto a new topic of your choosing. We had been speaking of the Catholic understanding of Tradition, etc. and then it was Catholic baptism. Now what is it supposed to be?


No, but there is clear Biblical evidence of it being practiced. There is, by the way, no ”clear evidence” of a baptism by immersion.
I raised the Catholic Church’s teaching on baptism as the requested example of tradition in my discussion with @redleghunter from the outset. You chose to inject yourself into the discussion that we were having. If you do not like the topic, feel free to withdraw yourself from the discussion.
 
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Albion

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I raised the Catholic Church’s teaching on baptism as the requested example of tradition in my discussion with
Thats fine, although baptism is not an example of Tradition, but all the additional commentary about the administration of baptism, etc. really was off-topic.
 
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Afra

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Thats fine, although baptism is not an example of Tradition, but all the additional commentary about the administration of baptism, etc. really was off-topic.
No, it was not off-topic. The additional comments concerning infant baptism were introduced to refute your claim that baptism in the Catholic Church is not an example of tradition. You are now attempting to construe the matter as being off-topic because it is clear to everyone here that you are badly losing the argument. Again, you may withdraw from the discussion at any time if you do not wish to discuss it.
 
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Albion

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No, it was not off-topic. The additional comments concerning infant baptism were introduced to refute your claim that baptism in the Catholic Church is not an example of tradition.
If you wish. The subject kept changing.
 
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discipler7

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Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."
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For example, the resurrection narrative at the end of Mark (16:9–20) is absent from the Codex Sinaiticus.
What’s Missing from Codex Sinaiticus, the Oldest New Testament? - Biblical Archaeology Society
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The “Strange” Ending of the Gospel of Mark and Why It Makes All the Difference - Biblical Archaeology Society
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It would be unwise to base any proof on MARK.16:9-20. Even if so based, "is baptized" may refer to "baptized by the Holy Spirit" and not "baptized in water".
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1 Peter 3:21 "20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

MATTHEW.3:11 = 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Actually, 1Peter.3:21 was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit by the Lord Jesus Christ who truly cleans/sanctifies His people spiritually, which could not be accomplished by the antitype or symbolic water baptism. ...

1PETER.4:1-2 = 1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

So, you may not have proven your case from Scriptures that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
 
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discipler7

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Regarding Communion:
Luke 22:14-20
14 "When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. 15 Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I say to you, [c]I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me. 20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you."
John 6:53-57 53 "Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [a]food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me."
LUKE.22:14-20 and JOHN.6:53-57 do not say that the Holy Communion(or the Catholic Mass) was necessary for salvation. The verses just say that His death(= shed blood and dying flesh) was necessary for salvation and that the people has to believe in Him for salvation. ...

JOHN.6: = 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. ...

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” ...

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
 
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redleghunter

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People seem to be desperate to believe Martin Luther over the Book of James. You can only choose one.
I think it's a matter of 13 Pauline epistles point out we are justified and saved by God's Grace and not our own works, and one verse in James erroneously interpreted as if canceling out other Scriptures.
 
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redleghunter

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Easy. They make it so difficult because the necessity of baptism brings the house built on "faith plus nothing" crashing down on itself.
Baptism is not a plus anything. It's how new born Christians proclaimed their faith to the church and confirmed their discipleship.
 
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